In praise of Eclipse

R

Roedy Green

I made a number of tentative pokes at Eclipse before hanging in there
long enough to want to switch over.

It is not nearly as complicated as you might first think.

The biggest problem is knowing what they mean by a workspace, and
project, and a perspective. They sound grand and mysterious,but
simple as could be.

a workspace is simple the aggregate of all the source and class files
in a one directory tree.

It consists of several projects, each with many packages, each with
many classes.

The key is understanding that a project is not the same as a package
as you may be used to thinking

Eclipse has all kinds of optional windows, called views, you can bring
up or dismiss. One of my favourites is the package explorer that lets
you find any method or variable in any class in any package.

A "perspective" then is just a convenient combination of windows/views
-- a layout so that you can quickly bring up a convenient set for
editing, debugging, running or any other task.

Whomever assigned the keystrokes never used Windows. None of them map
by default to the usual Windows places, not even F3. However, that
all can be rectified with patience.

It is a whole different style of working where you hand over more and
more editing and fixing to Eclipse. Coming back it feels as if my Text
editor is lazy or asleep.

I make great use of the format and method reordering to keep programs
tidy rather than for example taking effort to insert a new variable or
method where it logically belongs. Just stick it at the end or right
next the method you are working on, then let Eclipse clean it up.

Don't waste keystrokes fiddling with the stars or spacing, or line
length in comments. Eclipse will clean it all up.

Use the global rename to get the names of thing absolutely perfect to
avoid ambiguities. When the code is about done you can use longer
names that will bake the code clearer for maintenance.

I have never used a debugger that so seamlessly integrated. It points
you to the exact place in the code every time. It does not ignore
some breakpoints, or refuse to divulge the values of some variables
when you hit a breakpoint. It knows the types of everything.

The place that give me the biggest hassle is jar building. Eclipse
can't seem to build a decent jar so I export and do it the old
fashioned way. However all my pent-up class renaming, splitting, and
moving around that I do drives that process nuts. My lists of what to
include in the jars are always badly out of date.

I have despised ant as a lot of fuss to do what you could more easily
do with a simple bat file, but I guess I will have to learn it
properly to use genjar.


The bottom line, give Eclipse a try, and stick with it for a few days.
It really is far far simpler than it first looks. This is so much
faster than the old text editor way of writing code.



--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm

Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
 
W

Wibble

Roedy said:
I made a number of tentative pokes at Eclipse before hanging in there
long enough to want to switch over.

It is not nearly as complicated as you might first think.

The biggest problem is knowing what they mean by a workspace, and
project, and a perspective. They sound grand and mysterious,but
simple as could be.

a workspace is simple the aggregate of all the source and class files
in a one directory tree.

It consists of several projects, each with many packages, each with
many classes.

The key is understanding that a project is not the same as a package
as you may be used to thinking

Eclipse has all kinds of optional windows, called views, you can bring
up or dismiss. One of my favourites is the package explorer that lets
you find any method or variable in any class in any package.

A "perspective" then is just a convenient combination of windows/views
-- a layout so that you can quickly bring up a convenient set for
editing, debugging, running or any other task.

Whomever assigned the keystrokes never used Windows. None of them map
by default to the usual Windows places, not even F3. However, that
all can be rectified with patience.

It is a whole different style of working where you hand over more and
more editing and fixing to Eclipse. Coming back it feels as if my Text
editor is lazy or asleep.

I make great use of the format and method reordering to keep programs
tidy rather than for example taking effort to insert a new variable or
method where it logically belongs. Just stick it at the end or right
next the method you are working on, then let Eclipse clean it up.

Don't waste keystrokes fiddling with the stars or spacing, or line
length in comments. Eclipse will clean it all up.

Use the global rename to get the names of thing absolutely perfect to
avoid ambiguities. When the code is about done you can use longer
names that will bake the code clearer for maintenance.

I have never used a debugger that so seamlessly integrated. It points
you to the exact place in the code every time. It does not ignore
some breakpoints, or refuse to divulge the values of some variables
when you hit a breakpoint. It knows the types of everything.

The place that give me the biggest hassle is jar building. Eclipse
can't seem to build a decent jar so I export and do it the old
fashioned way. However all my pent-up class renaming, splitting, and
moving around that I do drives that process nuts. My lists of what to
include in the jars are always badly out of date.

I have despised ant as a lot of fuss to do what you could more easily
do with a simple bat file, but I guess I will have to learn it
properly to use genjar.


The bottom line, give Eclipse a try, and stick with it for a few days.
It really is far far simpler than it first looks. This is so much
faster than the old text editor way of writing code.
This is the second time you praised eclipse for doing what every IDE
does and everybody here knows anyway. I'd think they were paying you if
they weren't open source.
 
S

Steve Sobol

Roedy said:
Whomever assigned the keystrokes never used Windows. None of them map
by default to the usual Windows places, not even F3. However, that
all can be rectified with patience.

I think it can also be rectified by customizing the keyboard layout.
(Although I'm not 100% sure and I haven't tried doing that yet.)
The place that give me the biggest hassle is jar building. Eclipse
can't seem to build a decent jar so I export and do it the old
fashioned way. However all my pent-up class renaming, splitting, and
moving around that I do drives that process nuts. My lists of what to
include in the jars are always badly out of date.

I don't have a problem with the jar builder.

I do, however, miss NetBeans' virtual filesystems. It would be wonderful if
I could mount a filesystem over FTP, CVS or DAV instead of having to import,
synchronize, blah blah blah. FTP/DAV issues I can get around by mapping a
Windows drive using WebDrive, but CVS isn't as easy. OTOH, I expect to have
to do checkins and checkouts via CVS. I'd like to save via FTP/DAV by just
using the Save menu item.
I have despised ant as a lot of fuss to do what you could more easily
do with a simple bat file, but I guess I will have to learn it
properly to use genjar.

It has some Java-specific features that do prove useful at times.

**SJS (Eclipse convert!)

--
JustThe.net - Steve Sobol / (e-mail address removed) / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Coming to you from Southern California's High Desert, where the
temperatures are as high as the gas prices! / 888.480.4NET (4638)

"Life's like an hourglass glued to the table" --Anna Nalick, "Breathe"
 
H

Hal Rosser

Roedy Green said:
I made a number of tentative pokes at Eclipse before hanging in there
long enough to want to switch over.

It is not nearly as complicated as you might first think.

The biggest problem is knowing what they mean by a workspace, and
project, and a perspective. They sound grand and mysterious,but
simple as could be.

a workspace is simple the aggregate of all the source and class files
in a one directory tree.

It consists of several projects, each with many packages, each with
many classes.

The key is understanding that a project is not the same as a package
as you may be used to thinking

Eclipse has all kinds of optional windows, called views, you can bring
up or dismiss. One of my favourites is the package explorer that lets
you find any method or variable in any class in any package.

A "perspective" then is just a convenient combination of windows/views
-- a layout so that you can quickly bring up a convenient set for
editing, debugging, running or any other task.

Whomever assigned the keystrokes never used Windows. None of them map
by default to the usual Windows places, not even F3. However, that
all can be rectified with patience.

It is a whole different style of working where you hand over more and
more editing and fixing to Eclipse. Coming back it feels as if my Text
editor is lazy or asleep.

I make great use of the format and method reordering to keep programs
tidy rather than for example taking effort to insert a new variable or
method where it logically belongs. Just stick it at the end or right
next the method you are working on, then let Eclipse clean it up.

Don't waste keystrokes fiddling with the stars or spacing, or line
length in comments. Eclipse will clean it all up.

Use the global rename to get the names of thing absolutely perfect to
avoid ambiguities. When the code is about done you can use longer
names that will bake the code clearer for maintenance.

I have never used a debugger that so seamlessly integrated. It points
you to the exact place in the code every time. It does not ignore
some breakpoints, or refuse to divulge the values of some variables
when you hit a breakpoint. It knows the types of everything.

The place that give me the biggest hassle is jar building. Eclipse
can't seem to build a decent jar so I export and do it the old
fashioned way. However all my pent-up class renaming, splitting, and
moving around that I do drives that process nuts. My lists of what to
include in the jars are always badly out of date.

I have despised ant as a lot of fuss to do what you could more easily
do with a simple bat file, but I guess I will have to learn it
properly to use genjar.


The bottom line, give Eclipse a try, and stick with it for a few days.
It really is far far simpler than it first looks. This is so much
faster than the old text editor way of writing code.



--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm

Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes

You lose all credibility and respect as a person by smearing our President.
Keep it to Java, please.
 
S

Steve Sobol

Hal said:
You lose all credibility and respect as a person by smearing our President.

Smearing?

Bush has a lot of issues. Some people take much offense when some of those
issues are pointed out. But let's move on to the important part of your reply:
Keep it to Java, please.

Well, considering that you were referring to his SIGNATURE, and considering
that the body of his post WAS not offtopic for the group, I think you're a
little off-base.

I think you're off-base in the same way that people complaining about sigs
like mine being spam are off-base. Signatures are bits of text appended to a
post. They don't constitute the body of a post.

Roedy's post about the Eclipse IDE wasn't offtopic. It is primarily a Java
IDE, and it is used by Java programmers. We're talking about someone who
posts content to this group. We're not talking about someone who happened to
post an offtopic political rant in a programming group...

--
JustThe.net - Steve Sobol / (e-mail address removed) / PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Coming to you from Southern California's High Desert, where the
temperatures are as high as the gas prices! / 888.480.4NET (4638)

"Life's like an hourglass glued to the table" --Anna Nalick, "Breathe"
 
R

Roedy Green

You lose all credibility and respect as a person by smearing our President.
Keep it to Java, please.

I'm not smearing. Follow the URL. Rumsfeld confesses!

People are unaware of this.


--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm

Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
 
R

Roedy Green

This is the second time you praised eclipse for doing what every IDE
does and everybody here knows anyway. I'd think they were paying you if
they weren't open source.

The intended audience for that post is people who are still using text
editors for creating code. They are likely doing that because Jbuilder
shoved them out the door years ago with the $1K+ prices.

--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm

Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
 
R

Roedy Green

I think it can also be rectified by customizing the keyboard layout.
(Although I'm not 100% sure and I haven't tried doing that yet.)

I have an unusual keyboard, a DsK Kinesis. Ctrl-shift is done with
shift with the left pinky simultaneously with ctrl with the left
thumb, leaving the right hand to cross over and hit the letter. It is
the sort of keyboard moves Liszt would write for himself and his giant
hands.

Obviously Eclipse's many keystrokes chords were not created with this
keyboard in mind.

--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm

Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
 
C

Chris Smith

Hal Rosser said:
Keep it to Java, please.

Oddly enough, I saw a lot more helpful Java-related content in Roedy's
post than in yours. Please don't spam technical newsgroups with your
complaints about lack of respect for the president of the United States.
It's not only off-topic, but very inconsiderate and rude.

(Incidentally, you realize this is an international newsgroup, right?
It's not limited to Americans, and Roedy is not an American.)

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation
 
J

jan V

This is the second time you praised eclipse for doing what every IDE
The intended audience for that post is people who are still using text
editors for creating code. They are likely doing that because Jbuilder
shoved them out the door years ago with the $1K+ prices.

I've recently had the pleasure of working on a project using IntelliJ.. it's
$500 a seat, but oh boy does it put you in a different coding league
altogether. I used to be a Netbeans fan... now, back on my free NetBeans
(can't afford my own license for IntelliJ), I'm cursing Netbeans for being
so "asleep and lazy" to use your expression.

I did have a look at Eclipse, and thought it was very clunky compared to
IntelliJ. Also it forces you to have Internet Explorer x.x on your machine,
and that's a virus magnet, so no thanks.
 
J

jan V

Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
You lose all credibility and respect as a person by smearing our
President.

On the contrary. He deserves praise for showing integrity and guts and using
his right to freedom of speech in a (rather more) democratic country than
the US is today. Roedy would never instruct anyone else to go bomb innocent
children just for economic reasons either.

"smearing our President"... arsehole.
 
T

Tim Tyler

Hal Rosser said:
You lose all credibility and respect as a person by smearing our President.
Keep it to Java, please.

The main problem I see with Roedy's signature is that it takes up
six lines - which is longer the regulation four lines long.
 
T

Tim Tyler

jan V said:
I did have a look at Eclipse, and thought it was very clunky compared to
IntelliJ. Also it forces you to have Internet Explorer x.x on your machine,
and that's a virus magnet, so no thanks.

Eclipse doesn't force you to have Internet Explorer on your machine -
at least not if your are using Linux it doesn't ;-)
 
I

IchBin

jan said:
I've recently had the pleasure of working on a project using IntelliJ.. it's
$500 a seat, but oh boy does it put you in a different coding league
altogether. I used to be a Netbeans fan... now, back on my free NetBeans
(can't afford my own license for IntelliJ), I'm cursing Netbeans for being
so "asleep and lazy" to use your expression.

I did have a look at Eclipse, and thought it was very clunky compared to
IntelliJ. Also it forces you to have Internet Explorer x.x on your machine,
and that's a virus magnet, so no thanks.
I run Eclipse 3.1 on Windows XP SP 2. It doesn't force you to have
Internet Explorer on your machine.

look under menu item 'Window'

'Preferences \ General \ Web Browser'

or for displaying the Help information

'Under Preferences \ Help'

--


Thanks in Advance...
IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA http://weconsultants.servebeer.com
__________________________________________________________________________

' If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"'
-William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-)
 
A

Andrew Thompson

..signature is that it takes up
six lines - which is longer the regulation

...'regulation'? [1]
..four lines long.

[1] The closest I have seen to 'regulation' of these
unmoderated groups is RFC 1855, a copy of which can be
seen here.. <http://www.physci.org/rfc/rfc1855.jsp>.

The only mention it contains as to sig. length is a
single point under ..
<http://www.physci.org/rfc/rfc1855.jsp#2_1_1>
...to whit..

2.1 User Guidelines
2.1.1 For mail
...
- "If you include a signature keep it short. Rule of thumb
is no longer than 4 lines. .."

Note - 'rule of thumb', not 'regulation'.
 
E

EricF

..signature is that it takes up
six lines - which is longer the regulation

...'regulation'? [1]
..four lines long.

[1] The closest I have seen to 'regulation' of these
unmoderated groups is RFC 1855, a copy of which can be
seen here.. <http://www.physci.org/rfc/rfc1855.jsp>.

The only mention it contains as to sig. length is a
single point under ..
<http://www.physci.org/rfc/rfc1855.jsp#2_1_1>
...to whit..

2.1 User Guidelines
2.1.1 For mail
...
- "If you include a signature keep it short. Rule of thumb
is no longer than 4 lines. .."

Note - 'rule of thumb', not 'regulation'.

Jeez peoples. can we get back to Java? Or request a new group -
alt.whineAboutSignaturesThatIDisgreeWith
 
D

Dale King

Steve said:
Smearing?

Yes, smearing. "Bush crime family" is definitely smearing.
Bush has a lot of issues. Some people take much offense when some of
those issues are pointed out.

I think its more that some people have issues with Bush.

But the important thing is that this is not the forum to discuss any of
that. Roedy posting that nonsense in his signature is inviting
discussion of it which has already consumed dozens of messages in
multiple threads, which is harming this group.
 
D

Dale King

Roedy said:
I'm not smearing. Follow the URL. Rumsfeld confesses!

This nonsense is not worthy of a response, but here goes.

Actually the URL is not valid. There is no infowars.com. But I found the
transcript on another site and I see no confession of anything by
Rumsfeld in that transcript. He actually says little of anything of
substance in that testimony and nothing on the question of missing money
other than we'll get back to you on that. The only one that addresses
that issue is the comptroller Tina Jonas. The only mention of Bush is a
reference to the speech he gave at the U.N.

Your other link is also not up to date. But it contains so much nonsense
it is not worth going to. Roedy, if you want people to listen to you on
Java you really don't want to point people to that site, because they'll
definitely consider you a kook reading your wacky conspiracy theories.
That site also contains many, many graphic pictures that are not
appropriate for younger readers.

But once again none of this has anything to do with Java, is untrue, and
is hurting this group. Take it elsewhere!
 
R

Roedy Green

Yes, smearing. "Bush crime family" is definitely smearing.

Smearing is making an untrue accusation. I am pointing you to a video
where Rumsfeld explains that he indeed did "lose" that vast amount of
money.

People have opinions on the video without even viewing it.

--
Bush crime family lost/embezzled $3 trillion from Pentagon.
Complicit Bush-friendly media keeps mum. Rumsfeld confesses on video.
http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/mckinney_grills_rumsfeld.htm

Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
See http://mindprod.com/iraq.html photos of Bush's war crimes
 
D

Dale King

Roedy said:
Smearing is making an untrue accusation. I am pointing you to a video
where Rumsfeld explains that he indeed did "lose" that vast amount of
money.

As I said, you are actually not pointing to anything because the site
doesn't exist, Rumsfeld explained nothing, and last I checked even if he
had he is not a member of the Bush family.

The figures sited in the transcript are:

Fiscal year 1999 2.3 Trillion missing
Fiscal year 2000 1.1 Trillion missing

In 1999 and 2000 the only members of the Bush family in government
office were governors of Texas and Florida and had nothing to do with
the Pentagon. George Bush was not president until January 2001.

According to the Pentagon the reason they can't account for the money is
their antiquated computer systems that can't talk to each other. It
appears like poor accounting rather than actual theft. Hanlon's razor
applies here: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately
explained by stupidity. And as we all know there is plenty of stupidity
in the military.

However those figures make little sense to me. The DoD budget is around
400 billion, so how can you be missing 5 times your budget? I'm guessing
that those figures are cummulative.

Therefore to claim that a member of the Bush family lost/embezzeled this
money when no member of the Bush family was in national office is
definitely smearing. But of course you can't be bothered with facts.
You've got a political agenda to promote and facts just get in the way.
People have opinions on the video without even viewing it.

I've read the transcript here:
http://www.internetcheese.com/content/view/94/2/

The only words of Rumsfeld even addressing the issue (which was question
number 2) is:

"We, We will get back on both of the first two questions..."

And once again none of this has anything to do with Java and should not
be discussed here. Take it elsewhere!
 

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