i want discipline in my framework!!!

Discussion in 'Java' started by Elhanan, Jan 26, 2006.

  1. Elhanan

    Elhanan Guest

    hi..

    i'm an asp , vb6 programmer, i used asp.net in an application and now
    i'm moving to java, becouse i saw something in it that dotnet doesn't
    have, structure, with the web framework in hand, i don't have to think
    where to place all my code, how design from the ground up, the
    framework can lead me in but not force me, i like stucture, structure
    is good :)

    when ever i choose a tool, the first thing i think about is not what is
    best, but what is most commonly used, becouse that is likely to have
    the greasts support, tool, and material, so i was told struts is like
    that 'de-facto-standard', i saw the struts tutorial at
    http://courses.coreservlets.com/Course-Materials/struts.html and it was
    rather good, i thought i almost solved all my problems (aside from
    field level validators like asp.net has, shame, but still you do need
    sepration right?)

    but then i saw this:
    http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/official-struts-demise/view

    struts bashing ???
    or am i just moving a 'dead tool'?
    will shale be backword comptabile to struts?

    now i'm thinking to take a look at tapestry, but i'm unsure of how it's
    widely used, or even easy to use, i'm using eclipse and the only thing
    i saw for it was something called spindle (for struts i saw several,
    and exadel looks nice).


    what do you think?
    Elhanan, Jan 26, 2006
    #1
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  2. Elhanan

    Guest

    Hello,

    I think you are correct in that:

    - Struts is still the most commonly used Java web application framework
    out there because it was the first widely adapted MVC framework.

    - Struts Shale is not going to be backward compatible to Struts Action
    because it's based on JSF which is a component based rather than
    request/action based like Struts Action.

    However, according to the WebWork folks, their WebWork 2.2 is going
    to be folded into Struts Action 2.0 so maybe somebody changed their
    minds:

    http://www.opensymphony.com/webwork/

    I have been using Struts Action for more than 6 years in various
    projects,
    and it definitely has its limitations. I would like to move on to
    something else, but I want to wait for something that will be around
    for
    a while and that is considerably better. Just haven't had the push to
    start looking.

    Besides WebWork, You might also want to look into the MVC framework
    from Spring since they have been gaining popularity recently.

    Good luck,

    Matt
    www.suckingfish.com

    Elhanan wrote:
    > hi..
    >
    > i'm an asp , vb6 programmer, i used asp.net in an application and now
    > i'm moving to java, becouse i saw something in it that dotnet doesn't
    > have, structure, with the web framework in hand, i don't have to think
    > where to place all my code, how design from the ground up, the
    > framework can lead me in but not force me, i like stucture, structure
    > is good :)
    >
    > when ever i choose a tool, the first thing i think about is not what is
    > best, but what is most commonly used, becouse that is likely to have
    > the greasts support, tool, and material, so i was told struts is like
    > that 'de-facto-standard', i saw the struts tutorial at
    > http://courses.coreservlets.com/Course-Materials/struts.html and it was
    > rather good, i thought i almost solved all my problems (aside from
    > field level validators like asp.net has, shame, but still you do need
    > sepration right?)
    >
    > but then i saw this:
    > http://www.manageability.org/blog/stuff/official-struts-demise/view
    >
    > struts bashing ???
    > or am i just moving a 'dead tool'?
    > will shale be backword comptabile to struts?
    >
    > now i'm thinking to take a look at tapestry, but i'm unsure of how it's
    > widely used, or even easy to use, i'm using eclipse and the only thing
    > i saw for it was something called spindle (for struts i saw several,
    > and exadel looks nice).
    >
    >
    > what do you think?
    , Jan 26, 2006
    #2
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  3. Elhanan

    Elhanan Guest

    i saw the comments there, some are against, some are for it, in the
    link i copied there is a another link to a poll published showing
    tapestry leads.

    a while back i read a book on ejb becouse that was a standard, after
    finishing i understood ejb is not for me , couse it was so huge and
    moduled, is that struts like that?, i like standards and support, but i
    also like something i can use on my own and not be joined by a team.

    what is struts action 2.0? isn't that shale? i thought there woudn't be
    a struts 2.0
    Elhanan, Jan 26, 2006
    #3
  4. Elhanan

    Guest

    For some of the more common projects, EJB is really an overkill. I
    prefer
    Hibernate as the data access framework. As for Struts, there are many
    components, but still very light weight. The core struts.jar is only
    about 600 KB. It's easy to use once you get the handle on it,
    but it doesn't have as good of form support as ASP.NET.

    The link I posted mentioned that they will merge WebWork into Struts
    Action 2.0 (which is different from Struts Shale). I don't work for
    either team, so I don't really know, but if you go to this link:

    http://blogs.opensymphony.com/webwork/2006/01/webwork_22_released_and_ready.html

    And read some of the comments, they claim Struts Action 2.0 will come
    out in about 6 months or so (given it's open source, should add
    some buffer to that estimate). I know they said there wouldn't be a
    2.0,
    but that was over a year ago, maybe things changed.

    If you want to read more about the struts history and roadmap, try this
    link:

    http://opensource2.atlassian.com/confluence/oss/display/STRUTS/Struts 2006

    By the way, if you are new to the Java application world and trying to
    build
    a web app using open source tools, then you might want to start from:

    http://www.suckingfish.com/view.do?crumb_id=csid_1033

    Good luck,

    Matt



    > i saw the comments there, some are against, some are for it, in the
    > link i copied there is a another link to a poll published showing
    > tapestry leads.
    >
    > a while back i read a book on ejb becouse that was a standard, after
    > finishing i understood ejb is not for me , couse it was so huge and
    > moduled, is that struts like that?, i like standards and support, but i
    > also like something i can use on my own and not be joined by a team.
    >
    > what is struts action 2.0? isn't that shale? i thought there woudn't be
    > a struts 2.0
    , Jan 26, 2006
    #4
  5. Elhanan

    James Guest

    Elhanan,

    I think it is important for you to not confuse popularity with good or
    right.

    suckingfish has some excellent stuff and it is worth a look into.

    I would also like to suggest looking at the MOAT approach and
    framework. It not really ready for your WEB needs
    today, but it can be used in other areas and yes it will eventually
    support web and portal apps.

    Rgs, James.
    http://www.jamesladdcode.com/moat
    James, Jan 27, 2006
    #5
  6. Elhanan

    Chris Smith Guest

    James <> wrote:
    > I think it is important for you to not confuse popularity with good or
    > right.
    >
    > suckingfish has some excellent stuff and it is worth a look into.


    I can't find any mention of anything called "suckingfish" that has
    anything to do with web applications. Care to be more specific?

    > I would also like to suggest looking at the MOAT approach and
    > framework. It not really ready for your WEB needs
    > today, but it can be used in other areas and yes it will eventually
    > support web and portal apps.


    All very well, but what does it do?

    I had a brief look, and it appears to include a few interfaces. It also
    contained a REALLY basic implementation of some kind of class lookup
    scheme for the system class loader, based on an ad hoc naming convention
    that isn't documented anywhere that I see.

    The web site makes some claims that MOAT somehow is involved in a few
    good design techniques such as design-by-interface... Of course,
    design-by-interface can be done just fine without a third-party product.
    The site also says something about "fortifying" objects against "change
    impact", and I'm sure a marketing department would be proud, but I'm
    still lost.

    So: what does it do?

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
    Chris Smith, Jan 27, 2006
    #6
  7. Elhanan

    Guest

    I believe he was referring to my previous post which has a link to
    a list of open source tools for building web apps:

    http://www.suckingfish.com/view.do?crumb_id=csid_1033

    It was meant to be a starting point for people who are new to the
    field.

    Matt

    Chris Smith wrote:
    > James <> wrote:
    > > I think it is important for you to not confuse popularity with good or
    > > right.
    > >
    > > suckingfish has some excellent stuff and it is worth a look into.

    >
    > I can't find any mention of anything called "suckingfish" that has
    > anything to do with web applications. Care to be more specific?
    >
    , Jan 27, 2006
    #7
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