Internet Explorer 8 first 2 bugs

Discussion in 'HTML' started by GTalbot, Feb 9, 2008.

  1. GTalbot

    GTalbot Guest

    [Followup-to set to alt.html]

    Hello all,

    Yesterday, I reported a crash bug (credits must go to Alan Gresley,
    Antonio Bueno and Brett Merkey for discovering, reporting and figuring
    out this bug) to Microsoft people. Later that same day, I got emails
    from Microsoft and a few visits from an user agent with the "MSIE 8"
    string. I double-checked carefully (Reverse DNS lookup and complete
    WHOIS lookup) and I can say with absolute certainty that it was
    Microsoft people in Redmond following up on that crash in IE 7
    (involving button[value="x"]). In fact, I've got over 400 hits since
    January 15th 2008 from such user agent, always with the same first 7
    digits as IP addresses. I also checked with some trustworthy people
    (at webstandards.org and with D. Massy); the machines used to visit my
    IE 7 browser bugs webpage were also very well equiped (SLCC1, .NET
    3.5, Origami Experience 2, Windows Vista 64 bits), high-powered ones.

    So, even though Internet Explorer 8 is still in alpha or pre-beta
    state and not available to the public, I can say with certainty that
    IE 8 still has not fixed 2 bugs related to favicon.ico

    105 Bugs in Internet Explorer 7 for Windows
    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug105

    Bugs in Internet Explorer 8 for Windows
    http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/

    Regards, Gérard

    [Followup-to set to alt.html]
    GTalbot, Feb 9, 2008
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. GTalbot

    cwdjrxyz Guest

    On Feb 9, 3:34 pm, GTalbot <> wrote:
    > [Followup-to set to alt.html]
    >
    > Hello all,
    >
    > Yesterday, I reported a crash bug (credits must go to Alan Gresley,
    > Antonio Bueno and Brett Merkey for discovering, reporting and figuring
    > out this bug) to Microsoft people. Later that same day, I got emails
    > from Microsoft and a few visits from an user agent with the "MSIE 8"
    > string. I double-checked carefully (Reverse DNS lookup and complete
    > WHOIS lookup) and I can say with absolute certainty that it was
    > Microsoft people in Redmond following up on that crash in IE 7
    > (involving button[value="x"]). In fact, I've got over 400 hits since
    > January 15th 2008 from such user agent, always with the same first 7
    > digits as IP addresses. I also checked with some trustworthy people
    > (at webstandards.org and with D. Massy); the machines used to visit my
    > IE 7 browser bugs webpage were also very well equiped (SLCC1, .NET
    > 3.5, Origami Experience 2, Windows Vista 64 bits), high-powered ones.
    >
    > So, even though Internet Explorer 8 is still in alpha or pre-beta
    > state and not available to the public, I can say with certainty that
    > IE 8 still has not fixed 2 bugs related to favicon.ico
    >
    > 105 Bugs in Internet Explorer 7 for Windowshttp://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug105
    >
    > Bugs in Internet Explorer 8 for Windowshttp://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/


    To me the main question is if IE8 will support application/xhtml+xml
    at least semi-properly. If not, nothing else matters much - IE is
    still hopelessly outdated. Nearly all browsers with much general web
    usage have been able to support application/xhtml+xml for quite a
    while now, although there are a few bugs for some of them that usually
    can be worked around or avoided. It seems that all new browsers should
    support everything from W3C html 3.2 through xhtml 1.1 well at the
    very least. If Microsoft does not have the talent to do this, they do
    have plenty of money as evidenced by the huge amount they are offering
    in an attempt to get Yahoo. They could easily hire Opera or the
    Mozilla project to write a decent browser for them. or even hire some
    programmers away from these organizations to head the Microsoft
    browser development. However, I suspect the difference here is that
    management at the highest levels in Microsoft thinks they can gain
    more control of the ad market by spending a fortune to buy Yahoo, but
    are misers when it comes to in house browser development - why should
    we spend much, or anything, on browser development when IE browsers
    are the most used and browsers do not make money for us type of
    attitude.
    cwdjrxyz, Feb 10, 2008
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. GTalbot

    Chaddy2222 Guest

    On Feb 10, 4:04 pm, cwdjrxyz <> wrote:
    > On Feb 9, 3:34 pm, GTalbot <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > [Followup-to set to alt.html]

    >
    > > Hello all,

    >
    > > Yesterday, I reported a crash bug (credits must go to Alan Gresley,
    > > Antonio Bueno and Brett Merkey for discovering, reporting and figuring
    > > out this bug) to Microsoft people. Later that same day, I got emails
    > > from Microsoft and a few visits from an user agent with the "MSIE 8"
    > > string. I double-checked carefully (Reverse DNS lookup and complete
    > > WHOIS lookup) and I can say with absolute certainty that it was
    > > Microsoft people in Redmond following up on that crash in IE 7
    > > (involving button[value="x"]). In fact, I've got over 400 hits since
    > > January 15th 2008 from such user agent, always with the same first 7
    > > digits as IP addresses. I also checked with some trustworthy people
    > > (at webstandards.org and with D. Massy); the machines used to visit my
    > > IE 7 browser bugs webpage were also very well equiped (SLCC1, .NET
    > > 3.5, Origami Experience 2, Windows Vista 64 bits), high-powered ones.

    >
    > > So, even though Internet Explorer 8 is still in alpha or pre-beta
    > > state and not available to the public, I can say with certainty that
    > > IE 8 still has not fixed 2 bugs related to favicon.ico

    >
    > > 105 Bugs in Internet Explorer 7 for Windowshttp://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug105

    >
    > > Bugs in Internet Explorer 8 for Windowshttp://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/

    >
    > To me the main question is if IE8 will support application/xhtml+xml
    > at least semi-properly. If not, nothing else matters much - IE is
    > still hopelessly outdated. Nearly all browsers with much general web
    > usage have been able to support application/xhtml+xml for quite a
    > while now, although there are a few bugs for some of them that usually
    > can be worked around or avoided. It seems that all new browsers should
    > support everything  from W3C html 3.2 through xhtml 1.1 well at the
    > very least. If Microsoft does not have the talent to do this, they do
    > have plenty of money as evidenced by the huge amount they are offering
    > in an attempt to get Yahoo. They could easily hire Opera or the
    > Mozilla project to write a decent browser for them. or even hire some
    > programmers away from these organizations to head the Microsoft
    > browser development. However, I suspect the difference here is that
    > management at the highest levels in Microsoft thinks they can gain
    > more control of the ad market by spending a fortune to buy Yahoo, but
    > are misers when it comes to in house browser development - why should
    > we spend much, or anything, on browser development when IE browsers
    > are the most used and browsers do not make money for us type of
    > attitude.

    Well lets face it.
    XHTML is not really very benificial for most web pages anyway.
    Also the W3C from what I know are not going to do any more work on
    XHTML they are working on HTML 5 instead.
    --
    Regards Chad. http://freewebdesignonline.org
    Chaddy2222, Feb 10, 2008
    #3
  4. Chaddy2222 wrote:

    > Also the W3C from what I know are not going to do any more work on XHTML
    > they are working on HTML 5 instead.


    That is not the case -- although the W3C has now blessed HTML 5, work on
    XHTML 2.0 proceeds as planned. Whatsmore, HTML 5 itself does define both
    an "HTML syntax" and "XHTML syntax".

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    [Geek of HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python/Apache/Linux]
    [OS: Linux 2.6.17.14-mm-desktop-9mdvsmp, up 12 days, 15:43.]
    Toby A Inkster, Feb 11, 2008
    #4
  5. GTalbot

    Dylan Parry Guest

    GTalbot wrote:

    > So, even though Internet Explorer 8 is still in alpha or pre-beta
    > state and not available to the public, I can say with certainty that
    > IE 8 still has not fixed 2 bugs related to favicon.ico


    No you can't. You can't even say that there are bugs in browser that
    visited your site and claimed to be IE8 as you cannot prove that a bug
    exists if you can't even see the software that has the supposed bug.

    Even if it were IE8, as you say it's in *alpha*, so there are bound to
    be bugs. That's the whole purpose of the alpha stage.


    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

    The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
    those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.
    Dylan Parry, Feb 11, 2008
    #5
  6. GTalbot

    Alan Gresley Guest

    Dylan Parry wrote:
    > GTalbot wrote:
    > > So, even though Internet Explorer 8 is still in alpha or pre-beta
    > > state and not available to the public, I can say with certainty that
    > > IE 8 still has not fixed 2 bugs related to favicon.ico

    >
    > No you can't. You can't even say that there are bugs in browser that
    > visited your site and claimed to be IE8 as you cannot prove that a bug
    > exists if you can't even see the software that has the supposed bug.

    [...]
    > Dylan Parryhttp://electricfreedom.org|http://webpageworkshop.co.uk


    Yes you can. A log file is a log file. The only thing that needs to be
    proved is if the UA was IE8. I have had visits from IE8 on my site.
    One IP addressed used and when checked give this information.

    IP address: 131.107.0.102
    Host name: tide532.microsoft.com
    Country: UNITED STATES

    Location of IP address 131.107.0.102:
    Redmond, WA in UNITED STATES (US).

    My log file has:

    131.107.0.102 - - [31/Jan/2008:16:23:11 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/ HTTP/1.1" 200 1767 "http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/
    MSIE7Bugs/" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0;
    SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506)"

    131.107.0.102 - - [31/Jan/2008:16:23:12 -0700] "GET css-class.com/
    favicon.ico HTTP/1.1" 200 1406 "-" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0;
    Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET
    CLR 3.0.04506)"

    http://css-class.com/test/bugs/ie/

    This directory shows just a list of files. There is no index page here
    but IE8 is indeed requesting the favicon icon.

    What UA anyway claims to be IE8 and request favicon icons? I would
    find it bazaar to suggest that someone is spoofing IE8 for fun.

    The first page visited showing the logs:

    131.107.0.102 - - [31/Jan/2008:16:23:13 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/body-width.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 1048 "http://css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0;
    SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506)"
    131.107.0.102 - - [31/Jan/2008:16:23:18 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/body-width.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 1048 "http://css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0;
    SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506)"
    131.107.0.102 - - [31/Jan/2008:16:23:23 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/body-width.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 1048 "http://css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0;
    SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506)"
    131.107.0.102 - - [31/Jan/2008:16:23:25 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/body-width.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 1048 "http://css-class.com/test/
    bugs/ie/" "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 6.0;
    SLCC1; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; Media Center PC 5.0; .NET CLR 3.0.04506)"

    http://css-class.com/test/bugs/ie/body-width.htm

    If a UA passes the test on this page. The page does not have to be
    refreshed three times.

    Another log:

    131.107.0.102 - - [23/Jan/2008:10:58:31 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; WOW64; SLCC1; .NET
    CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2; .NET
    CLR 3.5.21022)"
    131.107.0.75 - - [23/Jan/2008:10:59:24 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.2; .NET CLR
    1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
    131.107.0.104 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:01:05 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9b2) Gecko/
    2007121120 Firefox/3.0b2"
    131.107.0.102 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:01:38 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U;
    Windows NT 6.0; en-US) AppleWebKit/523.15 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/
    3.0 Safari/523.15"
    131.107.0.104 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:01:50 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm" "Opera/9.25 (Windows NT 6.0;
    U; en)"
    131.107.0.104 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:04:35 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-" "Opera/
    9.25 (Windows NT 6.0; U; en)"
    131.107.0.104 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:04:35 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm" "Opera/9.25 (Windows NT 6.0;
    U; en)"
    131.107.0.75 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:17:43 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-" "Opera/
    9.50 (Windows NT 5.1; U; en)"
    131.107.0.75 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:17:43 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm" "Opera/9.50 (Windows NT 5.1;
    U; en)"
    131.107.0.101 - - [23/Jan/2008:20:06:34 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR
    2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2)"
    131.107.0.101 - - [23/Jan/2008:20:33:41 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; SLCC1; .NET CLR
    2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2)"
    131.107.0.102 - - [23/Jan/2008:20:49:47 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.2; .NET CLR
    1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; MS-RTC LM 8; .NET
    CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; InfoPath.2)"

    From the way this page was visited it would indicate that IE8 has the
    same bug as IE7. There even time there (13 minutes and almost 3 hours
    gaps) to have a coffee and discuss the implications before moving onto
    another machine to test further. The last log has "MS-RTC LM 8." Is
    that IE8 in IE7 mode?

    Strange that that page was visited the same day that I wrote a private
    email to a IE team member suggesting that they may want to test IE8
    with this page.

    I know of other ways to test IE8 and all by the evidence that I will
    get in my log files. It would be so much easier if the IE team and the
    development community wasn't playing the game and just worked
    together.

    Alan Gresley
    Alan Gresley, Feb 11, 2008
    #6
  7. GTalbot

    GTalbot Guest

    On 11 fév, 05:24, Dylan Parry <> wrote:
    > GTalbot wrote:
    > > So, even though Internet Explorer 8 is still in alpha or pre-beta
    > > state and not available to the public, I can say with certainty that
    > > IE 8 still has not fixed 2 bugs related to favicon.ico

    >
    > No you can't. You can't even say that there are bugs in browser that
    > visited your site


    Dylan,

    Requesting /favicon.ico automatically is one bug that web developers,
    web authors have been requesting to be fixed as soon as 1997.
    Another one is that requesting a file regarding a specific or
    restrained location on the server goes against the architecture of the
    web. Where is the website icon is a question, an issue that should
    fall entirely under the responsibility of the owner/publisher of the
    domain name, not Microsoft's decision.
    So, the browser which visited my site on February 8th 2008 at 16:12:27
    had both bugs.

    I did a Reverse DNS lookup and a complete WHOIS lookup and that
    browser originated from Microsoft's labs.

    Furthermore, only 2 people (besides Microsoft people) knew that I
    contacted Microsoft to report that serious crash. So, I add up
    everything (notwithstanding all of the previous visits from the same
    domain and other info) and I claim certainty regarding the identity of
    that browser.

    Regards, Gérard
    GTalbot, Feb 12, 2008
    #7
  8. GTalbot

    GTalbot Guest

    On 11 fév, 10:38, Alan Gresley <> wrote:


    > Another log:
    >
    > 131.107.0.102 - - [23/Jan/2008:10:58:31 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    > css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    > "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 6.0; WOW64; SLCC1; .NET
    > CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; InfoPath.2; .NET
    > CLR 3.5.21022)"
    > 131.107.0.75 - - [23/Jan/2008:10:59:24 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    > css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    > "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 8.0; Windows NT 5.2; .NET CLR
    > 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727)"
    > 131.107.0.104 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:01:05 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    > css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    > "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-US; rv:1.9b2) Gecko/
    > 2007121120 Firefox/3.0b2"
    > 131.107.0.102 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:01:38 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    > css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm" "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U;
    > Windows NT 6.0; en-US) AppleWebKit/523.15 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/
    > 3.0 Safari/523.15"
    > 131.107.0.104 - - [23/Jan/2008:11:01:50 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    > css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm" "Opera/9.25 (Windows NT 6.0;
    > U; en)"


    (...)

    Yep! I had visits like that. As if they were comparing rendering and
    discussing or something.

    > 131.107.0.102 - - [23/Jan/2008:20:49:47 -0700] "GET css-class.com/test/
    > css/selectors/ie7hacktargetingopera.htm HTTP/1.1" 200 3647 "-"
    > "Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.2; .NET CLR
    > 1.1.4322; .NET CLR 2.0.50727; .NET CLR 3.0.04506.30; MS-RTC LM 8; .NET
    > CLR 3.0.04506.648; .NET CLR 3.5.21022; InfoPath.2)"
    >
    > From the way this page was visited it would indicate that IE8 has the
    > same bug as IE7. There even time there (13 minutes and almost 3 hours
    > gaps) to have a coffee and discuss the implications before moving onto
    > another machine to test further. The last log has "MS-RTC LM 8." Is
    > that IE8 in IE7 mode?


    Good question...

    > Strange that that page was visited the same day that I wrote a private
    > email to a IE team member suggesting that they may want to test IE8
    > with this page.



    Exactly. Why would it be unreasonable to expect to get visits with/
    from an IE8 browser on the very same day you report a serious bug in
    IE 7 if you email Microsoft's IE team?

    Best regards, Gérard
    GTalbot, Feb 12, 2008
    #8
  9. GTalbot

    Dylan Parry Guest

    GTalbot wrote:

    > Requesting /favicon.ico automatically is one bug that web developers,
    > web authors have been requesting to be fixed as soon as 1997


    Ah right, I didn't realise that. Possibly because I neither use IE, nor
    pay any attention to my logs ;)

    --
    Dylan Parry
    http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

    The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
    those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.
    Dylan Parry, Feb 12, 2008
    #9
  10. On Feb 12, 3:06 am, GTalbot <> wrote:
    > Furthermore, only 2 people (besides Microsoft people) knew that I
    > contacted Microsoft to report that serious crash. So, I add up
    > everything (notwithstanding all of the previous visits from the same
    > domain and other info) and I claim certainty regarding the identity of
    > that browser.


    Are you not worried that Microsoft will have to "disappear" since you
    found (and are spreading rumors) about their browser. You are walking
    on thin ice there my man.

    Maybe it is a conspiracy?

    On a serious note, I am pretty sure Microsoft doesn't give a shit
    about you or your site, and I am also pretty sure you did not find
    something they did not already know about.
    Travis Newbury, Feb 12, 2008
    #10
  11. GTalbot

    Alan Gresley Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote in reply to GTalbot:

    > Are you not worried that Microsoft will have to "disappear" since you
    > found (and are spreading rumors) about their browser. You are walking
    > on thin ice there my man.


    Travis, are you a web developer? If you are, aren't you the lease bit
    concern that Microsoft is playing their same old game of secrecy.
    Wouldn't it be nice if the IE team could work together with the web
    development community to make IE8 a better browser. I don't care
    whatever bugs IE8 has since all browsers with new layout engines will
    have bugs. If I go to this address.

    https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/

    I can find many 1000s of bugs. The reporting of IE8 requesting non
    existing favicons is not "spreading rumors," it is stating a fact
    about what the current IE8 alpha/beta does. So as some of us walk on
    thin ice, Microsoft is still play their game of secrecy. Is this
    something that you alway want to happen?


    > Maybe it is a conspiracy?



    Yes and it is working and making people like you play their merry
    game.


    > On a serious note, I am pretty sure Microsoft doesn't give a shit
    > about you or your site, and I am also pretty sure you did not find
    > something they did not already know about.



    Can you prove that? Facts please? By that statement it appears that
    you are just blindly walking in the dark. Another list of bugs that I
    sent to a IE team member was greeted with great enthusiasm. The person
    thanked me and said please forward further bugs to them and another
    team member. I know things about IE8 which no one outside of the
    Microsoft knows and in respect from certain people this information
    will remains unknown at this point in time if not forever.

    So Travis, instead of saying "Microsoft doesn't give a sh*t about you
    or your site," please tell me what is really bothering you?. You whole
    reply to Gérard is just a slag off and an insult. I know which of you
    two already that I have more respect for. Can you offer something
    constructive to this discussion?

    Alan Gresley
    Alan Gresley, Feb 12, 2008
    #11
  12. On Feb 12, 7:28 am, Alan Gresley <> wrote:
    > Travis, are you a web developer? If you are, aren't you the lease bit
    > concern that Microsoft is playing their same old game of secrecy.
    > Wouldn't it be nice if the IE team could work together with the web
    > development community to make IE8 a better browser. I don't care
    > whatever bugs IE8 has since all browsers with new layout engines will
    > have bugs.


    I do not consider myself a web developer, but more a web applications
    specialist (cool title I just though up). And no I am not concerned
    with what Microsoft does. They can be as secretive as they like.
    they can make their browser anyway they like, this is a free market.
    If they do things that the population doesn't like, then the
    population will move away from their products.

    I completely believe in letting the free market system work.
    Microsoft (or any other company) is more than welcome to do what ever
    they like. The users will be the ultimate judge on if it is right or
    not.


    > I can find many 1000s of bugs. The reporting of IE8 requesting non
    > existing favicons is not "spreading rumors,"


    Did you read the line where I said "Now on a serious note"? That
    implied that I was not being serious with the statement above.

    > about what the current IE8 alpha/beta does. So as some of us walk on
    > thin ice, Microsoft is still play their game of secrecy. Is this
    > something that you alway want to happen?


    It doesn't matter to me how Microsoft manages their business or
    products. Other than their operating system I don't use any Microsoft
    products.


    > > Maybe it is a conspiracy?

    > Yes and it is working and making people like you play their merry
    > game.


    Maybe you completely missed the point of my post. (actually it is
    obvious you missed the point)

    > So Travis, instead of saying "Microsoft doesn't give a sh*t about you
    > or your site," please tell me what is really bothering you?.


    Nothing bothers me. Don't you get it? I care about microsoft as much
    as they care about me or you.
    Travis Newbury, Feb 12, 2008
    #12
  13. GTalbot

    Alan Gresley Guest

    Travis Newbury wrote:

    > I do not consider myself a web developer, but more a web applications
    > specialist (cool title I just though up). And no I am not concerned
    > with what Microsoft does. They can be as secretive as they like.
    > they can make their browser anyway they like, this is a free market.
    > If they do things that the population doesn't like, then the
    > population will move away from their products.



    The general population are just ignorant of browsers, which is OK. The
    world full of web developers/designers who applaud browsers like FF
    and Safari. One reason is that their engines are built in an open
    development community. The Europeon Union is described as a free
    market. The countries in the EU do not compete against each other but
    work together. What is the "this" you are referring to where you say
    "this is a free market." I do care about or am concerned byt the
    practices of Enterprise, Government, etc, etc. I don't believe there
    should be monopolies and there is one monopoly which is holding back
    the open web. Is that how you would want your government of your
    country to work?


    > > I can find many 1000s of bugs. The reporting of IE8 requesting non
    > > existing favicons is not "spreading rumors,"

    >
    > Did you read the line where I said "Now on a serious note"? That
    > implied that I was not being serious with the statement above.



    By your whole contribution to this thread, I don't know when your
    being serious, giving ridicule, basing an opinion on informed facts or
    not or just being plain ignorant.


    > > > Maybe it is a conspiracy?

    > > Yes and it is working and making people like you play their merry
    > > game.

    >
    > Maybe you completely missed the point of my post. (actually it is
    > obvious you missed the point)



    No I have not missed your point. I ask you directory what is really
    bothering you because it seems that your initial contribution to this
    thread was to just put down Gérard Talbot and his efforts. This is one
    question which I would expected to have been answered.


    > > So Travis, instead of saying "Microsoft doesn't give a sh*t about you
    > > or your site," please tell me what is really bothering you?.

    >
    > Nothing bothers me. Don't you get it? I care about microsoft as much
    > as they care about me or you.



    So if you don't give a dam about Microsoft, why are you even
    commenting in this thread? Please go and dump on some other thread
    elsewhere.
    Alan Gresley, Feb 12, 2008
    #13
  14. On Feb 12, 1:10 pm, Alan Gresley <> wrote:
    > > > So Travis, instead of saying "Microsoft doesn't give a sh*t about you
    > > > or your site," please tell me what is really bothering you?.

    >
    > > Nothing bothers me. Don't you get it? I care about microsoft as much
    > > as they care about me or you.

    >
    > So if you don't give a dam about Microsoft, why are you even
    > commenting in this thread? Please go and dump on some other thread
    > elsewhere.


    This thread is not Microsoft is it?
    Travis Newbury, Feb 12, 2008
    #14
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