internationalisation

Discussion in 'HTML' started by WindAndWaves, Nov 17, 2004.

  1. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    Hi Folks

    I recently got a couple of pages translated in a number of languages (I am
    still working on the Russian and the Korean).

    The location is www.corstorphinehouse.com ; I was wondering if anyone can
    have a look at this to see if the internationalisation is carried out
    correctly (e.g. charactersets, language settings). BTW, the Chinese is
    traditional Chinese.

    Look forward to your comments.


    - Nicolaas

    PS I know that the page is not valid html, this is to centre it on the page.
    WindAndWaves, Nov 17, 2004
    #1
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  2. WindAndWaves enlightened us with:
    > PS I know that the page is not valid html, this is to centre it on
    > the page.


    That's not an excuse. As if it's impossible to center a page with CSS.
    Tsssk...

    Sybren
    --
    The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
    capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
    safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
    Sybren Stuvel, Nov 17, 2004
    #2
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  3. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "Sybren Stuvel" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > WindAndWaves enlightened us with:
    > > PS I know that the page is not valid html, this is to centre it on
    > > the page.

    >
    > That's not an excuse. As if it's impossible to center a page with CSS.
    > Tsssk...
    >
    > Sybren
    > --
    > The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
    > capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
    > safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?


    I looked into this in minute detail. It is impossible in the way I do
    it.... However, if you know the answer then let me know and I will implement
    it straight away. I am talking about centering the content (of which we do
    not know how large it is) both vertically and horizontally. I look forward
    to your reply.

    Thank you

    -Nicolaas
    WindAndWaves, Nov 17, 2004
    #3
  4. WindAndWaves

    Kris Guest

    In article <rcOmd.3290$>,
    "WindAndWaves" <> wrote:

    > The location is www.corstorphinehouse.com ; I was wondering if anyone can
    > have a look at this to see if the internationalisation is carried out
    > correctly (e.g. charactersets, language settings). BTW, the Chinese is
    > traditional Chinese.


    The korean version displays english for me but the markup says it is
    korean (ko).

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
    Kris, Nov 17, 2004
    #4
  5. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "Kris" <> wrote in message
    news:4all.nl...

    [...]
    > The korean version displays english for me but the markup says it is
    > korean (ko).
    >
    > --
    > Kris
    > <> (nl)


    Hoi Kristiaan

    Yes, I am aware of this, sorry the Korean will be supplied later today.

    Thank you.
    WindAndWaves, Nov 17, 2004
    #5
  6. WindAndWaves enlightened us with:
    > I looked into this in minute detail. It is impossible in the way I
    > do it....


    Well, that much was clear.

    > However, if you know the answer then let me know and I will
    > implement it straight away. I am talking about centering the
    > content (of which we do not know how large it is) both vertically
    > and horizontally.


    I do know of a way to center it horizontally. You can probably use the
    same technique for vertically, but I'm not sure.

    Check out http://student.science.uva.nl/~sstuvel/centered.html

    Sybren
    --
    The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
    capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
    safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
    Sybren Stuvel, Nov 17, 2004
    #6
  7. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "Sybren Stuvel" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    [...]

    > I do know of a way to center it horizontally. You can probably use the
    > same technique for vertically, but I'm not sure.
    >

    [...]

    Ja lieve Sybren....

    And that is where the problem lies. Almost all of us know how to center a
    page horizontally (e.g. <DIV ALIGN=CENTER>), but vertically is a little
    trickier. I have actually seen it done with stylesheets, but you end up
    making it so complicated that it does not warrant all the extra hassle while
    a simple table with HEIGHT="100%" WIDTH="100%" does the trick, nevermind the
    tick from W3.
    WindAndWaves, Nov 17, 2004
    #7
  8. WindAndWaves

    rf Guest

    WindAndWaves wrote:

    > www.corstorphinehouse.com


    > BTW, the Chinese is
    > traditional Chinese.


    Just how do I get to the chinese version? You give me no textual clues at
    all, just a row of flags which are too small to actually see, for instance
    is the first one Australia or New Zealand?

    And what about an American person. Do you think they would click on a New
    Zealand flag to view their version of English? :)

    Question: Does Thailand use the same flag as Hong Kong? The also use
    traditional chinese. Mainland China, by the way, uses simplified chinese.

    Navigation by flags is a very poor thing to do.

    Also, your title attribute is missing for those pictures on the front page.
    The later pages have them.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Nov 17, 2004
    #8
  9. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    news:TsRmd.39723$...
    > WindAndWaves wrote:
    >
    > > www.corstorphinehouse.com

    >
    > > BTW, the Chinese is
    > > traditional Chinese.

    >
    > Just how do I get to the chinese version? You give me no textual clues at
    > all, just a row of flags which are too small to actually see, for instance
    > is the first one Australia or New Zealand?
    >
    > And what about an American person. Do you think they would click on a New
    > Zealand flag to view their version of English? :)
    >
    > Question: Does Thailand use the same flag as Hong Kong? The also use
    > traditional chinese. Mainland China, by the way, uses simplified chinese.
    >
    > Navigation by flags is a very poor thing to do.
    >
    > Also, your title attribute is missing for those pictures on the front

    page.
    > The later pages have them.




    Hi Richard

    Thank you for your comments, the flags seemed a good idea at the time,
    because they are universally understood and they fit with a hotel (i.e.
    hotels often have flags from different countries outside to welcome their
    guests).
    WindAndWaves, Nov 18, 2004
    #9
  10. WindAndWaves

    rf Guest

    WindAndWaves wrote:

    > Hi Richard
    >
    > Thank you for your comments, the flags seemed a good idea at the time,
    > because they are universally understood and they fit with a hotel (i.e.
    > hotels often have flags from different countries outside to welcome their
    > guests).


    Check the google archive for discussions on flags and navigation. Invariably
    using flags alone is frowned upon.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Nov 18, 2004
    #10
  11. WindAndWaves

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Previously in alt.html, WindAndWaves <> said:

    > Thank you for your comments, the flags seemed a good idea at the time,
    > because they are universally understood and they fit with a hotel (i.e.


    As Richard's post demonstrated, they are easily misunderstood, or just
    plain confusing.

    > hotels often have flags from different countries outside to welcome their
    > guests).


    But not to indicate which language their guests can speak! If you want
    an image of various flags to link to the hotel thing, then go ahead, but
    don't try and use it to link to different translations of the site.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004
    Mark Parnell, Nov 18, 2004
    #11
  12. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:feytjwyvl2df.1wl9h9plyjvbz$...
    > Previously in alt.html, WindAndWaves <> said:
    >
    > > Thank you for your comments, the flags seemed a good idea at the time,
    > > because they are universally understood and they fit with a hotel (i.e.

    >
    > As Richard's post demonstrated, they are easily misunderstood, or just
    > plain confusing.
    >
    > > hotels often have flags from different countries outside to welcome

    their
    > > guests).

    >
    > But not to indicate which language their guests can speak! If you want
    > an image of various flags to link to the hotel thing, then go ahead, but
    > don't try and use it to link to different translations of the site.
    >
    > --
    > Mark Parnell
    > http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    > "Never drink rum&coke whilst reading usenet" - rf 2004



    All of that flag business is interesting, but that is not actually what I am
    interested in. I thought about it again and even though you are correct in
    saying that flags are not correct (and I will probably change them to text
    at some stage) and what have you, I think they are fun (does that count) and
    friendly. I mean, we are not talking about a government page on euthanasia
    here. Furthermore, it is not a complete translation of the site, just the
    front page in a couple of languages. What I am interested though, however,
    if the pages are setup correctly for the different languages.

    TIA

    - Nicolaas
    WindAndWaves, Nov 18, 2004
    #12
  13. WindAndWaves

    Philip Ronan Guest

    WindAndWaves wrote:

    > All of that flag business is interesting, but that is not actually what I am
    > interested in. I thought about it again and even though you are correct in
    > saying that flags are not correct (and I will probably change them to text
    > at some stage) and what have you, I think they are fun (does that count) and
    > friendly. I mean, we are not talking about a government page on euthanasia
    > here. Furthermore, it is not a complete translation of the site, just the
    > front page in a couple of languages. What I am interested though, however,
    > if the pages are setup correctly for the different languages.
    >
    > TIA
    >
    > - Nicolaas


    I agree with everyone else that flags are not a good way of indicating
    languages.

    The Japanese page looks ok, but you forgot to translate the status bar test
    that appears when the mouse is over the images at the bottom. (Actually this
    is another bad idea -- "title" attributes do a much better job and don't
    rely on Javascript)

    You said earlier that the flags seemed like a good idea at the time. Since
    you're using an Apache server, it would be a *much* better idea to use
    content negotiation. That way you can provide your visitors with their
    preferred language automatically without resorting to any of this
    flag-vs.-language malarkey.

    More info here: <http://httpd.apache.org/docs/content-negotiation.html>

    Phil

    --
    Philip Ronan

    (Please remove the "z"s if replying by email)
    Philip Ronan, Nov 18, 2004
    #13
  14. WindAndWaves

    Peter Guest

    WindAndWaves schreef:

    >Hi Folks
    >
    >I recently got a couple of pages translated in a number of languages (I am
    >still working on the Russian and the Korean).
    >
    >The location is www.corstorphinehouse.com ; I was wondering if anyone can
    >have a look at this to see if the internationalisation is carried out
    >correctly (e.g. charactersets, language settings). BTW, the Chinese is
    >traditional Chinese.
    >
    >Look forward to your comments.
    >
    >
    >- Nicolaas
    >
    >PS I know that the page is not valid html, this is to centre it on the page.
    >
    >
    >
    >

    This dutch translation tells people nothing: Het landgoed
    <http://www.corstorphinehouse.com/garden0.html> is in de overgangsfase
    naar de Demeter status in biologische landbouw.
    Peter
    Peter, Nov 18, 2004
    #14
  15. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:419c9b78$0$46374$...
    > WindAndWaves schreef:
    >
    > >Hi Folks
    > >
    > >I recently got a couple of pages translated in a number of languages (I

    am
    > >still working on the Russian and the Korean).
    > >
    > >The location is www.corstorphinehouse.com ; I was wondering if anyone can
    > >have a look at this to see if the internationalisation is carried out
    > >correctly (e.g. charactersets, language settings). BTW, the Chinese is
    > >traditional Chinese.
    > >
    > >Look forward to your comments.
    > >
    > >
    > >- Nicolaas
    > >
    > >PS I know that the page is not valid html, this is to centre it on the

    page.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >

    > This dutch translation tells people nothing: Het landgoed
    > <http://www.corstorphinehouse.com/garden0.html> is in de overgangsfase
    > naar de Demeter status in biologische landbouw.
    > Peter


    What do you mean peter? I know the text in very short, it is just a start.
    100 words max.
    WindAndWaves, Nov 18, 2004
    #15
  16. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "Philip Ronan" <> wrote in message
    news:BDC23EE8.25B90%...
    > WindAndWaves wrote:
    >
    > > All of that flag business is interesting, but that is not actually what

    I am
    > > interested in. I thought about it again and even though you are correct

    in
    > > saying that flags are not correct (and I will probably change them to

    text
    > > at some stage) and what have you, I think they are fun (does that count)

    and
    > > friendly. I mean, we are not talking about a government page on

    euthanasia
    > > here. Furthermore, it is not a complete translation of the site, just

    the
    > > front page in a couple of languages. What I am interested though,

    however,
    > > if the pages are setup correctly for the different languages.
    > >
    > > TIA
    > >
    > > - Nicolaas

    >
    > I agree with everyone else that flags are not a good way of indicating
    > languages.
    >
    > The Japanese page looks ok, but you forgot to translate the status bar

    test
    > that appears when the mouse is over the images at the bottom. (Actually

    this
    > is another bad idea -- "title" attributes do a much better job and don't
    > rely on Javascript)
    >
    > You said earlier that the flags seemed like a good idea at the time. Since
    > you're using an Apache server, it would be a *much* better idea to use
    > content negotiation. That way you can provide your visitors with their
    > preferred language automatically without resorting to any of this
    > flag-vs.-language malarkey.
    >
    > More info here: <http://httpd.apache.org/docs/content-negotiation.html>
    >
    > Phil
    >
    > --
    > Philip Ronan
    >
    > (Please remove the "z"s if replying by email)
    >
    >


    Hi Phil

    Thank for your comment. Does this mean that if I have my browser set to
    Italian that I then automatically get the Italian?

    That would be a good idea, but I am sure that most of the folk who visit the
    website have such strange setups that it may not work
    (e.g. the Dutch travel agent may prefer English - A chinese Kiwi may like to
    have a look at the Chinese). Just to reiterate, it is not about translating
    the whole site for people who do not speak English, it is about impressing
    and welcoming guests in their own language. Hmmmm, maybe it is a good idea,
    it is difficult to setup?

    Thank you

    Nicolaas
    WindAndWaves, Nov 18, 2004
    #16
  17. WindAndWaves

    jake Guest

    In message <oASmd.3389$>, WindAndWaves
    <> writes
    >
    >"rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    >news:TsRmd.39723$...
    >> WindAndWaves wrote:
    >>
    >> > www.corstorphinehouse.com

    >>
    >> > BTW, the Chinese is
    >> > traditional Chinese.

    >>
    >> Just how do I get to the chinese version? You give me no textual clues at
    >> all, just a row of flags which are too small to actually see, for instance
    >> is the first one Australia or New Zealand?
    >>
    >> And what about an American person. Do you think they would click on a New
    >> Zealand flag to view their version of English? :)
    >>
    >> Question: Does Thailand use the same flag as Hong Kong? The also use
    >> traditional chinese. Mainland China, by the way, uses simplified chinese.
    >>
    >> Navigation by flags is a very poor thing to do.
    >>
    >> Also, your title attribute is missing for those pictures on the front

    >page.
    >> The later pages have them.

    >
    >
    >
    >Hi Richard
    >
    >Thank you for your comments, the flags seemed a good idea at the time,
    >because they are universally understood and they fit with a hotel (i.e.
    >hotels often have flags from different countries outside to welcome their
    >guests).
    >
    >


    Actually, I think the use of the flags ought to work quite well --
    although you might want to add a title="xxx" to each of the image tags
    as well as a alt=xxx" in order to let browsers other than IE show a
    tool-tip in the appropriate language. Looks attractive, too ;-)

    regards.

    --
    Jake
    jake, Nov 19, 2004
    #17
  18. WindAndWaves

    WindAndWaves Guest

    "jake" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In message <oASmd.3389$>, WindAndWaves
    > <> writes
    > >
    > >"rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    > >news:TsRmd.39723$...
    > >> WindAndWaves wrote:
    > >>
    > >> > www.corstorphinehouse.com
    > >>
    > >> > BTW, the Chinese is
    > >> > traditional Chinese.
    > >>
    > >> Just how do I get to the chinese version? You give me no textual clues

    at
    > >> all, just a row of flags which are too small to actually see, for

    instance
    > >> is the first one Australia or New Zealand?
    > >>
    > >> And what about an American person. Do you think they would click on a

    New
    > >> Zealand flag to view their version of English? :)
    > >>
    > >> Question: Does Thailand use the same flag as Hong Kong? The also use
    > >> traditional chinese. Mainland China, by the way, uses simplified

    chinese.
    > >>
    > >> Navigation by flags is a very poor thing to do.
    > >>
    > >> Also, your title attribute is missing for those pictures on the front

    > >page.
    > >> The later pages have them.

    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >Hi Richard
    > >
    > >Thank you for your comments, the flags seemed a good idea at the time,
    > >because they are universally understood and they fit with a hotel (i.e.
    > >hotels often have flags from different countries outside to welcome their
    > >guests).
    > >
    > >

    >
    > Actually, I think the use of the flags ought to work quite well --
    > although you might want to add a title="xxx" to each of the image tags
    > as well as a alt=xxx" in order to let browsers other than IE show a
    > tool-tip in the appropriate language. Looks attractive, too ;-)
    >
    > regards.
    >
    > --
    > Jake
    >


    Thank you Jake - unfortunately, we got a bit of topic, as I was actually
    interested in internationalisation (charactersets, encoding, language specs,
    etc...) nevermind, you are absolutely right about the alt and titles.
    WindAndWaves, Nov 19, 2004
    #18
  19. Dans un message précédent, WindAndWaves <> a écrit:
    > Look forward to your comments.


    The French translation is not right!


    ---
    Ce courriel est exempt de virus.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.796 / Virus Database: 540 - Release Date: 2004-11-18
    Pascal Bouchard, Nov 20, 2004
    #19
  20. WindAndWaves

    neredbojias Guest

    Without quill or qualm, Pascal Bouchard quothed:

    > Dans un message précédent, WindAndWaves <> a écrit:
    > > Look forward to your comments.

    >
    > The French translation is not right!


    Vous etes un largesse fussbudgeter.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
    neredbojias, Nov 21, 2004
    #20
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