in your opinion

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by Robin, Aug 6, 2010.

  1. Robin

    Robin Guest

    Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    programming language I'm trying to have a vote so I can find out, so
    if I want to learn it and move towards using it a lot more I will have
    more consensus / census type info...
    Thanks,
    -Robin
     
    Robin, Aug 6, 2010
    #1
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  2. On Thu, 05 Aug 2010 16:57:46 -0700, Robin wrote:

    > Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    > programming language


    The best for what?
     
    Jens Stuckelberger, Aug 6, 2010
    #2
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  3. Robin

    John Kelly Guest

    On Thu, 5 Aug 2010 16:57:46 -0700 (PDT), Robin <> wrote:

    >Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    >programming language I'm trying to have a vote so I can find out, so
    >if I want to learn it and move towards using it a lot more I will have
    >more consensus / census type info...


    C is like assembly language on steroids. Good for speed, and shooting
    yourself in the foot.


    --
    Web mail, POP3, and SMTP
    http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php
     
    John Kelly, Aug 6, 2010
    #3
  4. Robin

    Guest

    Robin <> wrote:
    > Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    > programming language


    Do you think red is the best color? The questions are equally
    meaningless.
    --
    Larry Jones

    Geez, I gotta have a REASON for everything? -- Calvin
     
    , Aug 6, 2010
    #4
  5. On Aug 6, 7:38 am, wrote:
    > Robin <> wrote:
    > > do you guys thing c is the best
    > > programming language


    Yes.

    > Do you think red is the best color?


    No. Purple is.

    James
     
    James Dow Allen, Aug 6, 2010
    #5
  6. On 6 Aug, 00:57, Robin <> wrote:

    > Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    > programming language I'm trying to have a vote so I can find out, so
    > if I want to learn it and move towards using it a lot more I will have
    > more consensus / census type info...


    a suffusion of yellow
     
    Nick Keighley, Aug 6, 2010
    #6
  7. On 6 Aug, 06:53, James Dow Allen <> wrote:
    > On Aug 6, 7:38 am, wrote:
    > > Robin <> wrote:


    > > > do you guys thing c is the best
    > > > programming language

    >
    > Yes.
    >
    > > Do you think red is the best color?

    >
    > No.  Purple is.


    when I was a kid I used to tell people my favourite colour was tartan
     
    Nick Keighley, Aug 6, 2010
    #7
  8. Robin

    Ian Collins Guest

    On 08/ 6/10 06:47 PM, Nick Keighley wrote:
    > On 6 Aug, 06:53, James Dow Allen<> wrote:
    >> On Aug 6, 7:38 am, wrote:
    >>> Robin<> wrote:

    >
    >>>> do you guys thing c is the best
    >>>> programming language

    >>
    >> Yes.
    >>
    >>> Do you think red is the best color?

    >>
    >> No. Purple is.

    >
    > when I was a kid I used to tell people my favourite colour was tartan


    I used to, but the paint shop had trouble blending it.

    --
    Ian Collins
     
    Ian Collins, Aug 6, 2010
    #8
  9. On 6 Aug, 00:57, Robin <> wrote:

    > Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    > programming language I'm trying to have a vote so I can find out, so
    > if I want to learn it and move towards using it a lot more I will have
    > more consensus / census type info...


    on a slightly more serious note. Programming languages are tools for
    doing things. What you want to do helps you decide what language to
    use. C is a relativly low level language. It is worth learning exactly
    because of its closeness to the machine. Also learn a language taht
    isn't close to the machine. I happen to like python. Some people like
    perl or ruby. Java and C# are widely used for writing commercial
    applications. Consider learning a language from a different paradigm
    Lisp, Caml, smalltalk etc.
     
    Nick Keighley, Aug 6, 2010
    #9
  10. Robin

    Eric Sosman Guest

    On 8/6/2010 2:49 AM, Ian Collins wrote:
    > On 08/ 6/10 06:47 PM, Nick Keighley wrote:
    >> On 6 Aug, 06:53, James Dow Allen<> wrote:
    >>> On Aug 6, 7:38 am, wrote:
    >>>> Robin<> wrote:

    >>
    >>>>> do you guys thing c is the best
    >>>>> programming language
    >>>
    >>> Yes.
    >>>
    >>>> Do you think red is the best color?
    >>>
    >>> No. Purple is.

    >>
    >> when I was a kid I used to tell people my favourite colour was tartan

    >
    > I used to, but the paint shop had trouble blending it.


    ... or perhaps they blended it correctly, but you applied
    it with the wrong side out.


    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
     
    Eric Sosman, Aug 6, 2010
    #10
  11. On Aug 6, 9:52 am, Nick Keighley <>
    wrote:
    >
    > on a slightly more serious note. Programming languages are tools for
    > doing things.
    >

    They are also a medium of communication. Is English a "better"
    language than Icelandic? I think it's hard to argue that it is. Should
    the average student in South Korea learn English or Icelandic? The
    answer is pretty obvious.
     
    Malcolm McLean, Aug 6, 2010
    #11
  12. On 6 Aug, 13:16, Malcolm McLean <>
    wrote:
    > On Aug 6, 9:52 am, Nick Keighley <>
    >
    > > on a slightly more serious note. Programming languages are tools for
    > > doing things.

    >
    > They are also a medium of communication.


    I agree with you up to here but not with where you appear to go with
    it

    > Is English a "better" language than Icelandic?


    the
    computer language <-> natural language
    mapping is, I think, at best an analogy. At worst it can lead you into
    trouble.

    The use of the Chomsky formalism is also responsible for the term
    "programming language", because programming languages seemed to
    exhibit a strucure similar to spoken languages. We believe that
    this term is rather unfortunate on the whole, because a programming
    language is not spoken, and therefore is not a language in the true
    sense of the word. Formalism or formal notation would have been
    more appropriate terms.
    Niklaus Wirth


    > I think it's hard to argue that it is.


    agreed. Any language that can cram a word like river into a single
    letter has got to be cool.

    > Should
    > the average student in South Korea learn English or Icelandic? The
    > answer is pretty obvious.


    yes but misleading. I think you're claiming that C is english and Lisp
    is Icelandic. Therefore J.Random non-european should learn the
    commoner language English and J.Random programmer the commoner
    formalism C.

    But full blown natural languages (as opposed to pidgins) are roughly
    equivalent in expressivity. Apparently the "eskimo has <large-n> words
    for snow" is a myth. So your decision for a natural language is based
    on how likely you are find other speakers.

    Formalisms are not equally expressive. It's quite easy to get lost in
    the trees (the details) in a C program and fail to see the forest (the
    expression of a solution to a problem). C's not bad for expressing
    computational algorithms. Not necessarily the best for other things.

    I'd still argue learning another language from a less standard
    paradigm is going to give you more ways to look at problems.

    "Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you
    will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a
    better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never
    actually use Lisp itself a lot." — Eric S. Raymond

    "Any sufficiently complicated C or Fortran program contains an ad hoc,
    informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of
    Common Lisp." Greenspun's 10th Law
     
    Nick Keighley, Aug 6, 2010
    #12
  13. Robin

    osmium Guest

    Malcolm McLean wrote:

    > They are also a medium of communication. Is English a "better"
    > language than Icelandic? I think it's hard to argue that it is. Should
    > the average student in South Korea learn English or Icelandic? The
    > answer is pretty obvious.


    I think that's the best answer you are likely to get. Where "best" means
    most useful to the person that asked the question.

    If you already have some background in programming, C has the additional
    advantage in that it is supported by one of the best examples of technical
    writing in the modern era. By page 34 of K&R you have been exposed to the
    fundamentals of the language and you can decide if you want to continue
    learning. You have wasted, at most, a few hours of your life.
     
    osmium, Aug 6, 2010
    #13
  14. On Aug 6, 11:40 pm, (Gordon Burditt) wrote:
    > >Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best

    >
    > Do you verb "thing"?  Why?


    Mmm hmm. Speak it.

    >
    > >programming language I'm trying to have a vote so I can find out, so
    > >if I want to learn it and move towards using it a lot more I will have
    > >more consensus / census type info...

    >
    > C is a terrible language for seducing women and killing cockroaches,
    > or vice versa.  


    Ain't that the truth?

    > Writing poetry in it is difficult and the result
    > awful.  It's a terrible language to try to teach to an infant as a
    > first language.  


    Hell yeah, just lay it out there.

    > (not first programming language).  


    Oh smack, good point.

    > It's much better
    > as a programming language for some tasks.  


    Preach that shit, brother!

    > What do you want to use
    > it for?


    OH HELL YEAH OH HELL YEAH
     
    Oliver Jackson, Aug 7, 2010
    #14
  15. Robin

    John Kelly Guest

    On Sat, 7 Aug 2010 01:15:33 -0700 (PDT), Oliver Jackson
    <> wrote:

    >On Aug 6, 11:40 pm, (Gordon Burditt) wrote:


    >> >Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best


    >> Writing poetry in it is difficult and the result
    >> awful.  It's a terrible language to try to teach to an infant as a
    >> first language.  

    >
    >Hell yeah, just lay it out there.
    >
    >> (not first programming language).  

    >
    >Oh smack, good point.
    >
    >> It's much better
    >> as a programming language for some tasks.  

    >
    >Preach that shit, brother!
    >
    >> What do you want to use
    >> it for?

    >
    >OH HELL YEAH OH HELL YEAH


    Heh heh.

    I pity the newbies wandering in here looking for friendly advice.

    Maybe C is not a friendly language, and makes programmers irritable.
    Maybe that's why these people act the way they do. You think?




    --
    Web mail, POP3, and SMTP
    http://www.beewyz.com/freeaccounts.php
     
    John Kelly, Aug 7, 2010
    #15
  16. Robin

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-08-07, John Kelly <> wrote:
    > I pity the newbies wandering in here looking for friendly advice.


    I don't! I've seen a lot of newbies who come here looking for friendly
    advice and get it.

    > Maybe C is not a friendly language, and makes programmers irritable.
    > Maybe that's why these people act the way they do. You think?


    Nah. Programming in C relaxes me. You wanna see me in a bad mood, talk
    to me after I've spent a day doing PHP.

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    Seebs, Aug 7, 2010
    #16
  17. Robin

    Dann Corbit Guest

    In article <4d11d63c-4d15-418d-b059-212ac47b2112
    @i31g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, says...
    >
    > Wondering, as a broad comment, do you guys thing c is the best
    > programming language I'm trying to have a vote so I can find out, so
    > if I want to learn it and move towards using it a lot more I will have
    > more consensus / census type info...


    C is the best procedural language for writing Unix style filter
    programs.

    Fortran is the best language for heavy number crunching.

    C++ is the best language for general OO because of the fantastic
    collection of tools that simplify its use.

    Perl is the best language for scripting.

    These opinions, along with $4.80, will get you a Venti Carmel Macchiato
    at Starbucks.

    P.S.
    The truth cannot be determined by vote. Just ask the Indiana State
    Legislature.
     
    Dann Corbit, Aug 9, 2010
    #17
  18. On Aug 10, 6:23 am, pete <> wrote:
    >
    > I think, but don't know, that C might be OK for a first language.
    >

    I think it's best to know assembly - for any processor - before
    learning C. A lot of C only makes sense if you understand what's going
    on behind the scenes. Pointers, in particular, cause trouble to
    newbies without an assembly background. For me they were no problem.
    "What's that funny star?" "It's the indirection operator". "Oh". That
    was all I needed.
     
    Malcolm McLean, Aug 10, 2010
    #18
  19. Robin

    Seebs Guest

    On 2010-08-10, Malcolm McLean <> wrote:
    > I think it's best to know assembly - for any processor - before
    > learning C. A lot of C only makes sense if you understand what's going
    > on behind the scenes. Pointers, in particular, cause trouble to
    > newbies without an assembly background. For me they were no problem.
    > "What's that funny star?" "It's the indirection operator". "Oh". That
    > was all I needed.


    I find this hilariously ironic given your argument that people shouldn't
    study the standard.

    In the real world, there are NO known examples of people who studied the
    standard writing overly-clever code (which then fails to work on real
    machines) as a result. However, there are THOUSANDS of examples of people
    who learned assembly first, and who then assume that the C compiler is
    a direct and naive translator to assembly, resulting in code which actually
    fails in fascinating ways.

    Now, on the whole, it may still be a good bet -- I've seen both good and
    bad programmers either way, so it's not easy to rule out. But if you're
    going to make the "knowledge is dangerous so let's not encourage it"
    argument, assembly would be a pretty canonical example.

    -s
    --
    Copyright 2010, all wrongs reversed. Peter Seebach /
    http://www.seebs.net/log/ <-- lawsuits, religion, and funny pictures
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Game_(Scientology) <-- get educated!
     
    Seebs, Aug 10, 2010
    #19
  20. On Aug 10, 10:56 am, Seebs <> wrote:
    >
    > In the real world, there are NO known examples of people who studied the
    > standard writing overly-clever code (which then fails to work on real
    > machines) as a result.
    >

    People who know the standard inside out often produce code with bugs.
    I know of nobody who has never checked in code with a bug.

    These bugs can be difficult to trace if the behaviour of the code
    relies on little-known quirks of the C compiler, particularly if the
    person with the job of correcting the program isn't basically a C
    programmer.
     
    Malcolm McLean, Aug 10, 2010
    #20
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