IronPython-0.6 is now available!

Discussion in 'Python' started by Neuruss, Jul 28, 2004.

  1. Neuruss

    Neuruss Guest

    IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
    experimentation but not for serious development work.

    http://www.ironpython.com
     
    Neuruss, Jul 28, 2004
    #1
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  2. Neuruss

    Ivan Voras Guest

    Neuruss wrote:

    > IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
    > experimentation but not for serious development work.
    >
    > http://www.ironpython.com


    This is great news! It could be an answer to those who need 'compiled'
    python[*]. And cross-platform too![**]

    [*] Yes, there's py2exe, and .net means IL, but it's an .exe!
    [**] .net for windows, mono for unix systems :)

    Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it comming
    from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now ("Programming C#"),
    and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a very productive
    language, and speedy also.

    --
    What part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nath Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't
    you understand?
     
    Ivan Voras, Jul 29, 2004
    #2
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  3. Neuruss

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)

    Ivan Voras wrote:

    > Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it comming
    > from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now ("Programming C#"),
    > and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a very productive
    > language, and speedy also.


    In what way do you feel C# is significantly different than Java?

    As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
    advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
    feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
    a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
    cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?

    -Peter
     
    Peter Hansen, Jul 29, 2004
    #3
  4. On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 01:27:28 +0200, Ivan Voras <ivoras@__geri.cc.fer.hr> wrote:
    >
    > Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it comming
    > from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now ("Programming C#"),
    > and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a very productive
    > language, and speedy also.


    This isn't entirely unlikely. Microsoft actually involved a number of
    non-Microsoft experts in the field of language and "virtual machine"
    design in the development of some of the .NET technologies, such as
    the CLR.

    I haven't yet found the time to look at any of this stuff in detail,
    but I will, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that it was
    really quite good in many respects - MS didn't just forge it all from
    the ground up in total isolation, ignoring all that had gone before,
    hoping to get it working right in the 3rd release.

    dt.
     
    Derek Thomson, Jul 29, 2004
    #4
  5. Neuruss

    flacco Guest

    Neuruss wrote:
    > IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
    > experimentation but not for serious development work.
    >
    > http://www.ironpython.com


    from the ironpython web page:

    "After exploring many alternatives, I think that I've found the ideal
    way to continue working to realize the amazing potential of the vision
    of the CLR. I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on
    August 2.

    "At Microsoft I plan to continue the work that I've begun with
    IronPython to bring the power and simplicity of dynamic/scripting
    languages to the CLR."
     
    flacco, Jul 29, 2004
    #5
  6. On Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:33:33 -0400, flacco
    <> wrote:
    > Neuruss wrote:
    > > IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
    > > experimentation but not for serious development work.
    > >
    > > http://www.ironpython.com

    >
    > from the ironpython web page:
    >
    > "After exploring many alternatives, I think that I've found the ideal
    > way to continue working to realize the amazing potential of the vision
    > of the CLR. I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on
    > August 2.
    >
    > "At Microsoft I plan to continue the work that I've begun with
    > IronPython to bring the power and simplicity of dynamic/scripting
    > languages to the CLR."
    >


    I saw that - does it mean there is interest in Python at Microsoft, I wonder?

    dt
     
    Derek Thomson, Jul 29, 2004
    #6
  7. Neuruss

    xtian Guest

    (Neuruss) wrote in message news:<>...
    > IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
    > experimentation but not for serious development work.
    >
    > http://www.ironpython.com



    This snippet's pretty exciting!

    """
    ....I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on August
    2.

    At Microsoft I plan to continue the work that I've begun with
    IronPython to bring the power and simplicity of dynamic/scripting
    languages to the CLR. My work with Python should continue as a working
    example of a high-performance production quality implementation of a
    dynamic language for the CLR.
    """

    I'd love to see Python as a fully-integrated .Net language - worries
    about Microsoft evilness notwithstanding.

    xtian
     
    xtian, Jul 29, 2004
    #7
  8. Hi !
    Very fun ! Thanks.




    But :
    >>> I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on August 2.



    Is Jython (futur) dead ?
     
    Michel Claveau, résurectionné d'outre-bombe inform, Jul 29, 2004
    #8
  9. Neuruss

    Ville Vainio Guest

    >>>>> "xtian" == xtian <> writes:

    xtian> I'd love to see Python as a fully-integrated .Net language
    xtian> - worries about Microsoft evilness notwithstanding.

    <aol>Me too</aol>.

    Microsoft appears to be doing a good job undermining Java. It's hard
    to imagine Sun starting to sponsor a Python-for-Java-platform
    project. Microsoft is still the underdog in the VM platform business,
    so expanding the reach of the platform makes perfect sense.

    I totally symphasize with those who worry about the possibly
    encumbered status of Mono, but I won't mind if/when .NET manages to
    bring Sun and Java down a notch, what with their arrogance and
    one-language-fits-all approach.

    --
    Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
     
    Ville Vainio, Jul 29, 2004
    #9
  10. Neuruss

    Ganesan R Guest

    >>>>> "Neuruss" == Neuruss <> writes:

    > IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
    > experimentation but not for serious development work.


    > http://www.ironpython.com


    This is exciting news. Has any one tested this with mono 1.0 on Linux?
    Simple things work, but I am not able to define a new class.

    =========
    $ ./IronPythonConsole.exe
    >>> class Test:

    .... pass
    ....
    System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
    in (unmanaged) (wrapper managed-to-native) System.Reflection.MonoField:GetValueInternal (object)
    in <0x00004> (wrapper managed-to-native) System.Reflection.MonoField:GetValueInternal (object)
    in <0x00012> System.Reflection.MonoField:GetValue (object)
    in <0x00046> IronPython.Objects.module:__getattribute__ (string)
    in <0x00032> IronPython.Objects.ModuleDictionary:get_Item (object)
    in <0x0002c> IronPython.Objects.Frame:GetGlobal (string)
    in <0x00037> input_0:Run (IronPython.Objects.Frame)
    in <0x001c5> IronPythonConsole.IronPython:DoInteractive ()
    ==========

    Ganesan
     
    Ganesan R, Jul 29, 2004
    #10
  11. Neuruss

    Ville Vainio Guest

    >>>>> "Bruno" == Bruno Desthuilliers <> writes:

    >> Microsoft appears to be doing a good job undermining Java. It's
    >> hard to imagine Sun starting to sponsor a
    >> Python-for-Java-platform project.


    Bruno> Which BTW already exists...

    Yes, of course, completely without support from Sun - and it's
    starting to fall behind current CPython in features as well. Sun
    wouldn't really need to do much - just donate some resources to get
    Jython to match current CPython in features, and make a press release
    or two mentioning that Sun is seriously supporting the use of Jython
    on Java platform.

    It would be a minimal bet as far as their resources are concerned, and
    the fact that they are not doing it suggests that it contradicts their
    stategy of force feeding their COBOL variant on everyone.

    Sometimes Sun Just Doesn't Get It. I would love to see IBM steal the
    Java leadership away from Sun, which they speculate could happen if
    Java was open sourced...

    --
    Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
     
    Ville Vainio, Jul 29, 2004
    #11
  12. Ville Vainio wrote:
    >>>>>>"xtian" == xtian <> writes:

    >
    >
    > xtian> I'd love to see Python as a fully-integrated .Net language
    > xtian> - worries about Microsoft evilness notwithstanding.
    >
    > <aol>Me too</aol>.
    >
    > Microsoft appears to be doing a good job undermining Java. It's hard
    > to imagine Sun starting to sponsor a Python-for-Java-platform
    > project.


    Which BTW already exists...

    Bruno
     
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Jul 29, 2004
    #12
  13. On 29 Jul 2004 14:35:27 +0530,
    Ganesan R <> wrote:
    > This is exciting news. Has any one tested this with mono 1.0 on Linux?
    > Simple things work, but I am not able to define a new class.


    Edd Dumbill also reports getting a simple program to work:
    http://usefulinc.com/edd/blog/contents/2004/07/29-ironpython/read

    I'd bet that if it's just a matter of a few bugs preventing IronPython from
    working,the Mono developers will fix those bugs pretty quickly.

    --amk
     
    A.M. Kuchling, Jul 29, 2004
    #13
  14. Re: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)

    Dnia Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:53:48 -0400, Peter Hansen napisa³(a):

    > As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
    > advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
    > feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
    > a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
    > cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?


    Isn't it MS-centricity that serves C#? IMHO it's so popular (relatively)
    because MS backs it.

    --
    Marek Baczyñski :: UIN 57114871 :: GG 161671 :: JID
    He who knows best best knows how little he knows. -- Thomas Jefferson
     
    Marek =?iso-8859-2?Q?Baczy=F1ski?=, Jul 29, 2004
    #14
  15. Neuruss

    Peter Hansen Guest

    Re: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)

    Marek Baczyñski wrote:

    > Dnia Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:53:48 -0400, Peter Hansen napisa³(a):
    >
    >>As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
    >>advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
    >>feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
    >>a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
    >>cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?

    >
    > Isn't it MS-centricity that serves C#? IMHO it's so popular (relatively)
    > because MS backs it.


    That's exactly what I thought, but clearly the OP thinks
    differently or (it seems to me) he wouldn't be asking the question
    he asked (or in the way he asked it).

    -Peter
     
    Peter Hansen, Jul 29, 2004
    #15
  16. On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:53:43 +0200,
    Michel Claveau, résurectionné d'outre-bombe informatique <> wrote:
    >>>> I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on August 2.

    >Is Jython (futur) dead ?


    Jim Hugunin hasn't worked on Jython in years, so this doesn't affect
    Jython's status at all.

    --amk
     
    A.M. Kuchling, Jul 29, 2004
    #16
  17. Neuruss

    Neuruss Guest

    I'm very excited with this project!
    And the fact that Jim will be working within the CLR team in Microsoft
    only gives me hope about its future. Jim already probed his talent
    when he created Jython, and now, working with Microsoft the results
    can't be bad...

    I downloaded IronPython and played with the windows forms example and
    it is miles away from an equivalenet c# program. It's increddible! All
    the simplicity of Python with the power of windows forms, just a small
    exe with all you need...

    I just can't wait for a stable release.
     
    Neuruss, Jul 29, 2004
    #17
  18. Neuruss

    Alan Kennedy Guest

    [Bruno Desthuilliers]
    >>> Microsoft appears to be doing a good job undermining Java. It's
    >>> hard to imagine Sun starting to sponsor a
    >>> Python-for-Java-platform project.

    > Which BTW already exists...


    [Ville Vainio]
    > Yes, of course, completely without support from Sun - and it's
    > starting to fall behind current CPython in features as well. Sun
    > wouldn't really need to do much - just donate some resources to get
    > Jython to match current CPython in features, and make a press release
    > or two mentioning that Sun is seriously supporting the use of Jython
    > on Java platform.
    >
    > It would be a minimal bet as far as their resources are concerned


    I'd never thought of it that way, but now that I do, I couldn't agree
    more. The comparison between the way Sun treats jython and Microsoft
    treats IronPython couldn't be starker.

    In Sun's defense, it is important to note that good things(tm) have
    come from the Java Community Process, e.g. a very well-designed,
    robust, and efficient multi-platform non-blocking IO API.

    But the problem is that the java community seems transfixed by the
    notion that it is good idea to keep building new languages. Witness
    the inapproriate use of XML-as-scripting-language in java tools, e.g.
    ant. And then there's the JCP effort to develop Groovy, a completely
    new scripting language that "includes features found in Python, Ruby,
    and Smalltalk, but uses syntax similar to the Java programming
    language". I don't understand why they can't just be happy with the
    existing scripting languages on the java platform: Is javascript not
    java-like enough? Is (p|j)ython not rock-solid enough? Obviously not:
    they keep trying to reinvent the wheel.

    I guess for Sun and the java community in general, it's a case of
    purity beats practicality.

    So those pythonic folks at Microsoft, for whom practicality beats
    purity every time, will further extend their reach/mindshare in the
    development community. Which won't bother me in the slightest: I wrote
    a C# webservice for a customer's customer there a few months ago, and
    it was a surprisingly productive experience. Python on that platform
    will be awesome.

    > Sometimes Sun Just Doesn't Get It. I would love to see IBM steal the
    > Java leadership away from Sun, which they speculate could happen if
    > Java was open sourced...


    I'm feeling a big change in the wind, with "dynamic languages"
    certainly being flavour of the month/quarter/season. Technology
    leaders across different technology areas are writing about their
    positive python experiences: Tim Bray (XML) is dipping his toe in the
    python waters, Steve Vinoski (CORBA) seems tired of the brittleness of
    static languages for building distributed object systems, and is
    trying his hand with twisted python, Jon Udell is speaking at python
    conferences now, etc. Hopefully Sun will wake up and smell the
    pythonic coffee soon ......

    samuele-pedroni-for-pope-ly y'rs

    --
    alan kennedy
    ------------------------------------------------------
    check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
    email alan: http://xhaus.com/contact/alan
     
    Alan Kennedy, Jul 29, 2004
    #18
  19. Re: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)

    After reading a tutorial on c#, I see immediately that it has all the
    features that I disliked in Java.

    1) Everything is derived from "Object"
    2) Some things have value semantics, some have reference
    3) No multiple inheritance

    I'm not sure about 2 others:

    4) No serious generic programming support
    5) Only OO supported:

    (This is HelloWorld is C#. Is this actually different than HelloWorld in
    java???)

    using System;
    public class HelloWorld
    {
    public static void Main()

    {
    // This is a single line comment

    Console.WriteLine("Hello World! From Softsteel Solutions");
    }
    }
     
    Neal D. Becker, Jul 29, 2004
    #19
  20. Neuruss

    Alan Kennedy Guest

    Re: Importance of C# (was Re: IronPython-0.6 is now available!)

    [Ivan Voras]

    >> Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it
    >> comming from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now
    >> ("Programming C#"), and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a
    >> very productive language, and speedy also.


    [Peter Hansen]
    > In what way do you feel C# is significantly different than Java?
    >
    > As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
    > advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
    > feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
    > a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
    > cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?


    IMHO, Microsoft have always been masters of the 80/20 rule: making it
    very simple for users to do 80% of what they want, but leaving them
    bending over backwards to do the last 20%. Practicality beats purity.

    http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm

    But I think MS have done a much better job with the .Net CLR ( == java
    the virtual machine) and C# ( ~= java the programming language ). They
    hired lots of clever people, asked them to come up with something
    java-like, but (better|simpler). The result is, IMHO, quite nice: I
    felt pretty at home writing C# pretty quickly, mostly because of my
    java experience. There are a few differences that might feel quirky at
    first, but they seem natural enough once you get used to them, e.g.
    the physical location from which classes are loaded determining their
    security priviledges.

    And I think it's important to note that the MS.Net CLR is not the only
    show in town. Novell backs the Mono project now, and they are a
    considerable Microsoft competitor. There are still
    highly-change-resistant organisations out there running Novell Netware
    (remember that?): many of them skipped Windows completely, and are now
    upgrading to Linux, which Novell now also sell through their
    acquisition of Suse. So in the near future, commercial users will have
    a choice of Windows/CLR.Net or SuseLinux/Mono to run their
    C#/J#/Ironpython/(VB|J)Script/etc assemblies. So possibly some serious
    competition lies ahead, deliberate attempts to introduce
    incompatibility notwithstanding.

    I see all of these matters as a huge validation of the concept of
    software virtual machines, at a social and commercial level if not a
    technical one. And of course python was doing virtual machines a long
    time before any of these JVM/CLR upstarts, which explains why its so
    stable, robust, efficient and excellent.

    just-my-0,02-euro-ly y'rs

    --
    alan kennedy
    ------------------------------------------------------
    check http headers here: http://xhaus.com/headers
    email alan: http://xhaus.com/contact/alan
     
    Alan Kennedy, Jul 29, 2004
    #20
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