IronPython-0.6 is now available!

[Neuruss]

IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
experimentation but not for serious development work.

http://www.ironpython.com

 

[Ivan Voras]

IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
experimentation but not for serious development work.

http://www.ironpython.com

This is great news! It could be an answer to those who need 'compiled'
python[*]. And cross-platform too![**]

[*] Yes, there's py2exe, and .net means IL, but it's an .exe!
[**] .net for windows, mono for unix systems

Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it comming
from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now ("Programming C#"),
and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a very productive
language, and speedy also.

 

[Peter Hansen]

Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it comming
from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now ("Programming C#"),
and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a very productive
language, and speedy also.

In what way do you feel C# is significantly different than Java?

As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?

-Peter

 

[Derek Thomson]

Btw. has any serious python-lover tried C#? I was sceptical, it comming
from Microsoft, but I'm reading a book about it now ("Programming C#"),
and I'm getting really impressed - it could be a very productive
language, and speedy also.

This isn't entirely unlikely. Microsoft actually involved a number of
non-Microsoft experts in the field of language and "virtual machine"
design in the development of some of the .NET technologies, such as
the CLR.

I haven't yet found the time to look at any of this stuff in detail,
but I will, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that it was
really quite good in many respects - MS didn't just forge it all from
the ground up in total isolation, ignoring all that had gone before,
hoping to get it working right in the 3rd release.

dt.

 

[flacco]

IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
experimentation but not for serious development work.

http://www.ironpython.com

from the ironpython web page:

"After exploring many alternatives, I think that I've found the ideal
way to continue working to realize the amazing potential of the vision
of the CLR. I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on
August 2.

"At Microsoft I plan to continue the work that I've begun with
IronPython to bring the power and simplicity of dynamic/scripting
languages to the CLR."

 

[Derek Thomson]

from the ironpython web page:

"After exploring many alternatives, I think that I've found the ideal
way to continue working to realize the amazing potential of the vision
of the CLR. I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on
August 2.

"At Microsoft I plan to continue the work that I've begun with
IronPython to bring the power and simplicity of dynamic/scripting
languages to the CLR."

I saw that - does it mean there is interest in Python at Microsoft, I wonder?

dt

 

[xtian]

IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
experimentation but not for serious development work.

http://www.ironpython.com

This snippet's pretty exciting!

"""
....I've decided to join the CLR team at Microsoft beginning on August
2.

At Microsoft I plan to continue the work that I've begun with
IronPython to bring the power and simplicity of dynamic/scripting
languages to the CLR. My work with Python should continue as a working
example of a high-performance production quality implementation of a
dynamic language for the CLR.
"""

I'd love to see Python as a fully-integrated .Net language - worries
about Microsoft evilness notwithstanding.

xtian

 

[Michel Claveau, résurectionné d'outre-bombe inform]

Hi !
Very fun ! Thanks.




But :

Is Jython (futur) dead ?

 

[Ville Vainio]

xtian> I'd love to see Python as a fully-integrated .Net language
xtian> - worries about Microsoft evilness notwithstanding.

<aol>Me too</aol>.

Microsoft appears to be doing a good job undermining Java. It's hard
to imagine Sun starting to sponsor a Python-for-Java-platform
project. Microsoft is still the underdog in the VM platform business,
so expanding the reach of the platform makes perfect sense.

I totally symphasize with those who worry about the possibly
encumbered status of Mono, but I won't mind if/when .NET manages to
bring Sun and Java down a notch, what with their arrogance and
one-language-fits-all approach.

 

[Ganesan R]

IronPython is currently at a pre-alpha stage suitable for
experimentation but not for serious development work.

http://www.ironpython.com

This is exciting news. Has any one tested this with mono 1.0 on Linux?
Simple things work, but I am not able to define a new class.

=========
$ ./IronPythonConsole.exe .... pass
....
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object
in (unmanaged) (wrapper managed-to-native) System.Reflection.MonoField:GetValueInternal (object)
in <0x00004> (wrapper managed-to-native) System.Reflection.MonoField:GetValueInternal (object)
in <0x00012> System.Reflection.MonoField:GetValue (object)
in <0x00046> IronPython.Objects.module:__getattribute__ (string)
in <0x00032> IronPython.Objects.ModuleDictionary:get_Item (object)
in <0x0002c> IronPython.Objects.Frame:GetGlobal (string)
in <0x00037> input_0:Run (IronPython.Objects.Frame)
in <0x001c5> IronPythonConsole.IronPythonoInteractive ()
==========

Ganesan

 

[Ville Vainio]

Bruno> Which BTW already exists...

Yes, of course, completely without support from Sun - and it's
starting to fall behind current CPython in features as well. Sun
wouldn't really need to do much - just donate some resources to get
Jython to match current CPython in features, and make a press release
or two mentioning that Sun is seriously supporting the use of Jython
on Java platform.

It would be a minimal bet as far as their resources are concerned, and
the fact that they are not doing it suggests that it contradicts their
stategy of force feeding their COBOL variant on everyone.

Sometimes Sun Just Doesn't Get It. I would love to see IBM steal the
Java leadership away from Sun, which they speculate could happen if
Java was open sourced...

 

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

xtian> I'd love to see Python as a fully-integrated .Net language
xtian> - worries about Microsoft evilness notwithstanding.

<aol>Me too</aol>.

Microsoft appears to be doing a good job undermining Java. It's hard
to imagine Sun starting to sponsor a Python-for-Java-platform
project.

Which BTW already exists...

Bruno

 

[A.M. Kuchling]

This is exciting news. Has any one tested this with mono 1.0 on Linux?
Simple things work, but I am not able to define a new class.

Edd Dumbill also reports getting a simple program to work:
http://usefulinc.com/edd/blog/contents/2004/07/29-ironpython/read

I'd bet that if it's just a matter of a few bugs preventing IronPython from
working,the Mono developers will fix those bugs pretty quickly.

--amk

 

[Marek =?iso-8859-2?Q?Baczy=F1ski?=]

Dnia Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:53:48 -0400, Peter Hansen napisa³(a):

As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?

Isn't it MS-centricity that serves C#? IMHO it's so popular (relatively)
because MS backs it.

 

[Peter Hansen]

Dnia Wed, 28 Jul 2004 19:53:48 -0400, Peter Hansen napisa³(a):


Isn't it MS-centricity that serves C#? IMHO it's so popular (relatively)
because MS backs it.

That's exactly what I thought, but clearly the OP thinks
differently or (it seems to me) he wouldn't be asking the question
he asked (or in the way he asked it).

-Peter

 

[A.M. Kuchling]

Is Jython (futur) dead ?

Jim Hugunin hasn't worked on Jython in years, so this doesn't affect
Jython's status at all.

--amk

 

[Neuruss]

I'm very excited with this project!
And the fact that Jim will be working within the CLR team in Microsoft
only gives me hope about its future. Jim already probed his talent
when he created Jython, and now, working with Microsoft the results
can't be bad...

I downloaded IronPython and played with the windows forms example and
it is miles away from an equivalenet c# program. It's increddible! All
the simplicity of Python with the power of windows forms, just a small
exe with all you need...

I just can't wait for a stable release.

 

[Alan Kennedy]

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Which BTW already exists...

[Ville Vainio]

Yes, of course, completely without support from Sun - and it's
starting to fall behind current CPython in features as well. Sun
wouldn't really need to do much - just donate some resources to get
Jython to match current CPython in features, and make a press release
or two mentioning that Sun is seriously supporting the use of Jython
on Java platform.

It would be a minimal bet as far as their resources are concerned

I'd never thought of it that way, but now that I do, I couldn't agree
more. The comparison between the way Sun treats jython and Microsoft
treats IronPython couldn't be starker.

In Sun's defense, it is important to note that good things(tm) have
come from the Java Community Process, e.g. a very well-designed,
robust, and efficient multi-platform non-blocking IO API.

But the problem is that the java community seems transfixed by the
notion that it is good idea to keep building new languages. Witness
the inapproriate use of XML-as-scripting-language in java tools, e.g.
ant. And then there's the JCP effort to develop Groovy, a completely
new scripting language that "includes features found in Python, Ruby,
and Smalltalk, but uses syntax similar to the Java programming
language". I don't understand why they can't just be happy with the
existing scripting languages on the java platform: Is javascript not
java-like enough? Is (p|j)ython not rock-solid enough? Obviously not:
they keep trying to reinvent the wheel.

I guess for Sun and the java community in general, it's a case of
purity beats practicality.

So those pythonic folks at Microsoft, for whom practicality beats
purity every time, will further extend their reach/mindshare in the
development community. Which won't bother me in the slightest: I wrote
a C# webservice for a customer's customer there a few months ago, and
it was a surprisingly productive experience. Python on that platform
will be awesome.

Sometimes Sun Just Doesn't Get It. I would love to see IBM steal the
Java leadership away from Sun, which they speculate could happen if
Java was open sourced...

I'm feeling a big change in the wind, with "dynamic languages"
certainly being flavour of the month/quarter/season. Technology
leaders across different technology areas are writing about their
positive python experiences: Tim Bray (XML) is dipping his toe in the
python waters, Steve Vinoski (CORBA) seems tired of the brittleness of
static languages for building distributed object systems, and is
trying his hand with twisted python, Jon Udell is speaking at python
conferences now, etc. Hopefully Sun will wake up and smell the
pythonic coffee soon ......

samuele-pedroni-for-pope-ly y'rs

 

[Neal D. Becker]

After reading a tutorial on c#, I see immediately that it has all the
features that I disliked in Java.

1) Everything is derived from "Object"
2) Some things have value semantics, some have reference
3) No multiple inheritance

I'm not sure about 2 others:

4) No serious generic programming support
5) Only OO supported:

(This is HelloWorld is C#. Is this actually different than HelloWorld in
java???)

using System;
public class HelloWorld
{
public static void Main()

{
// This is a single line comment

Console.WriteLine("Hello World! From Softsteel Solutions");
}
}

 

[Alan Kennedy]

[Ivan Voras]

[Peter Hansen]

In what way do you feel C# is significantly different than Java?

As near as I can figure, those who find Python has significant
advantages for many applications over Java and C++ will likely
feel the same way about C#, only more so. Isn't it basically
a highly MS-centric remake of Java, but missing the very
cross-platform nature which has served Java (and Python) best?

IMHO, Microsoft have always been masters of the 80/20 rule: making it
very simple for users to do 80% of what they want, but leaving them
bending over backwards to do the last 20%. Practicality beats purity.

http://management.about.com/cs/generalmanagement/a/Pareto081202.htm

But I think MS have done a much better job with the .Net CLR ( == java
the virtual machine) and C# ( ~= java the programming language ). They
hired lots of clever people, asked them to come up with something
java-like, but (better|simpler). The result is, IMHO, quite nice: I
felt pretty at home writing C# pretty quickly, mostly because of my
java experience. There are a few differences that might feel quirky at
first, but they seem natural enough once you get used to them, e.g.
the physical location from which classes are loaded determining their
security priviledges.

And I think it's important to note that the MS.Net CLR is not the only
show in town. Novell backs the Mono project now, and they are a
considerable Microsoft competitor. There are still
highly-change-resistant organisations out there running Novell Netware
(remember that?): many of them skipped Windows completely, and are now
upgrading to Linux, which Novell now also sell through their
acquisition of Suse. So in the near future, commercial users will have
a choice of Windows/CLR.Net or SuseLinux/Mono to run their
C#/J#/Ironpython/(VB|J)Script/etc assemblies. So possibly some serious
competition lies ahead, deliberate attempts to introduce
incompatibility notwithstanding.

I see all of these matters as a huge validation of the concept of
software virtual machines, at a social and commercial level if not a
technical one. And of course python was doing virtual machines a long
time before any of these JVM/CLR upstarts, which explains why its so
stable, robust, efficient and excellent.

just-my-0,02-euro-ly y'rs