IE7:Headache?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by lengthsman@btinternet.com, Mar 29, 2006.

  1. Guest

    Normally the threat of even more hacks to render a page would leave me
    in a cold sweat but regarding IE7 problems, not today. MS Vista has
    been put back at least nine months, why? I suspect they have gone down
    the wrong track and they are having to re-evaluated where Windows
    should be. I'm old enough to remember people not taking Windows For
    Workgroups seriously as networking was Novell's field.

    Off topic? How about if I were to change the perspective.

    OS: Google / Yahoo
    Server: Apache
    Application code: HTML,Java,PHP developed in Adobe,Macromedia,SUN
    File store: XML

    What else do we need? Terminals and a rendering engine for PDA, Mobile
    Phones, PC's etc...

    Terminals : Linux, Windows, Mac. And that's before you even start on
    hand held devices running embedded Linux and windows or bespoke
    OS's...

    Rendering engines: They way I see it is that everybody is aiming for
    W3C compliance with the exception of maybe MS who up until a couple of
    days ago thought that they could still control the market. The days of
    the browser wars with subtle differences desperately trying to keep a
    percentage of the market has long gone and those not W3C compliant
    today will be the once ran, tomorrow. Not convinced?

    How many rendering engines are there today? Did you include the
    PDA's, Phones, WebTV? Could you employ enough hacks and server side
    detection to cover all of them and still meet UK (coming to EU and US
    soon) accessibility? I don't think so either and the market has known
    this for a while. Like the mobile phone market, products will have to
    be feature rich as network compatibility is just too important to mess
    with.

    What brought on this rant? A meeting with a client who's retains the
    old adage that 'the customer is always right', and well most of his
    competitors have fallen by the wayside because in his customer's
    words 'they didn't give them what they wanted'. Multiplied by
    what he now wanted was an e-commerce system that would allow a customer
    to browse products on their PC, if they need time to finalise the
    decision, order or check status on their mobile phone or PDA.

    The standards are there, as are most of the platforms, hands up who
    want's to exclude themselves! MS IE7? Opera and Firefox and others
    are constantly fixing their rendering engines with regular updates to
    meet the emerging market trends.
     
    , Mar 29, 2006
    #1
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  2. jb Guest

    wrote:
    > Normally the threat of even more hacks to render a page would leave me
    > in a cold sweat but regarding IE7 problems, not today. MS Vista has
    > been put back at least nine months, why? I suspect they have gone down
    > the wrong track and they are having to re-evaluated where Windows
    > should be. I'm old enough to remember people not taking Windows For
    > Workgroups seriously as networking was Novell's field.
    >
    > Off topic? How about if I were to change the perspective.
    >
    > OS: Google / Yahoo
    > Server: Apache
    > Application code: HTML,Java,PHP developed in Adobe,Macromedia,SUN
    > File store: XML
    >
    > What else do we need? Terminals and a rendering engine for PDA, Mobile
    > Phones, PC's etc...
    >
    > Terminals : Linux, Windows, Mac. And that's before you even start on
    > hand held devices running embedded Linux and windows or bespoke
    > OS's...
    >
    > Rendering engines: They way I see it is that everybody is aiming for
    > W3C compliance with the exception of maybe MS who up until a couple of
    > days ago thought that they could still control the market. The days of
    > the browser wars with subtle differences desperately trying to keep a
    > percentage of the market has long gone and those not W3C compliant
    > today will be the once ran, tomorrow. Not convinced?
    >
    > How many rendering engines are there today? Did you include the
    > PDA's, Phones, WebTV? Could you employ enough hacks and server side
    > detection to cover all of them and still meet UK (coming to EU and US
    > soon) accessibility? I don't think so either and the market has known
    > this for a while. Like the mobile phone market, products will have to
    > be feature rich as network compatibility is just too important to mess
    > with.
    >
    > What brought on this rant? A meeting with a client who's retains the
    > old adage that 'the customer is always right', and well most of his
    > competitors have fallen by the wayside because in his customer's
    > words 'they didn't give them what they wanted'. Multiplied by
    > what he now wanted was an e-commerce system that would allow a customer
    > to browse products on their PC, if they need time to finalise the
    > decision, order or check status on their mobile phone or PDA.
    >
    > The standards are there, as are most of the platforms, hands up who
    > want's to exclude themselves! MS IE7? Opera and Firefox and others
    > are constantly fixing their rendering engines with regular updates to
    > meet the emerging market trends.
    >


    IE7 is rock solid.
     
    jb, Mar 29, 2006
    #2
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  3. Guest

    , Mar 29, 2006
    #3
  4. jb Guest

    jb, Mar 29, 2006
    #4
  5. Jim Higson Guest

    jb wrote:

    > IE7 is rock solid.


    IE7 is where Opera, Firefox etc were 4 years ago.
    Here's an interesting page, with shots of Acid2 under Opera 1-9 and IE6/7:

    http://www.howtocreate.co.uk/operaStuff/acid/

    IE7 seems to be about the same as Opera 4.

    --
    Jim
     
    Jim Higson, Mar 29, 2006
    #5
  6. Travis Newbury, Mar 29, 2006
    #6

  7. > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has
    > 40
    > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.
    >
    > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then
    > it
    > is good bye FF, hello IE7


    I think you are the only one who thinks so...
     
    Gernot Frisch, Mar 29, 2006
    #7
  8. Jim Higson Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:

    > wrote:
    >> > IE7 is rock solid.

    >>

    http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports/archives/explorer_7_beta_2/index.html
    >
    > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
    > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.


    Or to look at it another way, only 40 have been found in Moz while loads of
    people are using it every day. Hardly anyone uses IE7 and they've already
    found more.

    Most of the bugs on that page are layout related and IE is in a "layout
    freeze" so these problems with the beta will probably be there in the final
    realease.

    > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
    > is good bye FF, hello IE7


    I suppose when you're surfing as an end user it doesn't really matter since
    the designer will have hacked around whatever IE bugs pop up.
     
    Jim Higson, Mar 29, 2006
    #8
  9. Guest

    Jim Higson wrote:
    > Travis Newbury wrote:
    >
    > > wrote:
    > >> > IE7 is rock solid.
    > >>

    > http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports/archives/explorer_7_beta_2/index.html
    > >
    > > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
    > > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.

    >
    > Or to look at it another way, only 40 have been found in Moz while loads of
    > people are using it every day. Hardly anyone uses IE7 and they've already
    > found more.
    >
    > Most of the bugs on that page are layout related and IE is in a "layout
    > freeze" so these problems with the beta will probably be there in the final
    > realease.
    >
    > > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
    > > is good bye FF, hello IE7

    >
    > I suppose when you're surfing as an end user it doesn't really matter since
    > the designer will have hacked around whatever IE bugs pop up.



    For a while I thought it was only me that notice the "layout freeze" so
    that's about what? 9 months min for vista then what another 12 before
    IE7.5 meanwhile in 24 months an expected 25% web access will be from
    embedded devices who are currently trying to achieve XHTML strict CSS 2
    browsers. If Opera/Mozilla continues with the momentum they will
    probably be there as well and will have taken a lot more of the market.
    Meanwhile back at MS HQ will have their fingers crossed hoping that an
    external developer has found a hack to fix their bugs!

    Quote from alistapart.com

    "Catching different browser bugs to maintain my design instead of
    simply display the line 'you are using substandard and defected
    software; if it can't display this page properly do you really want
    to try a secure credit card transaction'."

    I WISH !!!
     
    , Mar 29, 2006
    #9
  10. Jim Higson Guest

    wrote:
    > For a while I thought it was only me that notice the "layout freeze" so
    > that's about what? 9 months min for vista then what another 12 before
    > IE7.5 meanwhile in 24 months an expected 25% web access will be from
    > embedded devices who are currently trying to achieve XHTML strict CSS 2
    > browsers. If Opera/Mozilla continues with the momentum they will
    > probably be there as well and will have taken a lot more of the market.
    > Meanwhile back at MS HQ will have their fingers crossed hoping that an
    > external developer has found a hack to fix their bugs!


    The 25% you quote - that's very interesting - where is that from? What would
    a phone maker do:

    (a) pay MS for using their not very good renderer
    (b) get a good one (Gecko, KTHML) for free, pay some for support
    (c) pay Opera for the best renderer out there
    (d) make and support your own (very expensive)

    I can't see too many choosing (a). Personally I'd choose between Opera and
    KHTML - Gecko is probably a little too heavy for small CPUs. IIRC, KHTML is
    favoured by Nokia for their phones.

    > Quote from alistapart.com
    >
    > "Catching different browser bugs to maintain my design instead of
    > simply display the line 'you are using substandard and defected
    > software; if it can't display this page properly do you really want
    > to try a secure credit card transaction'."
    >
    > I WISH !!!


    Me too. In the real world though users are more likely to think "if this
    site can't display the page properly, do I really want to try a secure
    credit card transaction?".

    --
    Jim
     
    Jim Higson, Mar 29, 2006
    #10
  11. Travis Newbury wrote:

    > wrote:
    >>> IE7 is rock solid.

    >> http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports/archives/explorer_7_beta_2/index.html

    >
    > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
    > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.
    >
    > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
    > is good bye FF, hello IE7


    Those are all display rendering bugs. What about all the security holes?
    You up for that?

    --
    -bts
    -Warning: I brake for lawn deer
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Mar 29, 2006
    #11
  12. Guest

    It came from an article in EETimes (I think) the main theme was about
    the surprising uptake (but maybe not in hindsight) of 802.11 opening a
    real opportunity for inter-device operation. USB options are bespoke
    software and XP or USB mass storage and poor device control, but with a
    larger market of 802.11 add web interface and mini server... This was
    further supported by a study that reported that if you gave to groups
    of people a task with poor instruction, one using a PC App interface
    and the other a web interface, same task and options, the web interface
    users where more likely to complete due to a higher confidence level.

    If you already have a screen and 802.11, internet access is a zero cost
    feature

    Digital camera, http or ftp in to get your pictures (can you really
    support all browsers?) zero cost addition, upload from the camera
    straight to your web site or online or offline printer. Product and OS
    compatibility? ALL. The flaw browser compatibility, hence the XHTML
    strict & CSS2. All the product then has to state in the manual problem
    page is: if the display is broken then is not a fault of this product.
    A bit of marketing and the main line browsers will have to keep up or
    fall by the wayside. The Internet is no longer just about HTTP it's
    the first real generic access point, that's access to your work,
    shops, local news, TV, radio, your camera, phone and home.

    As normal it'll come down to market forces, just as if you remove
    Home use & office (the MS product not office computer use in general)
    Microsoft is losing a lot of ground to Linux especially Novell/SUSE
    desktop and Redhat Enterprise and if the control panel of my printer,
    camera, phone and PVR looks great in Opera but not IE which one do you
    think the manufactures will recommend and friends and family tell you
    to use.
     
    , Mar 30, 2006
    #12
  13. Gernot Frisch wrote:
    > > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has
    > > 40
    > > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.
    > > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then
    > > it
    > > is good bye FF, hello IE7

    > I think you are the only one who thinks so...


    Perhaps in this group, But if they end up coming close to the current
    version of FF when they get done, you will see plenty of people go back
    to IE
     
    Travis Newbury, Mar 30, 2006
    #13
  14. Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    > >>> IE7 is rock solid.
    > >> http://www.quirksmode.org/bugreports/archives/explorer_7_beta_2/index.html

    > > Actually 69 bugs while in beta is not that bad. Heck, mozilla has 40
    > > current bugs, and it isn't in beta.
    > > If IE7 gives me some tabs and a few other FF features I like, then it
    > > is good bye FF, hello IE7

    > Those are all display rendering bugs. What about all the security holes?
    > You up for that?


    Equally as much as with all other software.
     
    Travis Newbury, Mar 30, 2006
    #14
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