Idiotic question of an Idiot - dint like dont reply.

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by novice, Mar 15, 2006.

  1. novice

    novice Guest

    I dint find a proper group to post this,
    so i'm asking this question. If you think
    this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
    but i expect good replies from experts.

    I wondor, how these guys who answer
    to complicated questions have mastered C.
    I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
    If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    Where should i find the proper materials.
     
    novice, Mar 15, 2006
    #1
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  2. novice wrote:
    > I dint find a proper group to post this,
    > so i'm asking this question. If you think
    > this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
    > but i expect good replies from experts.
    >
    > I wondor, how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.
    > I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    > Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
    > If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    > Where should i find the proper materials.


    A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second Edition"
    by Brian W. Kernighan and Dennis M. Ritchie. Read the book, and do all
    the exercises. Practice on real world problems. Follow c.l.c. Others
    are likely to add to this list.

    --
    BR, Vladimir
     
    Vladimir S. Oka, Mar 15, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Vladimir S. Oka said:

    >
    > novice wrote:
    >> I dint find a proper group to post this,
    >> so i'm asking this question. If you think
    >> this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
    >> but i expect good replies from experts.
    >>
    >> I wondor, how these guys who answer
    >> to complicated questions have mastered C.
    >> I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    >> Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
    >> If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    >> Where should i find the proper materials.

    >
    > A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second Edition"


    Another good place to start would be any place that teaches good manners. If
    he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not answer, but I expect good
    questions from novices.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
     
    Richard Heathfield, Mar 15, 2006
    #3
  4. novice

    pemo Guest

    novice wrote:
    > I dint find a proper group to post this,
    > so i'm asking this question. If you think
    > this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
    > but i expect good replies from experts.
    >
    > I wondor, how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.
    > I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    > Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
    > If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    > Where should i find the proper materials.


    I always think that a good way to start is to think of small small /tools/
    that you could write and use later, for example, perhaps write a program
    that can replace tab characters in a .c file source file with a user
    configurable number of space characters - and/or the reverse of course.


    --
    ==============
    Not a pedant
    ==============
     
    pemo, Mar 15, 2006
    #4
  5. Richard Heathfield wrote:
    > Vladimir S. Oka said:
    >
    > >
    > > novice wrote:
    > >> I dint find a proper group to post this,
    > >> so i'm asking this question. If you think
    > >> this question is irrelevent then dont answer,
    > >> but i expect good replies from experts.
    > >>
    > >> I wondor, how these guys who answer
    > >> to complicated questions have mastered C.
    > >> I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    > >> Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
    > >> If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    > >> Where should i find the proper materials.

    > >
    > > A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second Edition"

    >
    > Another good place to start would be any place that teaches good manners. If
    > he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not answer, but I expect good
    > questions from novices.


    Agreed.

    I'm always in two minds about pointing manners to such posters, as they
    tend to fight back.

    <OT on><PC off>
    I blame it on this new "respect" culture. Suddenly, one does not earn
    respect through one's actions, but is rather born with it, together
    with a healthy dose of /disrespect/ towards any other not of the same
    ilk.
    </PC></OT>
     
    Vladimir S. Oka, Mar 15, 2006
    #5
  6. "novice" <> wrote in news:1142421410.477165.213000
    @e56g2000cwe.googlegroups.com:

    > Subject: Idiotic question of an Idiot - dint like dont reply.


    A first step would be not to call yourself an idiot unless you genuinely
    believe that ... in which case, you have no business programming.

    > I wondor, how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.
    > I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    > Should i study theory, or start writing programs?
    > If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    > Where should i find the proper materials.


    Start with smallest possible program you can possibly write -- that is
    why we have "Hello World". That will help you get started.

    Read the appropriate FAQ lists. Lurk here, and attempt to work on
    questions others post. Compare your solutions with the ones posted by
    regulars. Learn from your mistakes.

    Don't expect to be able to write flawless programs overnight. Value the
    public critique of the code you post.

    That'll be a good start.

    Sinan

    --
    A. Sinan Unur <>
    (remove .invalid and reverse each component for email address)
     
    A. Sinan Unur, Mar 15, 2006
    #6
  7. "novice" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I dint[sic] find a proper group to post this,
    > so i'm[sic] asking this question. If you think
    > this question is irrelevent[sic] then dont[sic] answer,
    > but i[sic] expect good replies from experts.


    Not everyone here is an expert. People here are at many different skill
    levels. You don't have the right to expect anything from anyone, although
    most will try to accomodate your request.

    > I wondor[sic], how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.


    1) be passionate for the things you do
    2) learn how to excel at what you're passionate about
    3) don't waste time, i.e., don't do the things you don't care about, unless
    needed to fulfill 2)
    4) practice makes (near) perfect

    > I'm a beginner in C, and wondor[sic] how to master C.
    > Should i[sic] study theory, or start writing programs?
    > If i[sic] should start writing programs, What programs should i[sic] start

    with?
    > Where should i[sic] find the proper materials.


    (At least capitalize your "I" 's. It gives importance to you. You are
    somebody.)

    Start by programming something related what you need, want, or enjoy:
    1) utilities
    2) games
    3) checkbook
    4) calculator
    5) sports
    6) cars

    Pick an OS and a compiler. Read the manuals. Write something. Learn how
    to enable warnings and error messages when you compile. Correct the
    mistakes. Repeat. Practice does make near perfect. I can't solve the
    physics problems today, that I solved in HS due to lack of practice.

    Learn how you solve problems. Do you start with a simple outline and then
    prefer to fill in progressively or do you prefer to start with all the stuff
    you want and work back? Download other people's code and see if you can
    understand what they are doing.

    > I wondor[sic], how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.


    I started by:
    1) getting straight A's
    2) learning programming on my own and through school
    3) taking AP courses
    4) taking standardized tests
    5) doing all homework
    6) solving other in the book non-homework problems
    7) correcting teachers when they made mistakes or when they asked where they
    had made their mistake
    8) after taking a standardized test, finding an error in said standardized
    test (I scored so high they thought I had cheated), that had been given for
    15 years and reviewed by PHD's and numerous college students (transcription
    error on their part)
    9) knowing the nature of people (1/3 are agreeable, 1/3 are assholes, 1/3
    are alcoholics)
    10) working late to solve a two month problem from incompetent asshole
    manager who said it was needed in two weeks. So I did it in one day, only
    to find said manager asking for it after two days, as I expected.
    11) not working on two hour problem by same incompetent asshole manager who
    said it was needed in four weeks until the day it was needed.


    Rod Pemberton
     
    Rod Pemberton, Mar 15, 2006
    #7
  8. novice

    Guest

    to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a computer
    but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any author but it must
    not my dennis ritche its very hard to understand even though he is an
    expert
     
    , Mar 15, 2006
    #8
  9. wrote:
    > to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a computer
    > but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any author but it must
    > not my dennis ritche its very hard to understand even though he is an
    > expert


    To be a master in anything, it's important to be prepared to make an
    effort. For example:

    - make an effort to properly capitalise
    - make an effort to use punctuation
    - make an effort to post properly, quoting context

    Before posting here again, read and heed:

    - <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
    - <http://www.clc-wiki.net/wiki/Introduction_to_comp.lang.c>

    BTW, there's nothing wrong with K&R2, provided one really wants to make
    an effort learning C.

    --
    BR, Vladimir
     
    Vladimir S. Oka, Mar 15, 2006
    #9
  10. said:

    > to ba a c master its better to


    How long have you been a C master?

    I don't wish to discourage you in your quest to become one, but until you
    are one, it might be better not to explain how to become one, in case you
    turn out to be wrong.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
     
    Richard Heathfield, Mar 15, 2006
    #10
  11. novice

    CBFalconer Guest

    Richard Heathfield wrote:
    > Vladimir S. Oka said:
    >> novice wrote:
    >>
    >>> I dint find a proper group to post this, so i'm asking this
    >>> question. If you think this question is irrelevent then dont
    >>> answer, but i expect good replies from experts.
    >>>
    >>> I wondor, how these guys who answer to complicated questions
    >>> have mastered C. I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master
    >>> C. Should i study theory, or start writing programs? If i
    >>> should start writing programs, What programs should i start
    >>> with? Where should i find the proper materials.

    >>
    >> A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second
    >> Edition"

    >
    > Another good place to start would be any place that teaches
    > good manners. If he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not
    > answer, but I expect good questions from novices.


    I would, at least tentatively, put that down to language
    difficulties. Somehow I suspect that his English is better than my
    <whatever he was brought up on>.

    --
    "If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
    the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
    "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
    "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
    More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
    Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>
     
    CBFalconer, Mar 15, 2006
    #11
  12. novice

    CBFalconer Guest

    santosh wrote:
    > wrote:
    >
    >> to ba a c master its better to read theory and practice in a
    >> computer but the good book for a beginner is ansi c by any
    >> author but it must not my dennis ritche its very hard to
    >> understand even though he is an expert

    >
    > How can one claim to be a "master" at something, without
    > understanding it's most difficult and intricate parts?
    >
    > As an aside, a "master" of SMS speak is needed, just to decipher
    > your post. Please try to use proper spelling and punctuation, if
    > not grammar, in posts to USENET. Posts like the above are one of
    > the fastest ways to lose whatever credibility you might
    > otherwise have enjoyed.
    >
    > By the way, even though some of the exercises in K&R's book may
    > be a little difficult, they are really stimulating and
    > challenging to anyone who genuinely likes programming and the C
    > language.


    Not to mention that it is one of the clearest language expositions
    available for any language. Not the most verbose though. You are
    allowed to stop and thing between paragraphs. Its clarity probably
    has a great deal to do with the general ascendence of C as a
    programming language.

    --
    "If you want to post a followup via groups.google.com, don't use
    the broken "Reply" link at the bottom of the article. Click on
    "show options" at the top of the article, then click on the
    "Reply" at the bottom of the article headers." - Keith Thompson
    More details at: <http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/>
    Also see <http://www.safalra.com/special/googlegroupsreply/>
     
    CBFalconer, Mar 15, 2006
    #12
  13. In article <> "novice" <> writes:
    > I wondor, how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.
    > I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    > Should i study theory, or start writing programs?


    Depends. When you have thorough previous experience with other computer
    languages you might master it by just trying. But I do not know whether
    that is really efficient (although I mastered the languages I use by just
    this method, except the very first one, Algol 60).

    When you do not have thorough previous experience, it is better to go
    both ways at the same time. Study the theory (i.e. text books about the
    language) and at the same time try to write programs.
    --
    dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
    home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
     
    Dik T. Winter, Mar 16, 2006
    #13
  14. novice

    John Bode Guest

    novice wrote:
    > I wondor, how these guys who answer
    > to complicated questions have mastered C.


    Many years of bitter, painful experience.

    > I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master C.
    > Should i study theory, or start writing programs?


    Programming is a skill, and all skills require practice. In order to
    learn how to write code, you must write code. Of course, you must also
    have at least one, preferably two good references with you while you
    are learning. Kernighan and Ritchie's "The C Programming Language,"
    2nd ed., is a good start. I also like Harbison & Steele's "C: A
    Reference Manual". There are a few other good ones, but beware: the
    vast majority of books and websites on the C language are worthless.

    > If i should start writing programs, What programs should i start with?
    > Where should i find the proper materials.


    K&R2 has exercises after each chapter. Once you've done a few of the
    exercises, you should start getting a feel for what you can do.
     
    John Bode, Mar 16, 2006
    #14
  15. CBFalconer said:

    > Richard Heathfield wrote:
    >> Vladimir S. Oka said:
    >>> novice wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I dint find a proper group to post this, so i'm asking this
    >>>> question. If you think this question is irrelevent then dont
    >>>> answer, but i expect good replies from experts.
    >>>>
    >>>> I wondor, how these guys who answer to complicated questions
    >>>> have mastered C. I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master
    >>>> C. Should i study theory, or start writing programs? If i
    >>>> should start writing programs, What programs should i start
    >>>> with? Where should i find the proper materials.
    >>>
    >>> A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second
    >>> Edition"

    >>
    >> Another good place to start would be any place that teaches
    >> good manners. If he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not
    >> answer, but I expect good questions from novices.

    >
    > I would, at least tentatively, put that down to language
    > difficulties.


    I wouldn't. He's making the wrong kind of mistakes for it to be second
    language syndrome. People who speak English as a foreign language get word
    order mildly wrong sometimes, or omit articles ('a', 'the', etc), or
    perhaps choose what we would consider to be a strange noun. But they don't
    make mistakes like "dint". Nor do they turn "wonder" into "wondor". (They
    are more likely to turn "vendor" into "vender".)

    No, this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own language
    properly.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
     
    Richard Heathfield, Mar 16, 2006
    #15
  16. On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
    <dvatur$nkr$-infra.bt.com>):

    > CBFalconer said:
    >
    >> Richard Heathfield wrote:
    >>> Vladimir S. Oka said:
    >>>> novice wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I dint find a proper group to post this, so i'm asking this
    >>>>> question. If you think this question is irrelevent then dont
    >>>>> answer, but i expect good replies from experts.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> I wondor, how these guys who answer to complicated questions
    >>>>> have mastered C. I'm a beginner in C, and wondor how to master
    >>>>> C. Should i study theory, or start writing programs? If i
    >>>>> should start writing programs, What programs should i start
    >>>>> with? Where should i find the proper materials.
    >>>>
    >>>> A good place to start is "The C Programming Language - Second
    >>>> Edition"
    >>>
    >>> Another good place to start would be any place that teaches
    >>> good manners. If he thinks my answer is irrelevant he need not
    >>> answer, but I expect good questions from novices.

    >>
    >> I would, at least tentatively, put that down to language
    >> difficulties.

    >
    > I wouldn't. He's making the wrong kind of mistakes for it to be second
    > language syndrome. People who speak English as a foreign language get
    > word order mildly wrong sometimes, or omit articles ('a', 'the', etc),
    > or perhaps choose what we would consider to be a strange noun. But
    > they don't make mistakes like "dint". Nor do they turn "wonder" into
    > "wondor". (They are more likely to turn "vendor" into "vender".)
    >
    > No, this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own language
    > properly.


    English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
    translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
    provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
    I tend to side with Richard on this one.

    It's the general demeanour that suggests lack of effort at best. Bad
    English may feel clumsy, but rarely disrespectful or offensive. I'll
    grant you that OP is not the worst I've seen here recently.

    --
    BR, Vladimir

    A mind is a wonderful thing to waste.
     
    Vladimir S. Oka, Mar 16, 2006
    #16
  17. In article <dvb3gi$t05$-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <> writes:
    > On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
    > <dvatur$nkr$-infra.bt.com>):

    ....
    > > I wouldn't. He's making the wrong kind of mistakes for it to be second
    > > language syndrome. People who speak English as a foreign language get
    > > word order mildly wrong sometimes, or omit articles ('a', 'the', etc),
    > > or perhaps choose what we would consider to be a strange noun. But
    > > they don't make mistakes like "dint". Nor do they turn "wonder" into
    > > "wondor". (They are more likely to turn "vendor" into "vender".)
    > >
    > > No, this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own language
    > > properly.

    >
    > English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
    > translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
    > provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
    > I tend to side with Richard on this one.


    I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
    a system based in New Delhi...
    --
    dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
    home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/
     
    Dik T. Winter, Mar 16, 2006
    #17
  18. novice

    Ben C Guest

    On 2006-03-16, Dik T. Winter <> wrote:
    > In article <dvb3gi$t05$-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <> writes:
    > > On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
    > > <dvatur$nkr$-infra.bt.com>):

    > ...
    > > > [...] this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own
    > > > language properly.

    > >
    > > English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
    > > translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
    > > provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
    > > I tend to side with Richard on this one.

    >
    > I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
    > a system based in New Delhi...


    Anyway, whatever the reasons, it's not fair to be mean to people just
    because they can't spell.

    I appreciate there are good reasons for keeping up the standard of the
    postings; but a rank beginner asking "how do I get started?", as the OP
    was, seems to me an honest question that deserves a decent response,
    like the ones many people have given.

    It's at the very beginning of learning something that you most need to
    ask for help.
     
    Ben C, Mar 16, 2006
    #18
  19. Ben C wrote:
    > On 2006-03-16, Dik T. Winter <> wrote:
    > > In article <dvb3gi$t05$-infra.bt.com> "Vladimir S. Oka" <> writes:
    > > > On Thursday 16 March 2006 05:43, Richard Heathfield opined (in
    > > > <dvatur$nkr$-infra.bt.com>):

    > > ...
    > > > > [...] this is just a guy who can't be bothered to write his own
    > > > > language properly.
    > > >
    > > > English being /my/ second language (caveat: my second profession is
    > > > translating to and from it ;-) ), and being exposed to all levels
    > > > provenances of non-native English in the office (apres office as well),
    > > > I tend to side with Richard on this one.

    > >
    > > I disagree. As the article was posted from a DSL line connected to
    > > a system based in New Delhi...

    >
    > Anyway, whatever the reasons, it's not fair to be mean to people just
    > because they can't spell.
    >
    > I appreciate there are good reasons for keeping up the standard of the
    > postings; but a rank beginner asking "how do I get started?", as the OP
    > was, seems to me an honest question that deserves a decent response,
    > like the ones many people have given.
    >
    > It's at the very beginning of learning something that you most need to
    > ask for help.


    I don't think spelling and grammar are at issue here. Everyday I work,
    and live, with people who get these wrong. I still don't normally get
    this feeling that the "tone of voice" (admittedly hard to put across
    online) is somehow wrong. Maybe it's a spoken vs written difference,
    but then not all of the posts here trigger it (it's actually a
    vanishing minority).

    --
    BR, Vladimir
     
    Vladimir S. Oka, Mar 16, 2006
    #19
  20. Vladimir S. Oka said:

    > I don't think spelling and grammar are at issue here.


    They became so only because someone pointed them out, and thus the analysis
    started. But we see a gazillion articles a day with bad spelling and
    grammar, and in general we don't worry about it. (And rightly so.)

    What was at issue was the attitude, which might be paraphrased along these
    lines: "hey, you, give me what I need, and if you can't, drop dead." Well,
    not quite as bad as that, perhaps, but it certainly had a very aggressive
    flavour.

    On the spelling/grammar thing: we shouldn't forget that we adopt spelling
    and grammar rules for a *reason* - i.e. to facilitate smooth and seamless
    communication. It is true that it takes W seconds longer to write an
    article if you choose to take time and trouble to get the grammar and
    spelling right - but these W seconds are well-spent, as putting your
    article into a reasonably canonical form will save every single one of your
    N readers an average of R seconds each in "decoding" the article.

    If W < N * R, as it generally is, then the result is an overall time saving
    for humanity.

    Also remember that, if you need help, it's a good idea not to jar off the
    people from whom you are asking that help! Nobody is going to care about
    the odd tyop, because most of us can easily glark what is meant from the
    context, but when someone systematically sets out to be as opaque as
    possible, 50m3 d00D5 g37 4 1i771e 4nn0y3d, and with good reason.

    --
    Richard Heathfield
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
    http://www.cpax.org.uk
    email: rjh at above domain (but drop the www, obviously)
     
    Richard Heathfield, Mar 16, 2006
    #20
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