HTML old newbie

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Jim Scott, Mar 14, 2005.

  1. Jim Scott

    Jim Scott Guest

    I use Frontpage, mainly because I have it, but there is lots written about
    how it has lots of bloat etc. I am playing with both DWeaver (and
    Nvu/Composer) to see how they compare.
    My site (below) is mainly pictures and links.
    There are two things FP does that I see no alternative to in either DW or
    Nvu, well not without learning html and I'm too long in the tooth for that:
    these are rollover colour change in link (essential) and the ability to
    have fancy titles without going back to a graphics program (FP uses
    Wordart).
    If I insist on these two things do I simply have to live with the bloat or
    am I not looking in the right place?
    --
    Jim on Tyneside UK
    Remove X to email me.
    http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/
    Jim Scott, Mar 14, 2005
    #1
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  2. Jim Scott

    Guest

    Jim Scott wrote:
    > I use Frontpage, mainly because I have it, but there is lots written

    about
    > how it has lots of bloat etc. I am playing with both DWeaver (and
    > Nvu/Composer) to see how they compare.
    > My site (below) is mainly pictures and links.
    > There are two things FP does that I see no alternative to in either

    DW or
    > Nvu, well not without learning html and I'm too long in the tooth for

    that:
    > these are rollover colour change in link (essential) and the ability

    to
    > have fancy titles without going back to a graphics program (FP uses
    > Wordart).


    WordArt - classy. Download something like XaraX (http:/.www.xara.com/)
    for graphics. It's reasonably priced and user friendly.

    As for roll-over colour change, that's hardly essential, but it's easy
    to do with CSS. Google for something along the lines of "CSS link
    hover colour change".

    http://www.htmlkit.com/ is a great, free HTML editor that will do you
    far more favours than FP or DW will until you're more familiar with the
    markup.

    --
    Hywel

    --
    Hywel
    , Mar 14, 2005
    #2
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  3. Jim Scott

    Lachlan Hunt Guest

    Jim Scott wrote:
    > I use Frontpage


    http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/

    > , mainly because I have it, but there is lots written about
    > how it has lots of bloat etc.


    Bloat is an understatement.

    > I am playing with both DWeaver (and Nvu/Composer) to see how they compare.


    Generally, if you use any WYSIWYG editor, you're bound to end up with
    major issues due to the fact you're trying to edit a non-presentational
    language using a presentational tool. Unfortunately, good HTML requires
    semantic markup which simply cannot come from the use of a WYSIWYG tool
    without a lot of knowledge and experience of handcoding well structured
    and semantic markup.

    > My site is mainly pictures and links.
    > http://freespace.virgin.net/mr.jimscott/


    There's still no reason for the excessive use of layout tables and
    presentational elements and attributes.

    Compare the markup generated with frontpage with this sample of the kind
    of markup *required* to produce a page like yours.

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
    <title>Jim's Homepage</title>
    </head>

    <body>
    <div id="header">
    <h1>Jim's Website</h1>
    <img src="/images/tn_Northunbria_flag_small.jpg" alt="..." height="44"
    width="56">
    <img src="/images/jimsmall48.jpg" alt="..." height="56" width="48">
    </div>

    <ul id="photos">
    <li><a href="#"><img src="image" alt="" height="50" width="50"> Local
    History</a></li>
    <li><a href="#"><img src="image" alt="" height="50" width="50"> Jim's
    Photos</a></li>

    <!-- Add a new list item for each image and link -->

    </ul>

    <ul id="other-links">
    <li><a href="#">LOCAL LINKS</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">CHRIST CHURCH BELLRINGERS' PAGES</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">FAMILY</a></li>
    </ul>


    </body>
    </html>

    Seriously, that's about it! Of course, you'd need to fix up a few of
    the links, image references, alt text, etc. But that's about the length
    of the markup you'd need to create a page like yours. Isn't that easier
    compared with trying to learn from the FP garbage?

    Of course, it doesn't look anything like the current page in a browser,
    but that's because HTML is *not* a presentational language and that's
    what CSS is for.

    > There are two things FP does that I see no alternative to in either DW or
    > Nvu, well not without learning html and I'm too long in the tooth for that:


    It may seem so when your presented with the monstrosity of code that FP
    produces, but it's really not that hard. I wrote the above in about 15
    minutes and it really is about all you need to markup that entire
    document. A stylesheet could probably be done in less than 20 lines of
    CSS (maybe as little a 5 lines), though CSS is a little harder than HTML.

    > these are rollover colour change in link (essential)


    Using CSS, this stylesheet will do that.
    Place this within the <head> section to achieve the same colours as your
    current page

    <style type="text/css">
    body { color: black; background-color: #99ccff; }
    :link { color: black; }
    :visited { color: #000080; }
    :link:hover: {color: #ff0000; }
    :link:active { color: #003300; }
    </style>

    Use of an external stylesheet is recommend though.


    > and the ability to have fancy titles without going back to a graphics program (FP uses
    > Wordart).


    You could always generate the images using FP if you like, then save
    them and import them into another editor.

    > If I insist on these two things do I simply have to live with the bloat or
    > am I not looking in the right place?


    No, you most certainly don't have to live with the bloat. Learn to hand
    code properly, and you'll never go back to WYSIWYG editors again!

    --
    Lachlan Hunt
    http://lachy.id.au/
    http://GetFirefox.com/ Rediscover the Web
    http://GetThunderbird.com/ Reclaim your Inbox
    Lachlan Hunt, Mar 14, 2005
    #3
  4. Jim Scott

    JDS Guest

    JDS, Mar 14, 2005
    #4
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