Information I hope will be passed to Larry Wall

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by George Peter Staplin, Dec 10, 2007.

  1. Unfortunately it seems Larry Wall is lying about several aspects of Tcl
    in his recent article on perl.com

    I hope that some of you will please pass this thread along to him, or
    that he will read it, and post a correction on perl.com

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/6b4aac569dadaba8?tvc=2

    At the very least he could state that his knowledge of Tcl is
    outdated. It would be the noble thing to do.

    "The string metaphor tends to have bad performance ramifications, but
    that's not why Tcl languished, I think. There were two reasons for
    that."

    He talks about Tcl as though it's dead or dying. There are TIPs (Tcl
    improvement proposals) being submitted, performance improvements, bug
    fixes, etc. going on almost everyday. It's not very respectful of the
    work of others.

    "First, Tcl stayed in the Unix mindset that controlling tools was the
    opposite of creating tools, so they didn't optimize much. The fast parts
    can always be written in C, after all."

    I'm a Tcl core developer (though not on the core team) and I can tell
    you that pure-Tcl speed is of upmost importance to most developers, and
    many man hours have gone into optimizing, benchmarking, and figuring
    out solutions. He does the Tcl community a disservice by stating
    we don't optimize much.

    "The second reason was the lack of a decent extension mechanism, so you
    ended up with separate executables for expect, incr-tcl, etc."

    This has not been true for many years. Expect and Incr-Tcl work as
    loadable extensions. An extension is loaded using dlopen()/dlsym() in
    POSIX/Unix and LoadLibrary()/etc. in Windows. A stubs mechanism is also
    provided to allow for backwards compatibility in C extensions for Tcl.

    Another common misconception is that Tcl doesn't support binary, which
    also is untrue, and has been for many years. Though Larry didn't
    specifically mention that.

    Please Larry Wall, don't misinform developers that don't know any
    better. I would appreciate a correction.

    Thank you,

    George
     
    George Peter Staplin, Dec 10, 2007
    #1
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  2. George Peter Staplin

    smallpond Guest

    On Dec 10, 4:19 am, George Peter Staplin
    <> wrote:
    > Unfortunately it seems Larry Wall is lying about several aspects of Tcl
    > in his recent article on perl.com
    >
    > I hope that some of you will please pass this thread along to him, or
    > that he will read it, and post a correction on perl.com
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.tcl/browse_thread/thread/6b4...
    >
    > At the very least he could state that his knowledge of Tcl is
    > outdated. It would be the noble thing to do.
    >
    > "The string metaphor tends to have bad performance ramifications, but
    > that's not why Tcl languished, I think. There were two reasons for
    > that."
    >
    > He talks about Tcl as though it's dead or dying. There are TIPs (Tcl
    > improvement proposals) being submitted, performance improvements, bug
    > fixes, etc. going on almost everyday. It's not very respectful of the
    > work of others.
    >
    > "First, Tcl stayed in the Unix mindset that controlling tools was the
    > opposite of creating tools, so they didn't optimize much. The fast parts
    > can always be written in C, after all."
    >
    > I'm a Tcl core developer (though not on the core team) and I can tell
    > you that pure-Tcl speed is of upmost importance to most developers, and
    > many man hours have gone into optimizing, benchmarking, and figuring
    > out solutions. He does the Tcl community a disservice by stating
    > we don't optimize much.
    >
    > "The second reason was the lack of a decent extension mechanism, so you
    > ended up with separate executables for expect, incr-tcl, etc."
    >
    > This has not been true for many years. Expect and Incr-Tcl work as
    > loadable extensions. An extension is loaded using dlopen()/dlsym() in
    > POSIX/Unix and LoadLibrary()/etc. in Windows. A stubs mechanism is also
    > provided to allow for backwards compatibility in C extensions for Tcl.
    >
    > Another common misconception is that Tcl doesn't support binary, which
    > also is untrue, and has been for many years. Though Larry didn't
    > specifically mention that.
    >
    > Please Larry Wall, don't misinform developers that don't know any
    > better. I would appreciate a correction.
    >
    > Thank you,
    >
    > George



    Offtopic for this group. The email you want is
    --S
     
    smallpond, Dec 10, 2007
    #2
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  3. George Peter Staplin

    mcccol Guest

    On Dec 11, 1:47 am, smallpond <> wrote:

    > Offtopic for this group. The email you want is


    It was in response to a public post regarding the current state of
    PERL, and PERL's putative comparative virtues relative to tcl.

    If the premises of the comparison are demonstrably false it's hardly
    off-topic to correct them in the context in which they were given.

    Colin.
     
    mcccol, Dec 11, 2007
    #3
  4. George Peter Staplin

    Uri Guttman Guest

    >>>>> "m" == mcccol <> writes:

    m> On Dec 11, 1:47 am, smallpond <> wrote:
    >> Offtopic for this group. The email you want is


    m> It was in response to a public post regarding the current state of
    m> PERL, and PERL's putative comparative virtues relative to tcl.

    m> If the premises of the comparison are demonstrably false it's hardly
    m> off-topic to correct them in the context in which they were given.


    it is off topic in that larry doesn't read this group and hasn't in
    years. also his state of the onion talks are very humorous and having
    seen this one, any insults of tcl have to be taken with the jokes about
    all the other scripting langs (and larry was trying to define that). so
    to the OP who is whining about larry's comments, lighten up. you should
    download the audio of the talk to really get it.

    uri

    --
    Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.stemsystems.com
    --Perl Consulting, Stem Development, Systems Architecture, Design and Coding-
    Search or Offer Perl Jobs ---------------------------- http://jobs.perl.org
     
    Uri Guttman, Dec 11, 2007
    #4
  5. On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 09:19:33 +0000 (UTC), George Peter Staplin
    <> wrote:

    >Unfortunately it seems Larry Wall is lying about several aspects of Tcl
    >in his recent article on perl.com


    I think you'll find that Larry Wall is a very fine and knowledgeable
    person, but he's not perfect. If he claimed something that turns out
    not to be true about Tcl, I could bet quite about anything that it was
    not to spread fud about it, but just due to misinformation. And he's
    shown on several occasions to be able to change his mind. You can
    write to him directly, rather than ranting here.


    Michele
    --
    {$_=pack'B8'x25,unpack'A8'x32,$a^=sub{pop^pop}->(map substr
    (($a||=join'',map--$|x$_,(unpack'w',unpack'u','G^<R<Y]*YB='
    ..'KYU;*EVH[.FHF2W+#"\Z*5TI/ER<Z`S(G.DZZ9OX0Z')=~/./g)x2,$_,
    256),7,249);s/[^\w,]/ /g;$ \=/^J/?$/:"\r";print,redo}#JAPH,
     
    Michele Dondi, Dec 11, 2007
    #5
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