IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.

[Michael Torrie]

These people, including myself, aren't trolls nor minions. They just
don't agree with you.

I strongly disagree with rr and find him to be an egotistical troll who
likes to hear the sound of his own, er, typing. Hence I'm disappointed
that I'm not on his list.

His posts really cause me to be conflicted. On the one hand they are
fascinating in the train-wreck sense, on the other hand my replying to
this perpetuates his ranting. Sigh. Consider yourself fed, rr.

 

[Robert]

Perhaps, after the repository moves from svn to hg, some 'we' will.
Maybe by then, you will have had your fun and be ready to work. Maybe
Kevin would help a bit.

If he does not, I think I might. Is there a timeline for the move?

Such a project would be carried out on the tracker and idle-sig mailing
list. Normal decorum would be required -- no ranting or insulting. The
first thing to do, in my opinion, is to review existing patches on the
tracker.


There is patch on the tracker, by G. Polo, as I remember, to replace tk
widgets with the newer themed ttk widgets. It needs to be reviewed and
tested. To make a big change (or proceed with any refactoring) better
automated testing would be very useful.

+1 for the UI update
+1 for more tests

 

[Corey Richardson]

If he does not, I think I might. Is there a timeline for the move?

I would help with such a project as well, given the opportunity.

 

[Raymond Hettinger]

IDLE: cornucopia ...
These are just the top of the list. The peak of a huge iceberg that
threatens to sink the community in the arms of chaos never to return.

That being said, I've taught a lot of people Python using IDLE.
It's a surprisingly productive environment and has a near-zero
learning curve.

I am beginning to believe that this community is either made of
amateurs due to this lackluster code in the stdlib. However it could
be that the folks are really professional and refuse to work on such a
horrible code base (which i understand). I am going with the latter.

Patches are welcome

 

[Red John]

Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
last he posted was a year ago! Alright, let me add you to the proper
category...

py> troll_group.append("Red John")

I realize that not agreeing with you is enough to be labeled a troll -
which is fine with me, a lot of my favorite posters were in that
group - but I fail to see how it's relevant that I prefer reading
others' ideas.

 

[rantingrick]

I realize that not agreeing with you is enough to be labeled a troll -
which is fine with me, a lot of my favorite posters were in that
group - but I fail to see how it's relevant that I prefer reading
others' ideas.

Here let me show you why you find yourself in the company of trolls...

Red John said:

Go away. You are easily one of the worst (and definitely most
annoying) person I've encountered in person or online, which is
saying something because I used to frequent 4chan.

That is all you have brought to this conversion so far. You have not
offered solutions for IDLE, heck you don't even inject an opinion of
IDLE. You just spew bile. Have fun with your new playmates.

py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))

Your moving up Corey. Keep up the good work!

 

[Corey Richardson]

[snip]
py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))

Your moving up Corey. Keep up the good work!

I don't recall ever doing anything but injecting my honest opinion. If
my opinion may be flawed (or appears to be flawed, I usually don't
elaborate on my ideas enough), so be it.

Will you be forking IDLE and setting up some sort of tracker for
improvements?

 

[Noah Hall]

py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))

Out of interest, what interpretor uses "py>"?
I've never seen any. Just sayin'.

 

[Terry Reedy]

Unclear. Many want immediately,

I would help with such a project as well, given the opportunity.

You both might sign up to idle-sig list. Or 'subscribe' to
gmane.comp.python.idle newsgroup mirror. Current traffic is 0.

And thank you both for chiming in. It is encouraging.

 

[Emile van Sebille]

py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))

Out of interest, what interpretor uses "py>"?
I've never seen any. Just sayin'.[/QUOTE]

ActivePython 2.6.1.1 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on
Python 2.6.1 (r261:67515, Dec 5 2008, 13:58:38) [MSC v.1500 32 bit
(Intel)] on
win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.py>

 

[Noah Hall]

ActivePython 2.6.1.1 (ActiveState Software Inc.) based on
Python 2.6.1 (r261:67515, Dec  5 2008, 13:58:38) [MSC v.1500 32 bit (Intel)]
on
win32
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.py>

I know how to do it already, thanks, but I've never seen it native.

 

[rantingrick]

I don't recall ever doing anything but injecting my honest opinion. If
my opinion may be flawed (or appears to be flawed, I usually don't
elaborate on my ideas enough), so be it.

Yes you are correct. When i added you to the troll list that was by
accident. You are obviously not a troll and probably not a flamer
either. Anyone willing to offer help is a moderate so there you go...

py> moderate_group.append(flamer_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))

Will you be forking IDLE and setting up some sort of tracker for
improvements?

No because we already have a bug tracker set up for IDLE. Why create
another one? We just need the "powers that be" to start accepting
major changes to the IDLE library at hand. There is not even enough
interest to get minor changes committed. A fork would be the best idea
however i am not going to start it alone. If someone else wants to
start a fork be my guest, i will be happy to help out once the fork is
established.

However i am always very reluctant to start these things because the
powers that be have not even expressed even the *smallest* interest in
change. Sure Raymond, and Terry are interested but how about the
others? We have yet to hear from the other BIG players. All we have
gotten so far is trolling, threating, and negativity from a few very
loud naysayers.

Now, after all this uphill battle i have fought only two brave souls
(Corey and Richard) have showed an interest in actually doing
something. And believe me i thank them! These are great people! But
were is the blessing from on high? Where is Steve Holden on this? Is
he too busy with $295.00 per session O-Reilly classes to stop by and
give his blessing. Were is py-dev on this? I know these folks have
*real* work to do however a quick "we're with you guys!", or a simple
"break a leg!" would be very helpful.

And last but not least, were oh were has our BDFL gone? For years he
has hidden his face from us at c.l.py. We have walked in the shadows
for far too long Guido. Were is YOUR opinion on these things. When
will you weigh in on these very important issues? When!

Are we not worthy of a simple:

"Yes, improving IDLE's code base sounds good to me."

or a simple:

"Sorry, i don't think we should worry about that because X,Y,Z."

Come on Guido we need your input already! If some big players would
show even the smallest support for improving IDLE (or any module) then
that positivity would propagate down to the rest of us. The naysayers
would stop trolling and the silent majority would start getting
involved.

 

[Robert]

Unclear. Many want immediately,


You both might sign up to idle-sig list. Or 'subscribe' to
gmane.comp.python.idle newsgroup mirror. Current traffic is 0.

And thank you both for chiming in. It is encouraging.

Well, I am about to sign up for the Steve Holden O'Reilly classes to
learn Python and I know doing something in Tkinter is part of that. I
also have the old Grayson book (just wish Pmw wasn't in there so much).
So this would be a good follow on to the class to keep me learning
Python at a steady pace.

 

[Grant Edwards]

IDLE: A cornicopia of mediocrity and obfuscation.
-- by Rick Johnson

RR's postings are generally tossed out by my score file, but after
seeing so many replies, my morbid curiousity finally got the best of
me, and I read (well, mostly) RR's posting on what's wrong with IDLE.

-- rr: disappointed and annoyed!

Shocker.

We'll take it as read that I made some joke at this point involving
one of the definitions of "idle" as meaning running your motor and not
going anywhere...

 

[alex23]

Well your statment completely ignores the silent majority.

There's a term for people who believe they act with the tacit approval
of the majority: megalomania.

It's also known as narcissistic personality disorder.

No they are trolls and they have demonstrated trollish behavior on
many occasions. Some have even threatened to kill me. Can you believe
that?

No. Link or it did not happen.

 

[alex23]

Hmm, that coming from someone who has two posts in this group. And the
last he posted was a year ago!

Wait, I thought you had the approval of the silent majority?

So once anyone actually posts, they lost the right to be counted,
because only when they shut up can you consider them allies?

 

[alex23]

That is all you have brought to this conversion so far. You have not
offered solutions for IDLE, heck you don't even inject an opinion of
IDLE. You just spew bile. Have fun with your new playmates.

py> flamer_group.append(troll_group.pop("Corey Richardson"))

Ah, the hypocrisy. It feels like only a few days ago that I read:

Why is it necessarily for you guys to advertise when you plonk. Just
plonk and shut up about it. Nobody cares what you do with your own
incoming email. Really, are you that self centered as to think we
actually care?

Citation: http://goo.gl/LlBFj

 

[Mel]

Citation: http://goo.gl/LlBFj

Actually, FWIW, not everybody advertises plonks.

Mel.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

No. Link or it did not happen.

Ha ha ha ha, did RR actually say that???

How cute, he thinks "kill file" means murder.


Anyway, fun's over... can we all just ignore his childish rants and
trolling? You (generic you, not Alex specifically) are only rewarding him
for bad behaviour with the attention he craves. If you won't do it for
me, do it for your future job prospects. Any future employer who googles
you will see you arguing for *days* with a troll. That isn't saying much
for your ability to distinguish productive from unproductive tasks :/


Hey Rick, back in June 2010 you promised to fork Python and split the
community into the silent majority who support you and the "ivory towers"
who disagree with you. How's that working out for you?

 

[Red John]

Wait, I thought you had the approval of the silent majority?

So once anyone actually posts, they lost the right to be counted,
because only when they shut up can you consider them allies?

Lulz, +1 internetz for you