IE vs. Netscape

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Orlando de Frias, Mar 5, 2004.

  1. Hello everyone,

    I'm relatively new to web design and I'm working on a fairly public project
    to get my feet wet. I've started to notice that something I'll create in
    Frontpage viewed with IE6 looks different (how I want it to look, actually)
    from Netscape 7 and Mozilla 1.5 (well... yeah.) They're not major
    differences, they're mainly small displacements with a table. In IE6, it'll
    be lined up perfectly how I want it, with each image coming together
    flawlessly, but in the other browsers it's shifted to the left 2-3 pixels.
    Odd thing is, it's not ALL tables, just the ones with cellpadding or
    cellspacing anything other than 0. Editing the page in the Netscape Composer
    lets me fix the problem, but then it looks bad in IE.

    I also noticed a problem where the cellspacing in a cell wasn't working
    correctly in Netscape/Mozilla while it worked in IE.

    Does anyone have any tips they can offer, perhaps something I'm missing? If
    you need me to post the source code, I can do that, but for now I'll assume
    there's some kind of well-known cross-browser fact I'm overlooking being an
    amateur :).

    Regards,
    Orlando
    Orlando de Frias, Mar 5, 2004
    #1
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  2. Orlando  de Frias

    Mark Parnell Guest

    On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:41:58 GMT, "Orlando de Frias"
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Does anyone have any tips they can offer, perhaps something I'm missing?


    1) Ditch Frontpage.
    2) No, really. Run as far away from Frontpage as you can.
    3) Read through the specs. Then read them again.
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/
    http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/

    > If you need me to post the source code, I can do that, but for now I'll assume
    > there's some kind of well-known cross-browser fact I'm overlooking being an
    > amateur :).


    4) Despite the cargo-cult that believes otherwise, slicing up images
    causes the load time for the page to *increase*, not decrease. Plus you
    run into problems such as you described.
    5) Tables aren't meant to be used for layout. They are for tabular data.
    http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Tableless_layouts
    6) Don't use IE for testing. It is broken. Use Mozilla/Opera, then test
    in IE once they look right.
    7) Don't forget to validate.
    http://validator.w3.org/ for (X)HTML
    http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/ for CSS.
    8) Throughout all the above, lurk in alt.html. :)
    9) If you want, once the site is done (or getting there), post the URL
    over in alt.html.critique.
    10) Have fun!

    HTH

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Mar 5, 2004
    #2
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  3. Orlando  de Frias

    Erik Harris Guest

    On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 01:41:58 GMT, "Orlando de Frias"
    <> wrote:

    >I'm relatively new to web design and I'm working on a fairly public project
    >to get my feet wet. I've started to notice that something I'll create in
    >Frontpage viewed with IE6 looks different (how I want it to look, actually)


    Simply put, Frontpage is horrendous. :-( For a very simple explanation, go
    to http://validator.w3.org/ and ask it to look for mistakes in your webpage.
    First, you'll notice that Frontpage failed to specify a DOCTYPE, which is
    what tells a browser what version of HTML it's supposed to use when
    interpreting the page. If you fix that manually, you'll likely find numerous
    other mistakes in the HTML code, depending on how elaborate your page is.

    The "bright side" is that most of the drones out there are using IE because
    it came on their computer, and they haven't bothered to see if there's
    anything better out there, and FrontPage's problem code is rendered
    "correctly" by IE (more accurately, it renders the same way as FP's WYSIWYG
    editor, since it's the same rendering engine, and interprets bad code the
    same way), so it'll look fine for people using that particular browser.
    That's only a bright side if you want to cater only to IE users (and plenty
    of web masters are content with that).

    >cellspacing anything other than 0. Editing the page in the Netscape Composer
    >lets me fix the problem, but then it looks bad in IE.


    It's possible that Composer's HTML code is just as problematic as
    FrontPage's, though I'd be surprised if it's _that_ bad. :)

    >Does anyone have any tips they can offer, perhaps something I'm missing? If
    >you need me to post the source code, I can do that, but for now I'll assume
    >there's some kind of well-known cross-browser fact I'm overlooking being an
    >amateur :).


    I've found that I get a lot more specific help from people here if I post my
    work-in-progress web pages someplace (on a web server) and include a URL with
    the message. That way, people can look at the HTML code and explain the
    problems as they see them. Personally, I'd start with the validator first,
    though. Fix the problems it points out as well as you can, and then post a
    web page for people here to look at. There may well be HTML validator errors
    you can't figure out (I found plenty of those when I was trying to figure out
    HTML 4.01 Strict), and people here can give you much more detailed
    explanations of what is wrong

    >
    >Regards,
    >Orlando
    >



    --
    Erik Harris n$wsr$ader@$harrishom$.com
    AIM: KngFuJoe http://www.eharrishome.com
    Chinese-Indonesian MA Club http://cimac.eharrishome.com

    The above email address is obfuscated to try to prevent SPAM.
    Replace each dollar sign with an "e" for the correct address.
    Erik Harris, Mar 5, 2004
    #3
  4. Orlando  de Frias

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <5o28r4osuls6.1whcoo457jyow$>,
    says...
    > > Does anyone have any tips they can offer, perhaps something I'm missing?

    > 1) Ditch Frontpage.
    > 2) No, really. Run as far away from Frontpage as you can.


    Well the first thing you have to do is ignore people with closed minds
    that offer advice like "ditch frontpage... No Really Run....

    Evaluate the stupidity of that line. It puts the rest of the advice in
    proper prospective...

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Mar 5, 2004
    #4
  5. Orlando  de Frias

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>, n$wsr$ader@
    $harrishom$.com says...
    > Simply put, Frontpage is horrendous.


    Front page is no different than any other editor. The fault is with the
    developer, not the tool.

    > The "bright side" is that most of the drones out there are using IE because
    > it came on their computer...


    Read MOST s 90% of your visitors.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Mar 5, 2004
    #5
  6. Wow, just checked that CSS and I must say I'm impressed. I don't even want
    to continue the way I'm doing things now... I want to just stop and learn
    the CSS way :).

    I have another question though. What makes Frontpage so bad? I just noticed
    it while validating (sheesh!) Is there an editor you recommend? Is
    Dreamweaver any better? I've trolled around many newsgroups trying to find
    information to help me out with any question I might have had, and never saw
    anyone mention Frontpage being the big bad program it obviously is, so I
    figured I was safe.

    Anywho, I'm going to take the advice you and Erik Harris gave me. Thanks a
    bunch!

    Regards,
    Orlando de Frias
    Orlando de Frias, Mar 5, 2004
    #6
  7. Orlando  de Frias

    Erik Harris Guest

    On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 06:01:36 -0500, Whitecrest <> wrote:

    >In article <>, n$wsr$ader@
    >$harrishom$.com says...
    >> Simply put, Frontpage is horrendous.

    >
    >Front page is no different than any other editor. The fault is with the
    >developer, not the tool.


    But when the tool is an HTML editor, and is incapable of generating actual
    HTML code, the best developer in the world can't change the fact that
    Frontpage is horrendous. Debugging a page that Frontpage made would take
    longer than making it in the first place is.

    >> The "bright side" is that most of the drones out there are using IE because
    >> it came on their computer...


    >Read MOST s 90% of your visitors.


    As I said, yes, most people use IE (however, 90% is an exaggeration), and
    most of the people that use IE use it simply because they don't know any
    better. But popularity doesn't make it better. For some reason, an old joke
    comes to mind: "eat sh!t! One billion flies can't be wrong!"

    --
    Erik Harris n$wsr$ader@$harrishom$.com
    AIM: KngFuJoe http://www.eharrishome.com
    Chinese-Indonesian MA Club http://cimac.eharrishome.com

    The above email address is obfuscated to try to prevent SPAM.
    Replace each dollar sign with an "e" for the correct address.
    Erik Harris, Mar 5, 2004
    #7
  8. Orlando  de Frias

    Erik Harris Guest

    On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 13:56:18 GMT, "Orlando de Frias"
    <> wrote:

    >I have another question though. What makes Frontpage so bad? I just noticed
    >it while validating (sheesh!) Is there an editor you recommend? Is
    >Dreamweaver any better? I've trolled around many newsgroups trying to find


    I don't know why FP is so bad. You'd have to ask MS why their editor can't
    follow even the most basic rules that W3C set aside for HTML. :)

    As for better editors, I use a text editor (UltraEdit, but there are plenty
    of other editors that have HTML syntax hilighting as well), so I can't really
    offer any help of my own there. I have saved some old newsgroup postings on
    this subject, though. The most comprehensive of them is this one:

    =-=-=-=-=-
    From: brucie <>
    Newsgroups: alt.html
    Subject: Re: any free html editors any good???
    Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 09:41:43 +1000

    In post <rKPEa.912940$Zo.209227@sccrnsc03>
    bbxrider said...
    [any free html editors any good]

    > hoping to get some input before i go thru another learning curve


    free:
    jedit: http://www.jedit.org/
    araneae: http://www.araneae.com/
    crimson: http://crimsoneditor.com/
    acehtml: http://freeware.acehtml.com/
    notetab light: http://www.notetab.com/
    html-kit: http://www.chami.com/html-kit/
    quanta (linux): http://quanta.sourceforge.net/
    notespad: http://www.newbie.net/NotesPad/index.html
    grey matter pro: http://www.pagetutor.com/misc/grey.html
    stones webwrite: http://www.webwriter.dk/english/index.htm
    matizha sublime: http://www.matizha.com/en/products/sublime/

    not free:
    textpad: http://www.textpad.com/
    notetab: http://www.notetab.com/
    editplus: http://www.editplus.com/
    ultraedit: http://www.idmcomp.com/
    editpad: http://www.editpadpro.com/
    dreamweaver: http://www.macromedia.com/
    hypertext studio: http://www.olsonsoft.com/
    namo: http://www.namo.com/products/webeditor/
    acehtml pro: http://www.visicommedia.com/acehtml/
    ibm websphere: http://www-3.ibm.com/software/webservers/hpbuilder/




    --
    brucie a. blackford. 09/June/2003 09:36:24 am kilo.
    =-=-=-=-=-

    --
    Erik Harris n$wsr$ader@$harrishom$.com
    AIM: KngFuJoe http://www.eharrishome.com
    Chinese-Indonesian MA Club http://cimac.eharrishome.com

    The above email address is obfuscated to try to prevent SPAM.
    Replace each dollar sign with an "e" for the correct address.
    Erik Harris, Mar 5, 2004
    #8
  9. Jeffrey Silverman, Mar 5, 2004
    #9
  10. On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 05:59:25 -0500, Whitecrest wrote:

    > In article <5o28r4osuls6.1whcoo457jyow$>,
    > says...
    >> > Does anyone have any tips they can offer, perhaps something I'm missing?

    >> 1) Ditch Frontpage.
    >> 2) No, really. Run as far away from Frontpage as you can.

    >
    > Well the first thing you have to do is ignore people with closed minds
    > that offer advice like "ditch frontpage... No Really Run....
    >
    > Evaluate the stupidity of that line. It puts the rest of the advice in
    > proper prospective...


    Please, then, give me one good reason why this person should use
    FrontPage. Really, Whitcrest. You give out this "ignore people with
    closed minds" advice quite a bit, it seems, (well, at least, more than
    once). But the simple reality is that FrontPage is Not Good (TM) and
    nothing open or closed about my mind (or others) is going to change that
    fact.

    FrontPage has ONE thing going for it: market share/popularity. MOST
    people use IE. MOST people use Windows. MOST novice HTML authors seem to
    learn on FrontPage. etc.

    With that said, though, I have yet to see a "good" HTML page generated by
    FrontPage. I *have* seen some pretty darn good Dreamweaver pages, so I
    know it is possible for a WYSIWYG tool to generate decent HTML. But this
    group is alt.html and that is why the overwhelming response to people
    using FrontPage is to ditch it! FrontPage SUCKS as an HTML tool, plain and
    simple!!!

    later...

    --
    Jeffrey D. Silverman | jeffrey AT jhu DOT edu
    Website | http://www.wse.jhu.edu/newtnotes/
    Jeffrey Silverman, Mar 5, 2004
    #10
  11. I made my personal experiences with FP (long time a go though :), and
    I've found it terrible, altering my personal written code all the time,
    adding proprietary FP elements and leaving the control over the source
    at FP and not to me, the author.
    I use mainly DW MX2004 (more because of its site management
    capabilities, and the preview pane), and UltraEdit32 or HomeSite+
    together with TopStyle...
    I wouldn't call it a bad advise to ditch FP, it might help the OP
    avoiding a lot of frustrating experiences.

    bernhard
    ---
    www.daszeichen.ch
    remove nixspam to reply
    Bernhard Sturm, Mar 5, 2004
    #11
  12. Jeffrey Silverman wrote:

    > FrontPage has ONE thing going for it: market share/popularity.


    Two things, it also has the Microsoft brand name. (Which would put a lot of
    people off, but they aren't really in Frontpage's target market).


    --
    David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    David Dorward, Mar 5, 2004
    #12
  13. Orlando  de Frias

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>, n$wsr$ader@
    $harrishom$.com says...
    > >Front page is no different than any other editor. The fault is with the
    > >developer, not the tool.

    > But when the tool is an HTML editor, and is incapable of generating actual
    > HTML code, the best developer in the world can't change the fact that
    > Frontpage is horrendous. Debugging a page that Frontpage made would take
    > longer than making it in the first place is.


    Front page is capable of producing perfectly good code. If it doesn't,
    then it is the developers fault. And they would end up doing the same
    thing with any editor.

    > >> The "bright side" is that most of the drones out there are using IE because
    > >> it came on their computer...

    > >Read MOST s 90% of your visitors.

    > As I said, yes, most people use IE (however, 90% is an exaggeration)


    > But popularity doesn't make it better. For some reason, an old joke
    > comes to mind: "eat sh!t! One billion flies can't be wrong!"


    No one said better. anyway, better or not is irrelevant if 90% (give or
    take) use it.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Mar 5, 2004
    #13
  14. Orlando  de Frias

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > > Well the first thing you have to do is ignore people with closed minds
    > > that offer advice like "ditch frontpage... No Really Run....
    > > Evaluate the stupidity of that line. It puts the rest of the advice in
    > > proper prospective...

    > Please, then, give me one good reason why this person should use
    > FrontPage


    Here are three, They own it. they like it, and they know how to use it.

    > Really, Whitcrest. You give out this "ignore people with
    > closed minds" advice quite a bit, it seems, (well, at least, more than
    > once).


    No you are right quite a bit

    > But the simple reality is that FrontPage is Not Good (TM) and
    > nothing open or closed about my mind (or others) is going to change that
    > fact.


    It is not good to you. Several here use it to produce perfectly good
    code.

    > With that said, though, I have yet to see a "good" HTML page generated by
    > FrontPage.


    How do you know? Not all front page sites proclaim they are created
    with front page. Especially the good ones where the developer may take
    out the reference to it.

    > I *have* seen some pretty darn good Dreamweaver pages, so I
    > know it is possible for a WYSIWYG tool to generate decent HTML.


    I am a dreamweaver use. Love it. But in the end, it is nothing more
    than a glorifies text editor. Just like frontpage.

    > But this
    > group is alt.html and that is why the overwhelming response to people
    > using FrontPage is to ditch it! FrontPage SUCKS as an HTML tool, plain and
    > simple!!!


    Your opinion. I disagree.

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Mar 5, 2004
    #14
  15. On Fri, 5 Mar 2004 16:00:28 -0500, Whitecrest <>
    wrote:

    >Front page is capable of producing perfectly good code. If it doesn't,
    >then it is the developers fault. And they would end up doing the same
    >thing with any editor.


    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">

    How do you get FP to generate this first line of required code?

    Cheers,
    Jason
    Jason Henning, Mar 7, 2004
    #15
  16. Orlando  de Frias

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > >Front page is capable of producing perfectly good code. If it doesn't,
    > >then it is the developers fault. And they would end up doing the same
    > >thing with any editor.

    > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    > How do you get FP to generate this first line of required code?


    Uh... hmmm.... the keyboard?

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Mar 7, 2004
    #16
  17. On Sat, 6 Mar 2004 22:59:11 -0500, Whitecrest <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >> >Front page is capable of producing perfectly good code. If it doesn't,
    >> >then it is the developers fault. And they would end up doing the same
    >> >thing with any editor.


    >> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    >> How do you get FP to generate this first line of required code?


    >Uh... hmmm.... the keyboard?


    So FP can't generate "perfectly good code". To get this required piece
    of code, FP has no more functionality than notepad.

    Either that or your definitions of "perfectly" and "good" are quite
    different than mine. For me, if an html editor can't produce a single
    page that's compliant with html standards, it's not producing
    perfectly good code.


    Cheers,
    Jason Henning
    Jason Henning, Mar 7, 2004
    #17
  18. Orlando  de Frias

    Whitecrest Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > >> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    > >> How do you get FP to generate this first line of required code?

    > >Uh... hmmm.... the keyboard?

    >
    > So FP can't generate "perfectly good code". To get this required piece
    > of code, FP has no more functionality than notepad.


    Go back and read what I said before you appear too stupid. (too late?)
    I stated that Front page, Dreamweaver, and anything else is little more
    than a glorified text editor.

    > Either that or your definitions of "perfectly" and "good" are quite
    > different than mine. For me, if an html editor can't produce a single
    > page that's compliant with html standards, it's not producing
    > perfectly good code.


    Guess you havent a clue what a development tool is do you?

    --
    Whitecrest Entertainment
    www.whitecrestent.com
    Whitecrest, Mar 7, 2004
    #18
  19. Orlando  de Frias

    Sid Ismail Guest

    On Sat, 06 Mar 2004 22:04:30 -0500, Jason Henning <>
    wrote:

    : <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    :
    : How do you get FP to generate this first line of required code?


    Ask in a FP group. We abhor FP here.

    Sid
    Sid Ismail, Mar 7, 2004
    #19
  20. On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 05:34:21 -0500, Whitecrest <>
    wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >> >> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    >> >> How do you get FP to generate this first line of required code?
    >> >Uh... hmmm.... the keyboard?

    >>
    >> So FP can't generate "perfectly good code". To get this required piece
    >> of code, FP has no more functionality than notepad.

    >
    >Go back and read what I said before you appear too stupid. (too late?)


    And then the name calling starts...

    >I stated that Front page, Dreamweaver, and anything else is little more
    >than a glorified text editor.


    You also said, "Front page is capable of producing perfectly good
    code." With respect to a whole and complete html page, FP can not
    produce an html compliant page. FP can produce bits and pieces of
    compliant code. I'll even say it can produce 99.99999999% compliant
    page. However, the starter code is:

    <html>
    <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
    charset=windows-1252">
    <meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
    <meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
    <title>New Page 1</title>
    </head>
    <body>
    </body>
    </html>

    And this is not to standard. This is not perfectly good code. Plain
    and simple.

    >> Either that or your definitions of "perfectly" and "good" are quite
    >> different than mine. For me, if an html editor can't produce a single
    >> page that's compliant with html standards, it's not producing
    >> perfectly good code.

    >
    >Guess you havent a clue what a development tool is do you?


    You are putting words in my mouth, I never said it wasn't a
    development tool. I said it can't generate a complete web page with
    compliant code.
    Jason Henning, Mar 7, 2004
    #20
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