html wrapper

[jmev7]

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this time,
but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
how this is done, and is it legal?

Thanks.

 

[Ed Mullen]

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this time,
but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
how this is done, and is it legal?

Thanks.

Frames. Legal? I suppose some situations could run afoul of copyright
law. Good design? NOT!

 

[Barbara de Zoete]

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
them,
linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this
time,
but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
how this is done,

Using iframes or normal frames.

and is it legal?

Good question. The answer depends on whether the author owner of the
framed page knows about it and agreed with it I suppose, especially when
the page is presented to be part of the site of someone else. There must
be a thin red line one shouldn't cross somewhere, but I imagine it varies
with circumstances.

So if you are author/owner of the site you would like to inlcude in a page
of another site or yours, no problem. If you would like to include someone
elses site, just explain them what you're trying to do and ask them how
they would feel about it.

 

[jmev7]

All good advice, thanks. I was primarily interested in taking advantage of a
built in feature of a content management system. I guess I should ask that
company as well.

Thanks.

 

[Carolyn Marenger]

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
linking them as if they were their own. I can't think of any at this time,
but some appear to link to other sites, but when you click the links, the
first site maintains their header in the target page. Can someone tell me
how this is done, and is it legal?

A quick example is google image search. When you select a google image to
look at, it loads the target site in a frame on the lower portion of the
viewport, with a google title bar across the top.

Framesets are probably the easy way to incorporate other sites into your
own. In-line frames could also be used. I think they have their purpose,
like google's image search, however I also think they are overused.

I am sure you could also use SSI and/or server side scripts to grab all or
portions of some other webpage and include it in your own. I can see doing
this as a test of programming skills, but I can not think of a practical
purpose. That isn't to say there isn't one, just that I can't think of it.

As for it being legal? I am not a lawyer, but here is my take on the
subject. I can take a can of Splitzo Paint and use it in my storefront
window display. I don't need to contact Splitzo Paint to do so, even if my
store sells used hockey equipment. (I might want to, as they might give me
a break on the cost of the can in exchange for the advertising, but that is
a different issue.)

I can present a seminar to a group of blond haired poodles. In the seminar,
I can quote a paragraph from a sci-fi book I have just read. I am required
to credit the source, but I don't have to ask them permission first.

I can use someone else's content on my site, again, if I credit the source.
If I am configuring my site to tell your browser to load a piece of their
content, into a section of the viewport displaying my site, I would give
credit. It wouldn't even have to be a link, just credit. There is some
controversy over this practise, specifically in relation to images. As far
as I know, it isn't illegal, it is frowned upon in some circle however.

Now, can I copy the content to my site to display it? That would depend on
the source's copyrights. I would check first, and I would keep a copy of
the copyright statement at that time. I would also check with your local
laws.

In Canada, as I understand it, anything can be copied for educational and
research purposes. If I am teaching music, I can copy that new CD to help
my student practise. If I am a science teacher, I can copy that article
out of Popular Science to give to the students. If I am researching the
cultural influence of cell phones on web site design, I can copy web sites.

The tricky part come in posting things back on the net. If I copy stuff in
Canada, for educational reasons, then I have not broken the Canadian
copyright law. If I post it to my educational site, hosted in Canada, then
I still have not broken Canadian copyright law. If my hosting company has
a backup server in the UK, then I better check with UK law.

It would probably be a good idea for me to check any laws in any region of
the world I might want to visit in the future. If I have copied something
from a site hosted in America, I may have broken American law. If the
original source decided to pursue the situation, there is little they could
do as long as I stayed out of the states. I doubt that I would get
extradited to the states in a situation like this. However if I crossed
into America, my name could very well be flagged at the border.

Disclaimer: The legal advise presented in this message is provided by
someone with almost no legal training what so ever. I did take a two
month community college business law course. If you want accurate legal
opinion, fork out the bucks and seek a lawyer. If you want my uneducated
opinion, feel free to ask me.

Carolyn

 

[PeterMcC]

Carolyn Marenger wrote in

A quick example is google image search. When you select a google
image to look at, it loads the target site in a frame on the lower
portion of the viewport, with a google title bar across the top.

Framesets are probably the easy way to incorporate other sites into
your own. In-line frames could also be used. I think they have
their purpose, like google's image search, however I also think they
are overused.

I am sure you could also use SSI and/or server side scripts to grab
all or portions of some other webpage and include it in your own. I
can see doing this as a test of programming skills, but I can not
think of a practical purpose. That isn't to say there isn't one,
just that I can't think of it.

As for it being legal? I am not a lawyer, but here is my take on the
subject. I can take a can of Splitzo Paint and use it in my
storefront window display. I don't need to contact Splitzo Paint to
do so, even if my store sells used hockey equipment. (I might want
to, as they might give me a break on the cost of the can in exchange
for the advertising, but that is a different issue.)

I can present a seminar to a group of blond haired poodles. In the
seminar, I can quote a paragraph from a sci-fi book I have just read.
I am required to credit the source, but I don't have to ask them
permission first.

I can use someone else's content on my site, again, if I credit the
source. If I am configuring my site to tell your browser to load a
piece of their content, into a section of the viewport displaying my
site, I would give credit. It wouldn't even have to be a link, just
credit. There is some controversy over this practise, specifically
in relation to images. As far as I know, it isn't illegal, it is
frowned upon in some circle however.

Now, can I copy the content to my site to display it? That would
depend on the source's copyrights. I would check first, and I would
keep a copy of the copyright statement at that time. I would also
check with your local laws.

In Canada, as I understand it, anything can be copied for educational
and research purposes. If I am teaching music, I can copy that new
CD to help my student practise. If I am a science teacher, I can
copy that article out of Popular Science to give to the students. If
I am researching the cultural influence of cell phones on web site
design, I can copy web sites.

The tricky part come in posting things back on the net. If I copy
stuff in Canada, for educational reasons, then I have not broken the
Canadian copyright law. If I post it to my educational site, hosted
in Canada, then I still have not broken Canadian copyright law. If
my hosting company has a backup server in the UK, then I better check
with UK law.

It would probably be a good idea for me to check any laws in any
region of the world I might want to visit in the future. If I have
copied something from a site hosted in America, I may have broken
American law. If the original source decided to pursue the
situation, there is little they could do as long as I stayed out of
the states. I doubt that I would get extradited to the states in a
situation like this. However if I crossed into America, my name
could very well be flagged at the border.

Disclaimer: The legal advise presented in this message is provided by
someone with almost no legal training what so ever. I did take a two
month community college business law course. If you want accurate
legal opinion, fork out the bucks and seek a lawyer. If you want my
uneducated opinion, feel free to ask me.

With respect, I'm afraid that the legal advice given in the above is a long
way from accurate and it would appear, from the examples given, that the
poster is herself breaking copyright law in a number of instances.

If avoiding a breach of copyright is important to the OP, I'd suggest they
did further research or sought qualified advice - as, indeed, the poster
suggests.

 

[Jim Higson]

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within them,
linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

Under which country's laws?

My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells the
browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't copyrightable
information.

 

[PeterMcC]

Jim Higson wrote in

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

Under which country's laws?

My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
copyrightable information.

You might want to double check that interpretation.

If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.

 

[Jim Higson]

Jim Higson wrote in

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

Under which country's laws?

My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
copyrightable information.

You might want to double check that interpretation.

Nah, since I'll probably never do a site with frames, I'm quite happy in my
legally permissive bubble.

If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.

In which country?

Is there any precedence where telling the browser where a resource is
availiable is treated the same as copying the resource onto your own
servers? A frameset is only a special kind of linking, and it seems
ridiculous that hyperlinking to a copyrighted resource is infringement.

This seems roughly equivalent to all the sites serving torrent files for
their users' trackers. Under the USA's very strict copyright law the DMCA
has been used against such bittorrent sites, but elsewhere noone has been
successful in court against these sites. (see
http://thepiratebay.org/legal.php for some good examples!)

Thankfully I don't live in the US, nor a country the US has "encouraged" to
"harmonise" copyright law.

If taking someone else's work and displaying it in your work is an
infringement, browser writers better be worried!

Btw, if anyone does this to your site, and you'd rather they wouldn't, you
can always block them by checking the REFERER header.

 

[Carolyn Marenger]

Jim Higson wrote in

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

Under which country's laws?

My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
copyrightable information.

You might want to double check that interpretation.

If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.

On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct your
browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my pages. My
site however, has not displayed any information from the third party's
site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow frameset
instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only provided a link to
the third party's page and instructions on where to display the content.

Carolyn

 

[Alan J. Flavell]

On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct
your browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my
pages. My site however, has not displayed any information from the
third party's site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow
frameset instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only
provided a link to the third party's page and instructions on where
to display the content.

In the cases that I've heard of, the offender decided to settle out of
court, rather than try to persuade the judge(s) of the applicabiity of
these web technicalities.

It's not sufficient that we manage to convince each other - no matter
how well we agree amongst ourselves - for, as a certain commentator
put it[1], "Never will the lawyers relent, till all the client's
money's been spent".

cheers

[1]Oh - curiously, google doesn't seem to know where that comes from.
But I do. Well, perhaps the wording isn't quite spot on...? Anyone
else?

 

[Jose]

On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct your

browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my pages. My
site however, has not displayed any information from the third party's
site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow frameset
instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only provided a link to
the third party's page and instructions on where to display the content.

On a similar technicality, when I copy my friend's MP3, the computer is
merely following my instructions also. I am not doing the copying, I am
merely telling the operating system where the data is and giving it
standard file instructions; the operating system does the retrieving,
processing, and storing.

Frames are another instance in which the idea of copyright is being
stretched. To address the fundamental question of right or wrong one
must look beyong technicalities.

=Should= it be considered wrong (and thus made illegal) to appropriate
somebody else's content in such a way as to represent it as yours via
frames (or other means), even if no copying is involved? This is
similar to the question of whether =actually= copying intellectual
property should be considered wrong (and thus illegal) even though
(unlike chattel) the original remains with the owner.

Jose

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Carolyn Marenger quothed:

Jim Higson wrote in

jmev7 wrote:

I've been wondering how sites are able to contain other sites within
them, linking them as if they were their own [snip] is it legal?

Under which country's laws?

My take is that a frameset does not copy the resource, and only tells
the browser where the resource is avaliable, which probably isn't
copyrightable information.

You might want to double check that interpretation.

If a site displays copyright information from another site without first
gaining the copyright holder's permission, the means used to do so are not
of significance in determining whether a breach of copyright has occurred.

On a technicality... Using frames, and other means, I can instruct your
browser to load someone else's page into a section of one of my pages. My
site however, has not displayed any information from the third party's
site. Your browser, providing it can and does follow frameset
instructions, did the retrieving and displaying. I only provided a link to
the third party's page and instructions on where to display the content.

You provided the _means_ to display it which is under your auspices and,
therefore, contendable. This is different than a mere link; your
framework (yuk yuk) makes the "copy" available in another and additional
form, so in (US) superior court, Perry Mason would make mince meat out
of you.

 

[Adrienne Boswell]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Neredbojias

Yes, and if the address in the URL bar is http://www.example.com but the
content is from http://www.microsoft.com and there is nothing stating that
it _is_ http://www.microsoft.com, then I could be accused of trying to pass
Micorsoft's content as my own.

 

[Neredbojias]

With neither quill nor qualm, Adrienne Boswell quothed:

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Neredbojias


Yes, and if the address in the URL bar is http://www.example.com but the
content is from http://www.microsoft.com and there is nothing stating that
it _is_ http://www.microsoft.com, then I could be accused of trying to pass
Micorsoft's content as my own.

Exactly. US copyright-ownership law may (arguably) be too extensive,
but I have no problem with that.

 

[Toby Inkster]

I only provided a link to the third party's page and instructions on
where to display the content.

True, but there exists a legal concept of "passing off" -- i.e. you could
be considered to be passing off somebody's pages as your own work.

Of course, if you make it clear by your link text that the page is not
your own work, preferably giving credit to its author, then you're not
passing off.