Is Java for Palm/PocketPC/Zaurus a solution

Discussion in 'Java' started by anton, Feb 16, 2004.

  1. anton

    anton Guest

    Hi,

    does/did somebody write a java app which
    runs on PocketPC (2003) and Palm OS 5.x?

    I passed some time in google, on the sun homepage, and and and..
    in different forums, but at sun.com I saw only palm 3.5 mentioned,
    otherwise the *concrete* information ... I simply didnt find it.

    I need to write a small gui app on a portable device which communicate
    with a PC with bluetooth or wlan, I will see.

    Why java? Because Sun told all the time write once run everywhere,
    but I do not find on sun.com any concrete details like:
    - on what PDA can I run java
    - what java
    - what are the tools

    or is java obsolete for PDA's (my feeling).

    So I simply would like to know, if some of you had the same
    problem and what he did.
    (or its better to code in C/C++)??

    Thanks

    Stephane
    anton, Feb 16, 2004
    #1
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  2. On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 23:11:20 +0100, anton <> wrote:
    >Hi,
    >
    >does/did somebody write a java app which
    >runs on PocketPC (2003) and Palm OS 5.x?
    >
    >I passed some time in google, on the sun homepage, and and and..
    >in different forums, but at sun.com I saw only palm 3.5 mentioned,
    >otherwise the *concrete* information ... I simply didnt find it.


    --<snip>--

    Is there any difference between 3.5. and 5? I worked on the J2ME
    version of java-chess ( http://www.java-chess.de ). It worked on a
    emulated Nokia 3650 device just like it worked on Pose emulating a
    M100. And we are aware of one guy running the J2SE version on a
    Zaurus. But that's 2 branches in the source-tree, although it should
    be feasable to merge them via conditional compilation.

    Ciao,
    Andreas
    Andreas Rueckert, Feb 17, 2004
    #2
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  3. anton

    stephan Guest

    (Andreas Rueckert) wrote in message news:<-rueckert.de>...
    > --<snip>--
    >
    > Is there any difference between 3.5. and 5? I worked on the J2ME
    > version of java-chess ( http://www.java-chess.de ). It worked on a
    > emulated Nokia 3650 device just like it worked on Pose emulating a
    > M100. And we are aware of one guy running the J2SE version on a
    > Zaurus. But that's 2 branches in the source-tree, although it should
    > be feasable to merge them via conditional compilation.
    >
    > Ciao,
    > Andreas

    Hi Andreas,

    My main problem is:
    - I never had (and still don't have) a PDA
    - I never programmed in java (only a hello world, I ama C++ programmer)

    And an example of problem is the sun website:
    They say there is something for palmos 3.5, fine but in my head
    the following questions appear:

    - is this product no more actively developed?

    - does it mean it run also on newer palms like palmos 5.x ?

    - or does it mean it runs only on palmos 3.5, nothing else?

    - if it runs also on palmos 5.x, have I access to all new
    features? (like bluetooth,wlan or not)

    - or should I ask palmone for java?

    - and what about other PDA's with OS like Linux or PocketPC 2003
    (somewhere in the internet I found alist of vm's
    some run on wince but what *exactly* is wince,
    there is as far as I understood, wince 3.0,4.0,4.1,4.2,
    there is pocketpc 2002,2003 or mobile windows 2003
    some comes with .net compact others not)
    I spent some time reading but I didnt see the wood
    between all the trees.

    - what development tools can I use (websphere microedition
    seems to cost nothing but its IBM... I didn exactly understand
    what the runtime cost means, the runtime on my pc, or
    the runtime delivered with all pda you sell with your soft).

    Perhaps you must pay runtime fees if you sell something,
    but I didn't understand it exactly.

    One thing which I find strange:

    If java is "write once run everywhere" then it should
    be easier to find *concrete* information with examples,
    exact product names, versions, prices.
    (Sun and IBM are the *masters of inconcrete* IMHO)

    Today it seems a philosophy
    "search your information everywhere, run on one, and
    perhaps on more"

    There should be at least one portal where you can download
    in the way like:
    - java sdk for zaurus xx (price: xx $ or free)
    - java runtime for zaurus xx
    - java sdk for palm xx
    - java runtime for palm xx
    - java sdk for pocketpc xx
    - java runtime for pocketpc xx
    - and and and...
    even if these products are not from Sun
    all the links to the products should be one one place.

    Ciao,

    Stephane

    PS: it seems you must buy a pda+developer tools and then find out
    if it can do what you want
    stephan, Feb 19, 2004
    #3
  4. anton

    Enrique Guest

    > There should be at least one portal where you can download
    > in the way like:
    > - java sdk for zaurus xx (price: xx $ or free)
    > - java runtime for zaurus xx
    > - java sdk for palm xx
    > - java runtime for palm xx
    > - java sdk for pocketpc xx
    > - java runtime for pocketpc xx
    > - and and and...
    > even if these products are not from Sun
    > all the links to the products should be one one place.


    I think java.sun.com has a j2me section that lists resources. Also,
    see if Savaj (may be misspelled) is a possible solution.
    Enrique, Feb 19, 2004
    #4
  5. anton

    Chris Mays Guest

    >>There should be at least one portal where you can download
    >>in the way like:
    >>- java sdk for zaurus xx (price: xx $ or free)
    >>- java runtime for zaurus xx
    >>- java sdk for palm xx
    >>- java runtime for palm xx
    >>- java sdk for pocketpc xx
    >>- java runtime for pocketpc xx
    >>- and and and...
    >>even if these products are not from Sun
    >>all the links to the products should be one one place.


    http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/java/
    Chris Mays, Feb 19, 2004
    #5
  6. anton wrote:

    > does/did somebody write a java app which
    > runs on PocketPC (2003) and Palm OS 5.x?
    >
    > I passed some time in google, on the sun homepage, and and and..
    > in different forums, but at sun.com I saw only palm 3.5 mentioned,
    > otherwise the *concrete* information ... I simply didnt find it.


    Sun released the MIDP4Palm interim solution a while back to allow MIDlets to
    run on Palm 3.5 and later. Currently, Palm has licensed IBM's WME
    environment for running MIDlets on Tungsten handsets.

    > I need to write a small gui app on a portable device which communicate
    > with a PC with bluetooth or wlan, I will see.
    >
    > Why java? Because Sun told all the time write once run everywhere,
    > but I do not find on sun.com any concrete details like:
    > - on what PDA can I run java
    > - what java
    > - what are the tools
    >
    > or is java obsolete for PDA's (my feeling).


    It's not obsolete, but I believe the market has shifted somewhat. Today,
    there is a higher demand for mobile phones and many of them are coming out
    with the MIDP. So, focus is currently on the mobile phone market and
    providing solutions there. IBM has the resources and has taken the time to
    produce the J9 platform which is a viable MIDP platform (though it
    technically cannot be called that).

    Unfortunately, there *is* a version of the Personal Profile for the iPAQ but
    it has not been released yet by Sun. IBM's WME can be used on the iPAQ as
    well, and can be downloaded for free with their Websphere development
    bundle.

    > So I simply would like to know, if some of you had the same
    > problem and what he did.
    > (or its better to code in C/C++)??


    If you want *portability* then Java's the way to go. If you're going for a
    single handset, I don't see a reason not to use native code, especially if
    a viable Java platform's not available.

    --
    Darryl L. Pierce <>
    Visit the Infobahn Offramp - <http://mypage.org/mcpierce>
    "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"
    Darryl L. Pierce,,,, Feb 19, 2004
    #6
  7. anton

    stephan Guest

    <snip>
    > >>even if these products are not from Sun
    > >>all the links to the products should be one one place.

    >
    > http://www.palmos.com/dev/tech/java/


    I went here (I was already there):

    Comments:
    1. The link "Kada Mobile Platform, from Kada Systems" is broken.
    What does this mean: no more supported....??

    2. I follow the link "MIDP for Palm OS, from Sun Microsystems"
    on the sun site I see no date which tells me from what time
    this information is.
    So I download the mipd for palmos 3.5 (no comment if it
    runs on other palms like tungsten .. as I said)
    I look in the midp4palm-1_0.zip and see that the files
    have the date october 2001 (AHA, at least i found
    out that this is perhaps no more supported)

    3. I follow the link
    "IBM WebSphere Studio Device Developer, from IBM"
    here I follow the link
    " WebSphere Micro Environment System requirements "
    (http://www.ibm.com/software/wireless/wme/sysreqs.html)

    I see entries like:
    - Palm OS:
    Myriad wireless/mobile devices that are based on the 68k processor and the
    Palm OS operating system.

    (OK, but what os exactly ... is the 68k processor in the actual tungsten?
    I don't know exactly but I know one tunsten use a
    Texas Instruments OMAP 1510 144MHz (ARM) processor )
    No version of PalmOS mentioned anyway :-(
    - WindowsCE - PocketPC... bot no exact version mentioned


    So ... I should give them all (sun,ibm,palm) the "award of the inconcrete"

    Stephane
    stephan, Feb 20, 2004
    #7
  8. anton

    stephan Guest

    "Darryl L. Pierce,,," <> wrote in message
    > Sun released the MIDP4Palm interim solution a while back to allow MIDlets to
    > run on Palm 3.5 and later. Currently, Palm has licensed IBM's WME
    > environment for running MIDlets on Tungsten handsets.
    >

    aha, thanks.


    > It's not obsolete, but I believe the market has shifted somewhat. Today,
    > there is a higher demand for mobile phones and many of them are coming out
    > with the MIDP. So, focus is currently on the mobile phone market and
    > providing solutions there. IBM has the resources and has taken the time to
    > produce the J9 platform which is a viable MIDP platform (though it
    > technically cannot be called that).


    hmmm.
    Here a sarcastic questions appears in my brain:

    how can something be "write once run everywhere" if it depends on
    a market/vendors/... which changes constantly?

    (its perhaps easier than native coding, but if one day your app
    doesnt run on something it needs to run on, then you have to recode it anyway?)

    > Unfortunately, there *is* a version of the Personal Profile for the iPAQ but
    > it has not been released yet by Sun. IBM's WME can be used on the iPAQ as
    > well, and can be downloaded for free with their Websphere development
    > bundle.


    I just looked for a:
    "Asus Pocket PC MyPal A620 BT "
    which has a good price.

    If you mention only iPAQ ... does it not work for the MyPal
    or does it mean I have to make a difference
    between all PocketPC's (even if they run all the same version of PocketPC)

    > If you want *portability* then Java's the way to go. If you're going for a
    > single handset, I don't see a reason not to use native code, especially if
    > a viable Java platform's not available.


    Thats what my first idea, so I could switch between Palm/PocketPC/Linux
    depending on what is the cheapest on the market.

    But ... I thing I have spend too much time now trying to find out
    if java is the best choice. I suppose in the same
    time I could have bought a pda and written my app in native code :)
    (and i suppose that native code is still much faster than a java app)

    My resumee is for now: java seems to be etablished for Server/Web Services
    and all that stuff, but for PDA and mobile market there seems to
    be a lot of movement...lets see.


    Thanks for the info :)

    Stephane

    PS: I just looked on your "Infobahn" homepage, very nice :)
    stephan, Feb 20, 2004
    #8
  9. anton <> wrote in message news:<40313f12$0$13068$>...
    > Hi,
    >
    > does/did somebody write a java app which
    > runs on PocketPC (2003) and Palm OS 5.x?


    Yes, sort of.

    I wanted to port a Java applet I had written to a Palm app, so I could
    use it on the go. I spent several days investigating my options,
    including trying to figure out how to get started programming with
    J2ME, and getting it installed on my Palm device. Results were not
    encouraging, and I never did figure out if it was even possible to put
    it on my device. From what I was able to figure out, Sun's J2ME
    license doesn't allow you to redistribute the runtime without paying
    them royalties, so you'd have to rely on the user's device already
    being J2ME-ready. I guess they're targetting the J2ME runtime at
    device vendors, not at end users. So I gave up on that option, and was
    considering learning native Palm development, and thus porting my
    program to C.

    Then I discovered SuperWaba (http://www.superwaba.com.br/). SuperWaba
    is a Java-like runtime, distributed under the LGPL, which runs on Palm
    OS 2.0 and up and Pocket PC. They can't legally call it Java, but the
    language is the same, and the API is more or less a subset of the
    standard Java API. Long story short, I ported my applet in a day or
    two, and it now runs on my Palm PDA. So I would highly recommend
    SuperWaba for any Java programmer who wants to write cross-platform
    PDA programs.

    (BTW, both the applet and the PDA version of my program are available
    at http://www.geocities.com/~karlvonl/Zendomizer.html, but unless you
    play the game Zendo (http://wunderland.com/icehouse/Zendo/index.html),
    you probably won't find it very useful or interesting.)
    Karl von Laudermann, Feb 20, 2004
    #9
  10. anton

    stephan Guest

    > Then I discovered SuperWaba (http://www.superwaba.com.br/). SuperWaba
    > is a Java-like runtime, distributed under the LGPL, which runs on Palm
    > OS 2.0 and up and Pocket PC. They can't legally call it Java, but the
    > language is the same, and the API is more or less a subset of the
    > standard Java API. Long story short, I ported my applet in a day or
    > two, and it now runs on my Palm PDA. So I would highly recommend
    > SuperWaba for any Java programmer who wants to write cross-platform
    > PDA programs.


    Thanks a lot :)

    I will look at this

    Stephane
    stephan, Feb 23, 2004
    #10
  11. Karl von Laudermann wrote:

    > I wanted to port a Java applet I had written to a Palm app, so I could
    > use it on the go. I spent several days investigating my options,
    > including trying to figure out how to get started programming with
    > J2ME, and getting it installed on my Palm device. Results were not
    > encouraging, and I never did figure out if it was even possible to put
    > it on my device.


    The first thing to do is to differentiate the different technologies under
    the J2ME umbrella. J2ME is not itself a product or technology but is a term
    to refer to the set of all Java technologies for smaller-than-desktop
    platforms. What you want to install is the Mobile Information Device
    Profile, or MIDP. Search for that and you'll have better luck.

    > From what I was able to figure out, Sun's J2ME
    > license doesn't allow you to redistribute the runtime without paying
    > them royalties, so you'd have to rely on the user's device already
    > being J2ME-ready.


    IBM already has an implementation of Personal Profile *and* the MIDP for
    Palm Tungsten devices and for PocketPC.

    <snip>

    --
    Darryl L. Pierce <>
    Visit the Infobahn Offramp - <http://mypage.org/mcpierce>
    "What do you care what other people think, Mr. Feynman?"
    Darryl L. Pierce,,,, Feb 25, 2004
    #11
  12. On Mon, 22 Feb 2004, stephan wrote:

    > > Then I discovered SuperWaba (http://www.superwaba.com.br/). SuperWaba
    > > is a Java-like runtime, distributed under the LGPL, which runs on Palm
    > > OS 2.0 and up and Pocket PC. They can't legally call it Java, but the
    > > language is the same, and the API is more or less a subset of the
    > > standard Java API. Long story short, I ported my applet in a day or
    > > two, and it now runs on my Palm PDA. So I would highly recommend
    > > SuperWaba for any Java programmer who wants to write cross-platform
    > > PDA programs.

    >
    > Thanks a lot :)
    >
    > I will look at this


    Take look a few simple open source Java/Waba apps that run on
    Palm/PocketPC/Zaurus. I'm sure there are many more, but the ones I
    have encountered were:

    jscl-meditor -- simple editor with symbolic maths
    WaJEi -- Japanese-English dictionary

    If you look at jscl-meditor you will see that while the java source may be
    the same for all the platforms, the build process is not. To get
    something that runs on Zaurus you can use a conventional build.xml with
    target="1.1" and no extra tools. The .jar file runs with either cvm or
    evm (the latter is installed by default), and it isn't hard to package
    things for the Zaurus installer. For use with PalmOS, wabajump is used to
    get a .prc file so you can't just use the same build.xml. You need a
    number of tools specific to SuperWaba/PalmOS.

    --
    George N. White III <>
    Head of St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia, Canada
    George N. White III, Feb 25, 2004
    #12
  13. George

    OT. There is a big Celtic festival held in Nova Scotia each year, can you
    tell me the dates

    TIA

    David McCallum

    "George N. White III" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Mon, 22 Feb 2004, stephan wrote:
    >
    > > > Then I discovered SuperWaba (http://www.superwaba.com.br/). SuperWaba
    > > > is a Java-like runtime, distributed under the LGPL, which runs on Palm
    > > > OS 2.0 and up and Pocket PC. They can't legally call it Java, but the
    > > > language is the same, and the API is more or less a subset of the
    > > > standard Java API. Long story short, I ported my applet in a day or
    > > > two, and it now runs on my Palm PDA. So I would highly recommend
    > > > SuperWaba for any Java programmer who wants to write cross-platform
    > > > PDA programs.

    > >
    > > Thanks a lot :)
    > >
    > > I will look at this

    >
    > Take look a few simple open source Java/Waba apps that run on
    > Palm/PocketPC/Zaurus. I'm sure there are many more, but the ones I
    > have encountered were:
    >
    > jscl-meditor -- simple editor with symbolic maths
    > WaJEi -- Japanese-English dictionary
    >
    > If you look at jscl-meditor you will see that while the java source may be
    > the same for all the platforms, the build process is not. To get
    > something that runs on Zaurus you can use a conventional build.xml with
    > target="1.1" and no extra tools. The .jar file runs with either cvm or
    > evm (the latter is installed by default), and it isn't hard to package
    > things for the Zaurus installer. For use with PalmOS, wabajump is used to
    > get a .prc file so you can't just use the same build.xml. You need a
    > number of tools specific to SuperWaba/PalmOS.
    >
    > --
    > George N. White III <>
    > Head of St. Margarets Bay, Nova Scotia, Canada
    David McCallum, Feb 25, 2004
    #13
  14. "Darryl L. Pierce,,," <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Karl von Laudermann wrote:
    >
    > > I wanted to port a Java applet I had written to a Palm app, so I could
    > > use it on the go. I spent several days investigating my options,
    > > including trying to figure out how to get started programming with
    > > J2ME, and getting it installed on my Palm device. Results were not
    > > encouraging, and I never did figure out if it was even possible to put
    > > it on my device.

    >
    > The first thing to do is to differentiate the different technologies under
    > the J2ME umbrella. J2ME is not itself a product or technology but is a term
    > to refer to the set of all Java technologies for smaller-than-desktop
    > platforms. What you want to install is the Mobile Information Device
    > Profile, or MIDP. Search for that and you'll have better luck.


    Yes, I read about MIDP while digging for info at Sun's site. IIRC, it
    wasn't entirely clear what devices were already supported.
    >
    > > From what I was able to figure out, Sun's J2ME
    > > license doesn't allow you to redistribute the runtime without paying
    > > them royalties, so you'd have to rely on the user's device already
    > > being J2ME-ready.

    >
    > IBM already has an implementation of Personal Profile *and* the MIDP for
    > Palm Tungsten devices and for PocketPC.


    That's great for people who have Tungstens, but I have a Handspring
    Visor Edge. And I wanted to make my app available for other users, who
    may have other Palm OS devices.
    Karl von Laudermann, Feb 26, 2004
    #14
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