Identifying applications requiring Microsoft Java Runtime

A

Andrew Baker

Faced with a desktop loaded with third party applications, what would
be the options regarding identifying those applications that need the
Microsoft Java Runtime? (Other than removing it and testing all the
applications :))

Is there a library dependency that could be checked for in a .exe
dependency walker or somthing similar ...

Any intelligent suggestions welcomed,

ab
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Andrew said:
Faced with a desktop loaded with third party applications, what would
be the options regarding identifying those applications that need the
Microsoft Java Runtime? (Other than removing it and testing all the
applications :))

Check which ones insert viruses
in your system? ;-)

That is one of the few things the
the broken MS VM can do that
Sun's VM's will not.
 
A

Andy Fish

you could look for '*.jar' files. these are usually the way that java code
is delivered.
 
I

Ike

Isn't it the same as Sun's 1.1x ? Isn't it therefore comaptible with Sun's
Java 2 ?
-Ike
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Ike wrote:
(MicrobaStard JVM)
Isn't it the same as Sun's 1.1x ?

No. MS implemented some things 'differently'
and added some extra methods.
(If one were being cynical, one might suggest
it was to allow hackers to trash your system,
but it was just an effort to screw Sun *)

There may also have been some things _missing_
from the MS JVM that were in Sun's, but I am
not so sure of that.


[ * Waits for 'the prodigal son' to jump in
with his usual abuse.. ;-) ]
 
S

Sudsy

Andrew said:
Ike wrote:
(MicrobaStard JVM)
Isn't it the same as Sun's 1.1x ?


No. MS implemented some things 'differently'
and added some extra methods.
(If one were being cynical, one might suggest
it was to allow hackers to trash your system,
but it was just an effort to screw Sun *)

There may also have been some things _missing_
from the MS JVM that were in Sun's, but I am
not so sure of that.

[ * Waits for 'the prodigal son' to jump in
with his usual abuse.. ;-) ]

Sorry, but I'm from the other (dark) side. I still remember the
"Halloween Documents" and their suggestions to "commoditize"
protocols to "deny OSS projects entry into the market".*
[OSS = Open Source Software]
* That's a direct quote from the document written by Vinod
Valloppillil, BTW.
 
A

Andrew Baker

Blimey, how did I know that this would turn into a MS vs. Sun rant.

The point is that some people bought third party applications that
required the Microsoft Java runtime - try to stay focused now, avoid
anti-MS, pro-Sun rants ... :)

MS is withdrawing support for their Java engine, so desktop support
guys have a problem ...

Some apps won't work with the Sun runtime so they need to be
identified and either removed or re-worked to work with the Sun
engine.

The question is - stay focused now ... - how do you best identify an
application that needs the Microsoft Java engine.

ab
 
T

Thomas Weidenfeller

Andrew said:
The question is - stay focused now ... - how do you best identify an
application that needs the Microsoft Java engine.

You know, people don't like to be at someones beck and call in
newsgroups, especially not from a first-time poster. If you need
"focused" support, pay someone to do it for you.

As for your problem: Get the documentation of all these third party
software, and read it. Or pay someone to read it for you. The part where
the manufacturer specifies the system requirements ...

If that doesn't help, spent your valuable time (and not ours), or pay
someone, to investigate the differences between the two.


/Thomas
 
A

Andrew Thompson

Andrew said:
The question is - stay focused now ... - how do you best identify an
application that needs the Microsoft Java engine.

The answer is the one you rejected in
your first post.

Remove the decrepit, broken, obsolete,
insecure JVM and see what fails to run.

Give your users a link to this when
they complain,
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/?gssnb=1

And _you_ might check this link for further info.
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/java/developers.asp

'Take it up with the manufacturer"

There are other, potentially better
solutions - but your rejection of the
simplest makes them sound like hard
work - something to which you are
apparently not kindly disposed.
 
C

Chris Uppal

Thomas said:
You know, people don't like to be at someones beck and call in
newsgroups, especially not from a first-time poster. If you need
"focused" support, pay someone to do it for you.

I dunno. I think that Andrew was dead right -- I think he has a right to
expect that, as a community, we will attempt to answer legitimate questions
with with helpful replies, or with no replies at all.

It's inevitable that some questions will only get chuntering irrelevancies in
response (sometimes funny, often just off-topic), but when that *does* happen
to someone who asked a perfectly sensible question in a perfectly reasonable
way, then *I* don't think a little light sarcasm is over-reacting.

-- chris
 
A

Andrew Baker

Guys,

I am sorry if I offended anyone - it was only intended in jest - noone
died ;-)

Unfortunately the remove & test option isn't really a starter for a
site that has hundreds of applications, but for one that has less it
is certainly worth considering.

I think what I will do is get hold of an application that uses the MS
engine & get under the hood looking for some kind of dependency trail
that could be included in an automated detection process.

If I find anything I'll post a follow up.

ab
 
T

Thomas Weidenfeller

Chris said:
I dunno. I think that Andrew was dead right -- I think he has a right to
expect that, as a community, we will attempt to answer legitimate questions
with with helpful replies, or with no replies at all.

It's inevitable that some questions will only get chuntering irrelevancies in
response (sometimes funny, often just off-topic), but when that *does* happen
to someone who asked a perfectly sensible question in a perfectly reasonable
way, then *I* don't think a little light sarcasm is over-reacting.

I think as a first-time poster he failed in multiple ways. If he would
have read the group a little bit before posting, he would have find out
that people here don't want to hear about Microsoft's VM. And that it is
maybe not a good idea to ask here. Like it is not a good idea to ask
about push-bikes in a biker bar. Reading before posting is suggested in
any introduction to newsgroups.

He also failed to provide background information about the problem at
hand (reason, size of the problem, type of the applications, etc.). It
is his responsibility to provide all necessary information. It is not
our job to squeeze it out of him. He also didn't provide any information
about the things he already tried. Maybe he didn't try anything, so he
appeared as being a bit lazy.

In his first posting he invited sarcastic responses by stating "Any
intelligent suggestions welcomed,". As any introduction to newsgroups
explains, demanding an answer, and telling people what they have to do
is not a good idea. You are asking people for help for free, you should
better respect them, and don't appear as arrogant.

And finally, he is in the consulting business. He should well know the
difference between paid-for advice and free help from volunteers.


/Thomas
 
C

Chris Uppal

Thomas said:
I think as a first-time poster he failed in multiple ways. If he would
have read the group a little bit before posting, he would have find out
that
people here don't want to hear about Microsoft's VM. And that it is
maybe not a good idea to ask here. Like it is not a good idea to ask
about push-bikes in a biker bar.

Eh ? Since when has it been *legitimate* for behaviour like that to pollute
this ng ? I know it *happens*, but that's because there are a number of
f***wits who would rather sound off than either help or discuss issues. This
*isn't* a biker bar, and it's not supposed to be like one.

He also failed to provide background information about the problem at
hand (reason, size of the problem, type of the applications, etc.). It
is his responsibility to provide all necessary information. It is not
our job to squeeze it out of him.

Leaving aside** the question of how he is supposed to know how much information
is necessary to solve the problem when he doesn't know how to solve it himself,
I think this is over the top too. At least he provided enough info for *me* to
make a first cut at the problem and decide that I didn't know how to solve it.
(As an aside, I was surprised to learn that there are *any* applications using
MS's JVM) What information would *you* have needed over and above what was in
the original post in order to offer a useful suggestion ? Specifically ?

He also didn't provide any information
about the things he already tried. Maybe he didn't try anything, so he
appeared as being a bit lazy.

You seem to be scraping the bottom of the barrel here. At least I -- as I've
said -- can't think of any workable approach, so if *I* had this problem then
I'd have to ask for help without trying anything first. I don't consider
myself either lazy (in this respect ;-) or incompetent, so why should I ascribe
either of these things to him in this situation ?


[**] the general problem that anyone always faces when asking for help. Some
people seem to think that the best approach is to produce a brain dump of every
detail of the problem (most of which will prove to be irrelevant), plus 10K of
code, plus their granny's social security number. I've seen other posters
criticised for not doing this -- which I find staggering (though I don't stay
staggered -- that's what killfiles are for). Usenet is after all an
*interactive* medium, it is in no way difficult for a would-be helper to ask
for the *specific* extra info that is needed. I, for one, will only rarely
bother with the brain-dump type post -- why should I spend minutes reading long
posts, stuffed with irrelevant (probably) detail and badly written code, just
to tell whether the question is even one that I can answer, or is interesting
enough for me to want to ? A succinct and clear overview of the problem, with
as much detail will fit in that envelope, is what I think posters should aim
for.

Maybe other people think differently, but for me this is a *discussion* group,
not a free tech-support line. The reason that people often provide help is
that they find discussing these matters interesting. We aren't volunteer
support staff, we aren't here to provide a free service, we're here because we
(occasionally) enjoy the discussions. So the "please help" questions that *I*
consider appropriate for this ng are the ones that will provoke or require some
interesting discussion to solve. Problems that fall into the "post full
details upfront, ask humbly, and some nice person will probably provide an
answer out of their boundless generosity" category seem to me to belong in
c.l.j.help (which I don't read -- except for bloody cross-posts). IMO, the
questions that belong here are much more likely to have the underlying form
"hey gang here's some meat to chew on" than "please, please, help this
miserable newbie". Of course, I'd hope that the resulting discussion will
usually help the original poster too.

So, getting back OT, I didn't find the content or tone of the OP in any way out
of place.

-- chris
 
A

Andrew Baker

Faced with a desktop loaded with third party applications, what would
be the options regarding identifying those applications that need the
Microsoft Java Runtime? (Other than removing it and testing all the
applications :))

Is there a library dependency that could be checked for in a .exe
dependency walker or somthing similar ...

Any intelligent suggestions welcomed,

ab

Diagnostic Tool for the Microsoft VM 1.0
The Diagnostic Tool for the Microsoft VM can be used to scan one or
more computers to detect the presence of MSJVM and MSJVM-related
software.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/...f9-ce7e-4271-8836-a7d7293a992f&DisplayLang=en
 

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