[IronPython] Jim Hugunin's web log.

Discussion in 'Python' started by David Wilson, Aug 30, 2004.

  1. David Wilson

    David Wilson Guest

    For anyone who is excited about IronPython and it's consequences, you
    might find Jim Hugunin's web log to be of particular interest. I didn't
    see an announcement for this anywhere so here it is:

    http://blogs.msdn.com/hugunin/
    http://blogs.msdn.com/hugunin/Rss.aspx

    Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a
    part of it's development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and
    scripting are massive, not to mention the effects it would have on the
    average Python developer's wages and availability of work.

    It would also greatly ease the need to advocate Python in places of
    employment, as a Microsoft adopted product, it couldn't be wrong(tm).
    This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft
    hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm
    still sold.

    Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus,
    eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally
    more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie
    perl counterparts (*duck*). I'm still unsure as to whether or not this
    should be considered a Microsoft marketing strategy for making in-roads
    into the "open source scripting market".

    My apologies for the poor terminology, this really isn't my department.
    Just got a feeling. :)


    David.
     
    David Wilson, Aug 30, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. David Wilson

    Peter Hansen Guest

    David Wilson wrote:

    > It would also greatly ease the need to advocate Python in places of
    > employment, as a Microsoft adopted product, it couldn't be wrong(tm).
    > This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft
    > hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm
    > still sold.


    Will you still be "sold" if Microsoft embraces and mutates (or
    whatever is the pat phrase describing their amoebic methods)
    Python by introducing a half dozen incompatible new forms of
    syntax and such, confusing newcomers with market mumbo jumbo
    and vapourware announcements, stealing away some of the best
    minds from the open source community with obscene wages, and
    all those other little "couldn't be wrong(tm)" <wink> things
    that they have done in the past?

    This might be somewhat like what one of our (Canadian) past
    Prime Ministers referred to as "sleeping with an elephant" in
    reference to living next to the US. "No matter how friendly and
    even-tempered the beast, one is affected by every twitch and grunt."

    (See http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pierre_Trudeau for a possibly
    accurate quote.)

    -Peter
     
    Peter Hansen, Aug 30, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. David Wilson wrote:
    > Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus,
    > eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally
    > more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie
    > perl counterparts (*duck*).


    I don't think this is an accurate description. Instead, Python is not
    tied so much in Unix as Perl is (IMO). It is not Python's philosophy
    to make all platforms look alike, but rather to expose all features of
    a platform to the Python programmer - whether this is /dev/tty on Unix
    or the registry on Windows. For features where it makes sense, a common
    interface is established; other features are by nature restricted to
    a single platform.

    As a result of that philosophy, people are often tempted to port Python
    to "strange" platforms (be that Mac OS 9, BeOS, VMS, or the JVM). They
    then found that Python maintainers where open to changes resulting from
    these ports as long no harm was done to Python "proper" (laissez-faire);
    this continues to encourage people to experiment with the language, and
    with various platforms.

    Regards,
    Martin
     
    =?ISO-8859-15?Q?=22Martin_v=2E_L=F6wis=22?=, Aug 30, 2004
    #3
  4. David Wilson

    Donn Cave Guest

    In article <>,
    "Martin v. Lowis" <> wrote:

    > David Wilson wrote:
    > > Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus,
    > > eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally
    > > more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie
    > > perl counterparts (*duck*).

    >
    > I don't think this is an accurate description. Instead, Python is not
    > tied so much in Unix as Perl is (IMO). It is not Python's philosophy
    > to make all platforms look alike, but rather to expose all features of
    > a platform to the Python programmer - whether this is /dev/tty on Unix
    > or the registry on Windows. For features where it makes sense, a common
    > interface is established; other features are by nature restricted to
    > a single platform.
    >
    > As a result of that philosophy, people are often tempted to port Python
    > to "strange" platforms (be that Mac OS 9, BeOS, VMS, or the JVM). They
    > then found that Python maintainers where open to changes resulting from
    > these ports as long no harm was done to Python "proper" (laissez-faire);
    > this continues to encourage people to experiment with the language, and
    > with various platforms.


    I'll go along with that, it's sure a positive factor for me -
    sort of like the NetBSD of programming languages. And to my
    way of thinking it's essentially an open source phenomenon.
    Python does generally get there before Perl, but it also gets
    there before ... Smalltalk? Mathematica? Kind of stumped for
    closed source Python competitors. Perl has its own problems
    (as does Tcl: "Tk".) I would propose GNU C as an example of
    open source software that manages to take root in strange soil.
    Written partly by Stallman himself if I remember right.

    It might be true that the Python community is relatively free
    of stridently ideological open source advocacy, but if Python
    had not been open source, none of us would have ever heard of it.
    Whether or not it makes sense for all software to be open source,
    when it comes to "middle ware" like compilers and interpreters
    it makes an awful lot of sense.

    Donn Cave,

    PS: Yes I know there has been an open source Smalltalk for years,
    but for a long time it seemed like Smalltalk was dominated
    by commercial, closed source implementations, and GNU Smalltalk
    was a footnote. At that time it seemed that that language
    had some promising traction in business applications, and I
    guess it's a miracle there's no Microsoft Visual Smalltalk.
    Meanwhile, Smalltalk hasn't exactly taken over the world, and
    Python has emerged from its relative obscurity at the time.
     
    Donn Cave, Aug 30, 2004
    #4
  5. David Wilson

    flacco Guest

    David Wilson wrote:
    > Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a
    > part of it's development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and
    > scripting are massive, not to mention the effects it would have on the
    > average Python developer's wages and availability of work.


    why in the world would we want to put aside the concerns about microsoft
    that we have, which you have "misnomered" under the umbrella term
    "anti-trust conspiracy theories"?


    > This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft
    > hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm
    > still sold.

    [...]
    > My apologies for the poor terminology, this really isn't my department.
    > Just got a feeling. :)


    are you in advertising by any chance?
     
    flacco, Aug 30, 2004
    #5
  6. On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 20:11:51 +0100,
    David Wilson <> wrote:
    > Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a
    > part of its development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and
    > scripting are massive...


    Hugunin has said his job is to "make the CLR better for dynamic languages".
    It's unclear to me that directive is synonymous with "develop IronPython
    further"; he could invent his own new language and implement that, or work
    with other CLR-based projects. I wouldn't conclude that Microsoft is
    adopting Python as a supported tool, or even that Python is Hugunin's
    primary focus, until he actually says that's his goal.

    --amk
     
    A.M. Kuchling, Aug 31, 2004
    #6
  7. David Wilson

    yaipa h. Guest

    flacco <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > David Wilson wrote:
    > > Anti-trust conspiracy theories aside, if Microsoft adopts Python as a
    > > part of it's development toolset, the repercussions for Windows RAD and
    > > scripting are massive, not to mention the effects it would have on the
    > > average Python developer's wages and availability of work.

    >
    > why in the world would we want to put aside the concerns about microsoft
    > that we have, which you have "misnomered" under the umbrella term
    > "anti-trust conspiracy theories"?
    >
    >
    > > This is perhaps the first time where I have been glad to see Microsoft
    > > hijack something. Even if IronPython becomes a commercial offering, I'm
    > > still sold.

    > [...]
    > > My apologies for the poor terminology, this really isn't my department.
    > > Just got a feeling. :)

    >
    > are you in advertising by any chance?


    Hey, if Python can reuse the .net GUI builder... Cool.
    Give something, get something back. So it goes...

    Cheers,

    --Al
     
    yaipa h., Aug 31, 2004
    #7
  8. David Wilson

    Neuruss Guest

    > Hugunin has said his job is to "make the CLR better for dynamic languages".
    > It's unclear to me that directive is synonymous with "develop IronPython
    > further"; he could invent his own new language and implement that, or work
    > with other CLR-based projects. I wouldn't conclude that Microsoft is
    > adopting Python as a supported tool, or even that Python is Hugunin's
    > primary focus, until he actually says that's his goal.


    I agree. I think the primary focus of Microsoft is to make the CLR the
    best and most attractive development platform, and a good way to
    achieve this is by making it more friendly to as many languages as
    possible, including scripting ones.
    That's the reason they hired Jim Hugunin. Not only to develop python
    for the CLR, but to improve the CLR for all the scripting languages
    and to investigate the best ways to implement these languages for the
    CLR.

    As for the concerns about Microsoft "hijacking" python, I think they
    probable go too far. We all know what MS did in the past, but this
    time, I think they shifted their policies drastically.

    There's a whole move of opening their source and submitting standards
    that confirm that their new strategy is stabilishing .NET as "the"
    platform.
    In this task, open source developers have an important place.

    Regarding Jim Hugunin, he already implied in his comments that his
    intentions are to impement python as close to the standard
    implementation as posible. He even consults Gudo regularly on this
    subject. And seeing what he did with Jython, there's no reason to
    disbelieve.
     
    Neuruss, Aug 31, 2004
    #8
  9. David Wilson ha scritto:
    > For anyone who is excited about IronPython and it's consequences, you
    > might find Jim Hugunin's web log to be of particular interest. I didn't
    > see an announcement for this anywhere so here it is:
    >


    nice to hear, thanks

    > Other random thoughts: my experiences of the Python community versus,
    > eg., the perl community make me believe that Pythonistas are generally
    > more accepting of commercial solutions than their open source weenie
    > perl counterparts (*duck*). I'm still unsure as to whether or not this
    > should be considered a Microsoft marketing strategy for making in-roads
    > into the "open source scripting market".


    Imo MS has always played with scripting languages.
    The Shares Source CLI used perl.exe in its build process (maybe it still
    does), and IIRC MS owns part of ActiveState. Plus, in a presentation of
    MSH/Monad/"the new cmd.exe" they mentioned it being 'as powerful as perl
    ,python or ruby'.
     
    @(remove)yahoo.it, Aug 31, 2004
    #9
  10. On Tue, 2004-08-31 at 07:46, Neuruss wrote:
    > As for the concerns about Microsoft "hijacking" python, I think they
    > probable go too far. We all know what MS did in the past, but this
    > time, I think they shifted their policies drastically.
    >
    > There's a whole move of opening their source and submitting standards
    > that confirm that their new strategy is stabilishing .NET as "the"
    > platform.


    I'll believe they have changed after a decade of proof.

    Skeptical.

    John
     
    John Marshall, Aug 31, 2004
    #10
  11. David Wilson

    Baalbek Guest

    Neuruss wrote:

    > As for the concerns about Microsoft "hijacking" python, I think they
    > probable go too far. We all know what MS did in the past, but this
    > time, I think they shifted their policies drastically.


    Yeah, sure, after more than 25 years (since Microsoft's inception) of
    foul play, they have "shifted their policies drastically".

    The latest statements from their PR dudes must be the proof of this!

    How naive are you?

    QQQ
     
    Baalbek, Sep 5, 2004
    #11
  12. David Wilson

    Neuruss Guest

    > How naive are you?

    I don't think I'm naive. I just don't suffer paranoia.

    Regarding Ironpython, I just love to see it alive.
    I love python, and I want to see it running everywhere. What's the
    problem with python in the CLR? None! One place more to see it
    running!

    And if you don't like Microsoft, or you just hate it, or if you're one
    of those guys who think that Redmond is ploting to destroy the world,
    well, you still can use Cpython or Jython. You choose, it's up to you.

    I just think that, being Microsoft and .NET (and now Mono and soon
    dotgnu) so ubiquitous, it wont harm Python if someone creates an
    implementation to take full advantage of this framework.

    Hugunin already did an excellent job with Jython, and it's hard to
    believe that while working for the evil empire he will come up with
    the seed of destruction for python...
     
    Neuruss, Sep 5, 2004
    #12
  13. David Wilson

    Baalbek Guest

    Neuruss wrote:
    >>How naive are you?

    >
    >
    > I don't think I'm naive. I just don't suffer paranoia.
    >
    > Regarding Ironpython, I just love to see it alive.
    > I love python, and I want to see it running everywhere. What's the
    > problem with python in the CLR? None! One place more to see it
    > running!


    Sorry, it came of more harshly than I intended.

    I only reacted to "this time, I think they shifted their policies
    drastically", which has been believed time and again, and one has lived
    to regret trusting Microsoft, as far as I know.

    As far as your other statements, no problems at all with me, I too would
    like to see Python going "where no other programming language has dared
    to go" :)
     
    Baalbek, Sep 6, 2004
    #13
  14. David Wilson

    Neuruss Guest

    > Sorry, it came of more harshly than I intended.

    Don't worry. I'm the bully here ;-)
     
    Neuruss, Sep 6, 2004
    #14
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Ken North
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    486
    Ken North
    Mar 1, 2004
  2. Replies:
    0
    Views:
    291
  3. Tom Anderson
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    307
    Tom Anderson
    Apr 5, 2010
  4. Larry Hastings

    Contact information for Jim Hugunin?

    Larry Hastings, Jul 22, 2013, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    82
    Larry Hastings
    Jul 22, 2013
  5. Albert Hopkins

    Re: Contact information for Jim Hugunin?

    Albert Hopkins, Jul 24, 2013, in forum: Python
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    107
    greymausg
    Jul 27, 2013
Loading...

Share This Page