html wrapper

Discussion in 'HTML' started by jmev7, Mar 19, 2006.

  1. jmev7

    jmev7 Guest

    I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
    linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this time,
    but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
    first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
    how this is done, and is it legal?

    Thanks.
     
    jmev7, Mar 19, 2006
    #1
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  2. jmev7

    Ed Mullen Guest

    jmev7 wrote:
    > I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
    > linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this time,
    > but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
    > first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
    > how this is done, and is it legal?
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    >


    Frames. Legal? I suppose some situations could run afoul of copyright
    law. Good design? NOT!

    --
    Ed Mullen
    http://edmullen.net
    http://mozilla.edmullen.net
    http://abington.edmullen.net
     
    Ed Mullen, Mar 19, 2006
    #2
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  3. On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:11:46 +0100, jmev7 <> wrote:

    > I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    > them,
    > linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this
    > time,
    > but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
    > first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
    > how this is done,


    Using iframes or normal frames.

    > and is it legal?


    Good question. The answer depends on whether the author owner of the
    framed page knows about it and agreed with it I suppose, especially when
    the page is presented to be part of the site of someone else. There must
    be a thin red line one shouldn't cross somewhere, but I imagine it varies
    with circumstances.

    So if you are author/owner of the site you would like to inlcude in a page
    of another site or yours, no problem. If you would like to include someone
    elses site, just explain them what you're trying to do and ask them how
    they would feel about it.

    --
    ______PretLetters:
    | weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
    | webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
    |zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Mar 19, 2006
    #3
  4. jmev7

    jmev7 Guest

    All good advice, thanks. I was primarily interested in taking advantage of a
    built in feature of a content management system. I guess I should ask that
    company as well.

    Thanks.




    "Barbara de Zoete" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:p.s6n0kjezl8uz2z@zoete_b...
    > On Sun, 19 Mar 2006 15:11:46 +0100, jmev7 <> wrote:
    >
    >> I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    >> them,
    >> linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this
    >> time,
    >> but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
    >> first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
    >> how this is done,

    >
    > Using iframes or normal frames.
    >
    >> and is it legal?

    >
    > Good question. The answer depends on whether the author owner of the
    > framed page knows about it and agreed with it I suppose, especially when
    > the page is presented to be part of the site of someone else. There must
    > be a thin red line one shouldn't cross somewhere, but I imagine it varies
    > with circumstances.
    >
    > So if you are author/owner of the site you would like to inlcude in a page
    > of another site or yours, no problem. If you would like to include someone
    > elses site, just explain them what you're trying to do and ask them how
    > they would feel about it.
    >
    > --
    > ______PretLetters:
    > | weblog | http://www.pretletters.net/weblog/weblog.html |
    > | webontwerp | http://www.pretletters.net/html/webontwerp.html |
    > |zweefvliegen | http://www.pretletters.net/html/vliegen.html |
     
    jmev7, Mar 20, 2006
    #4
  5. jmev7 wrote:

    > I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
    > linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this time,
    > but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
    > first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
    > how this is done, and is it legal?


    A quick example is google image search. When you select a google image to
    look at, it loads the target site in a frame on the lower portion of the
    viewport, with a google title bar across the top.

    Framesets are probably the easy way to incorporate other sites into your
    own. In-line frames could also be used. I think they have their purpose,
    like google's image search, however I also think they are overused.

    I am sure you could also use SSI and/or server side scripts to grab all or
    portions of some other webpage and include it in your own. I can see doing
    this as a test of programming skills, but I can not think of a practical
    purpose. That isn't to say there isn't one, just that I can't think of it.

    As for it being legal? I am not a lawyer, but here is my take on the
    subject. I can take a can of Splitzo Paint and use it in my storefront
    window display. I don't need to contact Splitzo Paint to do so, even if my
    store sells used hockey equipment. (I might want to, as they might give me
    a break on the cost of the can in exchange for the advertising, but that is
    a different issue.)

    I can present a seminar to a group of blond haired poodles. In the seminar,
    I can quote a paragraph from a sci-fi book I have just read. I am required
    to credit the source, but I don't have to ask them permission first.

    I can use someone else's content on my site, again, if I credit the source.
    If I am configuring my site to tell your browser to load a piece of their
    content, into a section of the viewport displaying my site, I would give
    credit. It wouldn't even have to be a link, just credit. There is some
    controversy over this practise, specifically in relation to images. As far
    as I know, it isn't illegal, it is frowned upon in some circle however.

    Now, can I copy the content to my site to display it? That would depend on
    the source's copyrights. I would check first, and I would keep a copy of
    the copyright statement at that time. I would also check with your local
    laws.

    In Canada, as I understand it, anything can be copied for educational and
    research purposes. If I am teaching music, I can copy that new CD to help
    my student practise. If I am a science teacher, I can copy that article
    out of Popular Science to give to the students. If I am researching the
    cultural influence of cell phones on web site design, I can copy web sites.

    The tricky part come in posting things back on the net. If I copy stuff in
    Canada, for educational reasons, then I have not broken the Canadian
    copyright law. If I post it to my educational site, hosted in Canada, then
    I still have not broken Canadian copyright law. If my hosting company has
    a backup server in the UK, then I better check with UK law.

    It would probably be a good idea for me to check any laws in any region of
    the world I might want to visit in the future. If I have copied something
    from a site hosted in America, I may have broken American law. If the
    original source decided to pursue the situation, there is little they could
    do as long as I stayed out of the states. I doubt that I would get
    extradited to the states in a situation like this. However if I crossed
    into America, my name could very well be flagged at the border.

    Disclaimer: The legal advise presented in this message is provided by
    someone with almost no legal training what so ever. I did take a two
    month community college business law course. If you want accurate legal
    opinion, fork out the bucks and seek a lawyer. If you want my uneducated
    opinion, feel free to ask me.

    Carolyn
    --
    Carolyn Marenger
     
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 20, 2006
    #5
  6. jmev7

    PeterMcC Guest

    Carolyn Marenger wrote in
    <71dca$441e7be0$cf706a7e$>

    > jmev7 wrote:
    >
    >> I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    >> them, linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any
    >> at this time, but some appear to link to other sites, but when you
    >> click the links, the first site maintains their header in the target
    >> page. Can someone tell me how this is done, and is it legal?

    >
    > A quick example is google image search. When you select a google
    > image to look at, it loads the target site in a frame on the lower
    > portion of the viewport, with a google title bar across the top.
    >
    > Framesets are probably the easy way to incorporate other sites into
    > your own. In-line frames could also be used. I think they have
    > their purpose, like google's image search, however I also think they
    > are overused.
    >
    > I am sure you could also use SSI and/or server side scripts to grab
    > all or portions of some other webpage and include it in your own. I
    > can see doing this as a test of programming skills, but I can not
    > think of a practical purpose. That isn't to say there isn't one,
    > just that I can't think of it.
    >
    > As for it being legal? I am not a lawyer, but here is my take on the
    > subject. I can take a can of Splitzo Paint and use it in my
    > storefront window display. I don't need to contact Splitzo Paint to
    > do so, even if my store sells used hockey equipment. (I might want
    > to, as they might give me a break on the cost of the can in exchange
    > for the advertising, but that is a different issue.)
    >
    > I can present a seminar to a group of blond haired poodles. In the
    > seminar, I can quote a paragraph from a sci-fi book I have just read.
    > I am required to credit the source, but I don't have to ask them
    > permission first.
    >
    > I can use someone else's content on my site, again, if I credit the
    > source. If I am configuring my site to tell your browser to load a
    > piece of their content, into a section of the viewport displaying my
    > site, I would give credit. It wouldn't even have to be a link, just
    > credit. There is some controversy over this practise, specifically
    > in relation to images. As far as I know, it isn't illegal, it is
    > frowned upon in some circle however.
    >
    > Now, can I copy the content to my site to display it? That would
    > depend on the source's copyrights. I would check first, and I would
    > keep a copy of the copyright statement at that time. I would also
    > check with your local laws.
    >
    > In Canada, as I understand it, anything can be copied for educational
    > and research purposes. If I am teaching music, I can copy that new
    > CD to help my student practise. If I am a science teacher, I can
    > copy that article out of Popular Science to give to the students. If
    > I am researching the cultural influence of cell phones on web site
    > design, I can copy web sites.
    >
    > The tricky part come in posting things back on the net. If I copy
    > stuff in Canada, for educational reasons, then I have not broken the
    > Canadian copyright law. If I post it to my educational site, hosted
    > in Canada, then I still have not broken Canadian copyright law. If
    > my hosting company has a backup server in the UK, then I better check
    > with UK law.
    >
    > It would probably be a good idea for me to check any laws in any
    > region of the world I might want to visit in the future. If I have
    > copied something from a site hosted in America, I may have broken
    > American law. If the original source decided to pursue the
    > situation, there is little they could do as long as I stayed out of
    > the states. I doubt that I would get extradited to the states in a
    > situation like this. However if I crossed into America, my name
    > could very well be flagged at the border.
    >
    > Disclaimer: The legal advise presented in this message is provided by
    > someone with almost no legal training what so ever. I did take a two
    > month community college business law course. If you want accurate
    > legal opinion, fork out the bucks and seek a lawyer. If you want my
    > uneducated opinion, feel free to ask me.


    With respect, I'm afraid that the legal advice given in the above is a long
    way from accurate and it would appear, from the examples given, that the
    poster is herself breaking copyright law in a number of instances.

    If avoiding a breach of copyright is important to the OP, I'd suggest they
    did further research or sought qualified advice - as, indeed, the poster
    suggests.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Mar 20, 2006
    #6
  7. jmev7

    Jim Higson Guest

    jmev7 wrote:

    > I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
    > linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?


    Under which country's laws?

    My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells the
    browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't copyrightable
    information.

    --
    Jim
     
    Jim Higson, Mar 20, 2006
    #7
  8. jmev7

    PeterMcC Guest

    Jim Higson wrote in
    <>

    > jmev7 wrote:
    >
    >> I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    >> them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

    >
    > Under which country's laws?
    >
    > My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
    > the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
    > copyrightable information.


    You might want to double check that interpretation.

    If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
    gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
    of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.

    --
    PeterMcC
    If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
    inappropriate or offensive in any way,
    please ignore it and accept my apologies.
     
    PeterMcC, Mar 20, 2006
    #8
  9. jmev7

    Jim Higson Guest

    PeterMcC wrote:

    > Jim Higson wrote in
    > <>
    >
    >> jmev7 wrote:
    >>
    >>> I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    >>> them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

    >>
    >> Under which country's laws?
    >>
    >> My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
    >> the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
    >> copyrightable information.

    >
    > You might want to double check that interpretation.


    Nah, since I'll probably never do a site with frames, I'm quite happy in my
    legally permissive bubble.

    > If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
    > gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
    > of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.


    In which country?

    Is there any precedence where telling the browser where a resource is
    availiable is treated the same as copying the resource onto your own
    servers? A frameset is only a special kind of linking, and it seems
    ridiculous that hyperlinking to a copyrighted resource is infringement.

    This seems roughly equivalent to all the sites serving torrent files for
    their users' trackers. Under the USA's very strict copyright law the DMCA
    has been used against such bittorrent sites, but elsewhere noone has been
    successful in court against these sites. (see
    http://thepiratebay.org/legal.php for some good examples!)

    Thankfully I don't live in the US, nor a country the US has "encouraged" to
    "harmonise" copyright law.

    If taking someone else's work and displaying it in your work is an
    infringement, browser writers better be worried!

    Btw, if anyone does this to your site, and you'd rather they wouldn't, you
    can always block them by checking the REFERER header.
    --
    Jim
     
    Jim Higson, Mar 20, 2006
    #9
  10. PeterMcC wrote:

    > Jim Higson wrote in
    > <>
    >
    >> jmev7 wrote:
    >>
    >>> I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    >>> them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

    >>
    >> Under which country's laws?
    >>
    >> My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
    >> the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
    >> copyrightable information.

    >
    > You might want to double check that interpretation.
    >
    > If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
    > gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
    > of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.


    On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct your
    browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my pages. My
    site however, has not displayed any information from the third party's
    site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow frameset
    instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only provided a link to
    the third party's page and instructions on where to display the content.

    Carolyn
    --
    Carolyn Marenger
     
    Carolyn Marenger, Mar 20, 2006
    #10
  11. On Mon, 20 Mar 2006, Carolyn Marenger wrote:

    > On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct
    > your browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my
    > pages. My site however, has not displayed any information from the
    > third party's site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow
    > frameset instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only
    > provided a link to the third party's page and instructions on where
    > to display the content.


    In the cases that I've heard of, the offender decided to settle out of
    court, rather than try to persuade the judge(s) of the applicabiity of
    these web technicalities.

    It's not sufficient that we manage to convince each other - no matter
    how well we agree amongst ourselves - for, as a certain commentator
    put it[1], "Never will the lawyers relent, till all the client's
    money's been spent".

    cheers

    [1]Oh - curiously, google doesn't seem to know where that comes from.
    But I do. Well, perhaps the wording isn't quite spot on...? Anyone
    else?
     
    Alan J. Flavell, Mar 20, 2006
    #11
  12. jmev7

    Jose Guest

    > On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct your
    > browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my pages. My
    > site however, has not displayed any information from the third party's
    > site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow frameset
    > instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only provided a link to
    > the third party's page and instructions on where to display the content.


    On a similar technicality, when I copy my friend's MP3, the computer is
    merely following my instructions also. I am not doing the copying, I am
    merely telling the operating system where the data is and giving it
    standard file instructions; the operating system does the retrieving,
    processing, and storing.

    Frames are another instance in which the idea of copyright is being
    stretched. To address the fundamental question of right or wrong one
    must look beyong technicalities.

    =Should= it be considered wrong (and thus made illegal) to appropriate
    somebody else's content in such a way as to represent it as yours via
    frames (or other means), even if no copying is involved? This is
    similar to the question of whether =actually= copying intellectual
    property should be considered wrong (and thus illegal) even though
    (unlike chattel) the original remains with the owner.

    Jose
    --
    Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
     
    Jose, Mar 20, 2006
    #12
  13. jmev7

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Carolyn Marenger quothed:

    > PeterMcC wrote:
    >
    > > Jim Higson wrote in
    > > <>
    > >
    > >> jmev7 wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
    > >>> them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?
    > >>
    > >> Under which country's laws?
    > >>
    > >> My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
    > >> the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
    > >> copyrightable information.

    > >
    > > You might want to double check that interpretation.
    > >
    > > If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
    > > gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
    > > of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.

    >
    > On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct your
    > browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my pages. My
    > site however, has not displayed any information from the third party's
    > site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow frameset
    > instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only provided a link to
    > the third party's page and instructions on where to display the content.


    You provided the _means_ to display it which is under your auspices and,
    therefore, contendable. This is different than a mere link; your
    framework (yuk yuk) makes the "copy" available in another and additional
    form, so in (US) superior court, Perry Mason would make mince meat out
    of you.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Mar 20, 2006
    #13
  14. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Neredbojias
    <> writing in
    news::

    >> On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct
    >> your browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my
    >> pages. My site however, has not displayed any information from the
    >> third party's site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow
    >> frameset instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only
    >> provided a link to the third party's page and instructions on where to
    >> display the content.

    >


    Yes, and if the address in the URL bar is http://www.example.com but the
    content is from http://www.microsoft.com and there is nothing stating that
    it _is_ http://www.microsoft.com, then I could be accused of trying to pass
    Micorsoft's content as my own.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell
    Please respond to the group so others can share
     
    Adrienne Boswell, Mar 20, 2006
    #14
  15. jmev7

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Adrienne Boswell quothed:

    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Neredbojias
    > <> writing in
    > news::
    >
    > >> On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct
    > >> your browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my
    > >> pages. My site however, has not displayed any information from the
    > >> third party's site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow
    > >> frameset instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only
    > >> provided a link to the third party's page and instructions on where to
    > >> display the content.

    > >

    >
    > Yes, and if the address in the URL bar is http://www.example.com but the
    > content is from http://www.microsoft.com and there is nothing stating that
    > it _is_ http://www.microsoft.com, then I could be accused of trying to pass
    > Micorsoft's content as my own.


    Exactly. US copyright-ownership law may (arguably) be too extensive,
    but I have no problem with that.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Mar 20, 2006
    #15
  16. jmev7

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Carolyn Marenger wrote:

    > I only provided a link to the third party's page and instructions on
    > where to display the content.


    True, but there exists a legal concept of "passing off" -- i.e. you could
    be considered to be passing off somebody's pages as your own work.

    Of course, if you make it clear by your link text that the page is not
    your own work, preferably giving credit to its author, then you're not
    passing off.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Mar 21, 2006
    #16
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