HTML for Disabled People?

[Michael Wilcox]

Disabled people can't do a lot of things. Bummer, but it is reality.
They have learned to deal with it

Yor're right, they did deal with it: they got a screen reader.

now you need to

I can make a site that's accessible with their screen reader (or braile
reader, or whatever).

Sorry your reader
doe not know how to covert a cartoon or a game into braille

If it was made correctly, no one could be excluded, and it wouldn't need to
be "converted."

But according to you, no one should be able to have fun on the web
because a disabled person can't. No one should be able to do more than
the least of us can do.

I won't comment on your opinion of the handicapped being the "least of us",
but I will offer this example. A building that is raised above ground level
is most often made with steps leading up to its front door. To help those
with disabilities that limit their mobility, a ramp is also built. Both are
made with standards in mind (the steps and the ramp won't be too steep, they
will both be solidly constructed, etc.). Most importantly, they both lead to
the front door. No one is denied access because they can't walk up stairs,
just as no one should be denied access to a site or its content because
their browser doesn't see the site as yours does. They may use different
methods, but they should both reach the same, equal, and best possible goal.

Don't try to bring the bottom end up, rather
bring the top end down.

And how exactly would you "bring up" the handicapped users of your site?

 

[Michael Wilcox]

Completely accessible. Not surprising when you take into
consideration that Flash is 100% 508 compliant, but you probably did
not know that either did you?

Well, I've found no proof for that, but you should provide that not me.
Anyway, can Google read a Flash website? Could a screen reader? Could a PDA?
A PocketPC? Braille reader? Could its text be resized? Could its style
(presentation) be changed?

 

[kchayka]

Yea, it was a rough one. You hit the tab key.

Um, tabbing doesn't go to Flash content. The link to
http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/shop/ is in the Flash navigation menu, as
are the links to the site map and search. Maybe there is some
roundabout way to get there, but there are no other direct links to
these parts of the site.

(don't you feel dumb now?)

No, not at all. How did you manage to get to the Flash menu by tabbing?

 

[kchayka]

Then can you please enlighten us as to how it would benefit those sites
by being completely accessible.

There are degrees of accessibility, like anything else. A site that's
dependent on Flash or JavaScript for navigation can be made accessible
just by including a plain text link to a site map on every page. Please
explain how something like that is _not_ beneficial?

Nope, didn't think so.

Um, I'm still waiting for you to point to a Flash site that actually
passes section 508 guidelines. You keep claiming Flash is accessible,
but I haven't yet seen any proof of it. And no demos, please, I want to
see it in practice.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

Tabbing and pressing enter allows you to do everything

Doesn't here. Checked in Moz 1.4 and Opera 7.23

 

[Whitecrest]

Well, I've found no proof for that, but you should provide that not me.

Go to their website and see their statement, I am Pretty sure the
government would not allow them to state they were 100% 508 compliant if
they were not. (not to mention the government uses flash on many of
their sites, ESPECIALLY those sites directed at kids. (NASA is a good
example)

Anyway, can Google read a Flash website? Could a screen reader? Could a PDA?
A PocketPC? Braille reader? Could its text be resized? Could its style
(presentation) be changed?

Who cares? Pay attention now ok?

1. The site was not designed to directly make money. It was designed
to brand kids to their TV station so they would watch the shows, and the
commercials. Cartoon network makes their money from commercials,

2. They get their audience (kids and parents) by providing them a
clean, safe, fun environment to come to. The FUN and GAMES comes from
Flash.

3. CURRENTLY the only way to present these GAMES to the LARGEST audience
they can, is by using Flash. Next year something new might have better
coverage of browsers (and pdas), but right now, your only option is
Flash.

Now.....

If they stopped using Flash, Oh joy, all the disabled people in the
world can see the site, Everyone could read and look at pictures. What
a great world we live in we have made the site accessible to everyone!

But sadly, as soon as you removed the GAMES and the FUN, all the kids
with no handicap (by fat the VAST majority) have left and gone to a site
that offers GAMES and FUN things to do. But Cartoon network can hold
their head high as they go in to chapter 13 because they lost their
customer base.

People, the site is there for advertising. Millions of sites are there
for advertising. Nothing else. They are not meant for everyone. It
does not matter if a small number of people can see it or not. It does
not matter if google can search it or not. None of that is important to
sites like these.

(Now look here really closely, I am about to agree with everything you
believe in.)

If the site is there to directly make money, or offer information, then
yes, by all means you want to be able to have as many people as you can
buy something or access something. The most important thing you can do
is to make sure that your site is as accessible as you can make it.

(End of agreeing with you)

But that is not why entertainment based sites are out there. They are
there to provide entertainment or advertising. They are there for fun.
The CONTENT is the fun and GAMES.

I am sorry, to all those that can not for what ever reason cannot enjoy
the entertainment sites. But it would be a bigger loss to the host
company to lose the FUN and GAMES and make the sites accessible to
everyone, than turning away a few, and giving the masses the FUN and
GAMES.

So let me ask again. How do you think that making entertainment sites
100% accessible would help the company?

The answer is, it wouldn't.

 

[Whitecrest]

Doesn't here. Checked in Moz 1.4 and Opera 7.23

Then you are one of the unlucky ones that can't enjoy the fun and games.
bummer because some of them are pretty clever.

 

[Whitecrest]

Yor're right, they did deal with it: they got a screen reader.

Bummer, there are no text based games they can play on the site.

If it was made correctly, no one could be excluded, and it wouldn't need to
be "converted."

Please tell me how to make a game into text, and keep it fun, because we
will make billions.

They may use different
methods, but they should both reach the same, equal, and best possible goal.

The site is there to PLAY GAMES nothing else. Please show me a way to
make a game usable to all and I will gladly do it, but you can't.

 

[Whitecrest]

Um, tabbing doesn't go to Flash content. The link to
http://www.cartoonnetwork.com/shop/ is in the Flash navigation menu, as
are the links to the site map and search. Maybe there is some
roundabout way to get there, but there are no other direct links to
these parts of the site.
No, not at all. How did you manage to get to the Flash menu by tabbing?

Tabbing rotates from the browser to the Flash menu on my machine. Guess
you are one of the few that can not enjoy the site, sucks to be you.

No loss though because there is a good chance you found out about the
website from my TV station which means you already watching the
commercials. And I don't really make money from the site since the
primary reason for the site is FUN and GAMES, there is no significant
revenue loss because you cannot play the games. (Or view the Flash
animation for a movie, or the coke site what ever....)

So it is not a revenue loss, and you will continue to watch Sponge Bob,
because you like Sponge Bob, even though you can not play the games. (Or
you will continue to drink coke, or go to the movie, or what ever.)

It is a win win situation for the client. They loose nothing by you not
being able to play the games.

(Ok, now you can say "if I can't play the games, then I won't watch the
TV show anymore, or I won't drink coke, or bla bla". Yea, that will
really happen...)

The site was not made to be accessible to all. There is no reason to go
there if you don't use flash and javascript, or if you need a head
stick, or a reader, or a PDA to brows, So while a few cannot use it, it
is completely effective being there for MOST of us.

 

[Whitecrest]

There are degrees of accessibility, like anything else. A site that's
dependent on Flash or JavaScript for navigation can be made accessible
just by including a plain text link to a site map on every page. Please
explain how something like that is _not_ beneficial?

And what would you do with that link? Go to a different game you can't
play? The site is there for entertainment and advertising,
accessibility is meaningless in this context.

 

[Matthias Gutfeldt]

Tabbing rotates from the browser to the Flash menu on my machine. Guess
you are one of the few that can not enjoy the site, sucks to be you.

No loss though because there is a good chance you found out about the
website from my TV station

You have a TV station?


Matthias

 

[kchayka]

And what would you do with that link? Go to a different game you can't
play? The site is there for entertainment and advertising,
accessibility is meaningless in this context.

What site are you talking about now? The cartoon network site, one of
your favorite examples, has a lot of stuff on it besides games and
advertising. Or didn't you notice?

 

[Whitecrest]

You have a TV station?

Are you telling me you are so dumb that you could not follow the
context?

Now you are just getting silly because you know I am right.

 

[Whitecrest]

What site are you talking about now? The cartoon network site, one of
your favorite examples, has a lot of stuff on it besides games and
advertising. Or didn't you notice?

The primary goal of the site is entertainment. that is who they are
catering to.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

Please tell me how to make a game into text, and keep it fun,

Google: 0verkill

;-)

 

[nice.guy.nige]

(e-mail address removed) says... [...]

They may use different
methods, but they should both reach the same, equal, and best
possible goal.

The site is there to PLAY GAMES nothing else. Please show me a way to
make a game usable to all and I will gladly do it, but you can't.

Hang on. I thought you said it shows cartoons as well? Please make your mind
up.

On the subject of cartoons on the site, and accessibility, and the
continuing assumption that making a site accessible just means catering for
blind users, and your continuing assumption that such blind users will not
be able to enjoy the cartoons as they can't see them, so no point making
them accessible...

.... Did you know that here in the UK you can get a discount on your TV
license if you are blind? When I first read that, I thought "huh?"... then I
realised... they *listen* to it, and presumably get enjoyment out of it, or
they wouldn't bother having a TV! So... can they listen to the cartoons now,
please?

Cheers,
Nige

--
Nigel Moss.

Email address is not valid. (e-mail address removed). Take the dog out!
http://www.nigenet.org.uk | Boycott E$$O!! http://www.stopesso.com
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is very, very busy!

 

[Whitecrest]

Hang on. I thought you said it shows cartoons as well? Please make your mind
up.

Silly rabbit. Please don't pretend to be that stupid, became I know
your not.

... Did you know that here in the UK you can get a discount on your TV
license if you are blind? When I first read that, I thought "huh?"... then I
realised... they *listen* to it, and presumably get enjoyment out of it, or
they wouldn't bother having a TV! So... can they listen to the cartoons now,
please?

They can listen to it now with any browser that supports Flash.

 

[Michael Wilcox]

They can listen to it now with any browser that supports Flash.

And how does a screen reader read a Flash document? Certainly they can't use
a visual browser, as they would have no idea where to click.

 

[Whitecrest]

And how does a screen reader read a Flash document? Certainly they can't use
a visual browser, as they would have no idea where to click.

They they are left out in the cold. Tough shit.

 

[Michael Wilcox]

They they are left out in the cold. Tough shit.

Fine, next time you get a web design job, make sure to tell them you are
ignorant of and mean to the blind and other diasbled. Oh, and be sure to
mention you know nothing about carrying on reasonable personal interaction
and how you ignore any outside opinions.