Is ruby a viable corporate alternative?

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Mr P, Nov 28, 2006.

  1. Mr P

    Mr P Guest

    Our team uses Perl for almost 100% of our projects, as we have for the
    past 10 year or so. At that point we broke from the C/C++ herd and
    never looked back. Our productivity has been the best in the
    corporation since, and we hear nothing but complaints and bad-mouthing
    from the Java/C++ cadre since their design and implementations are
    typically 5-10X what ours are..

    Anyhow- as the team director, I'm always *looking ahead*. Although Perl
    is still serving us well, I'm thinking for the benefit of our
    developers ( to get more languages in their personal toolkit ) as well
    as making productivity improvements through OO design and the ruby
    environment, I'm starting to talk up and promote Ruby as the NEXT
    language.

    This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    they are trying to undermine us with comments like:

    o you'll never find any developers to support it, there are almost none
    in the USA

    o you won't like anything that comes out of Japan (this comment from a
    country that was conquered by Japan and still harbors a lot of
    resentment, so I sort of discounted that comment! )

    o its not gaining popularity and will probably die out

    o might as well just use Java

    .... and so on..

    Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats vis-a-vis
    other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like to go into this
    battle armed! The break from the herd 10 years ago was very
    productive, and my impression is that Ruby would have similar results.
     
    Mr P, Nov 28, 2006
    #1
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  2. Mr P

    Tom Copeland Guest

    > Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats
    > vis-a-vis other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like
    > to go into this battle armed! The break from the herd 10
    > years ago was very productive, and my impression is that Ruby
    > would have similar results.


    The TIOBE stats are always interesting, and they show Ruby moving up:

    http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

    Yours,

    Tom
     
    Tom Copeland, Nov 28, 2006
    #2
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  3. Mr P

    Jules Guest

    Maybe you could do a match: one group uses Ruby other group uses Java
    and see who gets it's program finished first. Could be fun if you have
    time for this :p

    Jules
     
    Jules, Nov 28, 2006
    #3
  4. On 28.11.2006 17:17, Mr P wrote:
    > Our team uses Perl for almost 100% of our projects, as we have for the
    > past 10 year or so. At that point we broke from the C/C++ herd and
    > never looked back. Our productivity has been the best in the
    > corporation since, and we hear nothing but complaints and bad-mouthing
    > from the Java/C++ cadre since their design and implementations are
    > typically 5-10X what ours are..


    :))

    > Anyhow- as the team director, I'm always *looking ahead*. Although Perl
    > is still serving us well, I'm thinking for the benefit of our
    > developers ( to get more languages in their personal toolkit ) as well
    > as making productivity improvements through OO design and the ruby
    > environment, I'm starting to talk up and promote Ruby as the NEXT
    > language.
    >
    > This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    > they are trying to undermine us with comments like:


    Maybe they are sensing that they are behind the Perk camp already and
    fear looking even worse compared to a well trained Ruby group. Or will
    they be forced to learn Ruby, too?

    > o you'll never find any developers to support it, there are almost none
    > in the USA


    I believe this is nonsense although I do not have statistics to prove
    it. From reading here I would guess though that there are plenty out
    there - and increasing.

    > o you won't like anything that comes out of Japan (this comment from a
    > country that was conquered by Japan and still harbors a lot of
    > resentment, so I sort of discounted that comment! )


    Yeah, complete rubbish!

    > o its not gaining popularity and will probably die out


    Actually traffic in this group has significantly increased over the past
    years and RoR is only adding to the momentum. Maybe do a search on any
    of the archives for a month these days and two years ago. I'd expect to
    see a significant raise.

    > o might as well just use Java


    Um, I don't know what you are actually doing but as a general statement
    this is rather meek. You can be quite productive with Java if you have
    a decent IDE (which can be obtained for free) but you are likely more
    productive with Ruby (assuming similar training and expertise). Java
    has certainly an edge for performance critical tasks.

    Ironically there are activities going on to make Ruby execute on a JVM -
    so they could actually have the best of both worlds. :)

    > ... and so on..
    >
    > Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats vis-a-vis
    > other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like to go into this
    > battle armed! The break from the herd 10 years ago was very
    > productive, and my impression is that Ruby would have similar results.


    Someone posted a link to a site that shows programming language
    popularity statistics some weeks ago. Maybe you can dig that up again.

    Good luck! If they don't believe you send them here. :)

    Kind regards

    robert
     
    Robert Klemme, Nov 28, 2006
    #4
  5. On Nov 28, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Mr P wrote:

    > Our team uses Perl for almost 100% of our projects, as we have for the
    > past 10 year or so. At that point we broke from the C/C++ herd and
    > never looked back. Our productivity has been the best in the
    > corporation since, and we hear nothing but complaints and bad-mouthing
    > from the Java/C++ cadre since their design and implementations are
    > typically 5-10X what ours are..
    >
    > Anyhow- as the team director, I'm always *looking ahead*. Although
    > Perl
    > is still serving us well, I'm thinking for the benefit of our
    > developers ( to get more languages in their personal toolkit ) as well
    > as making productivity improvements through OO design and the ruby
    > environment, I'm starting to talk up and promote Ruby as the NEXT
    > language.
    >
    > This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    > they are trying to undermine us with comments like:
    >
    > o you'll never find any developers to support it, there are almost
    > none
    > in the USA


    I'd point to the 300+ that actually made it out to the RubyConf in
    Denver as just an example of how silly this argument is (and how many
    are subscribed to this list as another...)

    > o you won't like anything that comes out of Japan (this comment from a
    > country that was conquered by Japan and still harbors a lot of
    > resentment, so I sort of discounted that comment! )
    >
    > o its not gaining popularity and will probably die out


    HA!

    > o might as well just use Java


    It has been commented (at least quoted by someone at RubyConf) that
    there is a surprisingly small overlap between the libraries available
    for Java and for Ruby -- they have tended to be used to solve
    different problems. Depending on the problem space, you might
    propose a contest between Ruby and Java. If you would have used
    Perl, then you can certainly use Ruby (there's even a close match in
    command-line options on the interpreter between these two). I've
    used Perl for many years and quite heavily the past 16months, I've
    been using Ruby mainly in the context of Rails, but have been
    'forcing' myself to use Ruby for the same kind of "little" tasks that
    I used for my introduction to Perl years ago. (Except this time I'm
    replacing Perl most of the time instead of awk/grep/sed.)

    > ... and so on..
    >
    > Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats vis-a-
    > vis
    > other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like to go into this
    > battle armed! The break from the herd 10 years ago was very
    > productive, and my impression is that Ruby would have similar results.


    If your team accepts Perl, there's no reason that you couldn't start
    using Ruby right away. Assuming that the team understands object-
    oriented programming (even the way it's done in Perl ;-), the
    transition should be an easy one.

    -Rob


    Rob Biedenharn http://agileconsultingllc.com
     
    Rob Biedenharn, Nov 28, 2006
    #5
  6. Mr P

    pat eyler Guest

    On 11/28/06, Mr P <> wrote:
    [background deleted]
    >
    > This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    > they are trying to undermine us with comments like:


    I'm not going to tell you that Ruby *is* the right language for you, you're
    far better prepared to make that determination. If Perl fits your needs
    well, I think Ruby is likely to be a good fit and a positive move -- but
    that's just my experience.


    >
    > o you'll never find any developers to support it, there are almost none
    > in the USA


    I'm not sure where you are, but:
    Seattle.rb has 100+ subscribers on the mailing list. Amazon is using
    Ruby internally, and many other local companies are too.
    URUG (the umbrella group for Utah based Ruby brigades), has three
    active groups and a fourth forming. The active groups have a regular
    attendance of 10+per month each. We regularly get recruiters to sponsor
    meetings and there are frequent posts to out mailing list looking for more
    Ruby and RoR hackers (from a number of companies).
    NYC.rb has a regular monthly attendance of over 40 and is working
    to put together a regional conference in the Spring.
    There are active Ruby groups in Pittsburgh, Oklahoma City, New Haven,
    Boston, San Diego, Missoula, Boise, St. Louise, Portland, Minneapolis,
    Columbus, Washington D.C., Denver, Dallas, Phoenix, and many more.
    The Ruby book market in the US is exploding. There are *eight* books
    that I know of that are do to be published between now and the end of
    Q1 2007 -- and this is on top of the already large collection.

    >
    > o you won't like anything that comes out of Japan (this comment from a
    > country that was conquered by Japan and still harbors a lot of
    > resentment, so I sort of discounted that comment! )
    >


    This isn't even worth responding too.

    > o its not gaining popularity and will probably die out
    >


    Ha! see the books comment above. Add to it the numbers that Tim
    O'Reilly throws out every quarter on the Radar O'Reilly blog. Check out
    TIOBE (as Tom Copland mentioned). The One Click Installer has gone
    over 1 million downloads. Ruby is gaining momentum, and quickly!

    > o might as well just use Java


    A number of Java folks are turning to Ruby as a great tool. Sun is
    helping put Ruby on the JVM (and paying to full-time engineers to
    do so). Saying you might as well use Java is kind of like driving
    an RV to do your shopping instead of taking the family car. It'll work,
    but it's overkill (and a huge waste of resources).

    >
    > ... and so on..

    . . and so on. ;^)

    >
    > Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats vis-a-vis
    > other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like to go into this
    > battle armed! The break from the herd 10 years ago was very
    > productive, and my impression is that Ruby would have similar results.
    >



    If Dynamic Languages fit your problem space, Ruby can be a wonderful
    tool for you -- and it's a cool community to belong to.



    >
    >



    --
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    http://on-ruby.blogspot.com
     
    pat eyler, Nov 28, 2006
    #6
  7. Mr P

    Dave Rose Guest

    ...i realy recommend you read 'from jave to ruby' by bruce tate...and
    come to the erubyconf in columbus,ohio..to meet him and discuss your
    situation with bruce..registartion is this fri 12/1/2006..in our small
    shop we started very small..and are now tackling bigger jobs as we have
    more success....

    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
     
    Dave Rose, Nov 28, 2006
    #7
  8. Mr P

    Sammy Larbi Guest

    Jules wrote, On 11/28/2006 10:30 AM:
    > Maybe you could do a match: one group uses Ruby other group uses Java
    > and see who gets it's program finished first. Could be fun if you have
    > time for this :p
    >
    > Jules
    >
    >
    >

    Except for the folks using Java. =)
     
    Sammy Larbi, Nov 28, 2006
    #8
  9. Mr P

    Li Chen Guest


    > NYC.rb has a regular monthly attendance of over 40 and is working
    > to put together a regional conference in the Spring.
    > There are active Ruby groups in Pittsburgh, Oklahoma City, New Haven,
    > Boston, San Diego, Missoula, Boise, St. Louise, Portland, Minneapolis,
    > Columbus,


    What is the name for the one in Columbus?

    Li

    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
     
    Li Chen, Nov 28, 2006
    #9
  10. Mr P

    pat eyler Guest

    On 11/28/06, Li Chen <> wrote:
    >
    > > NYC.rb has a regular monthly attendance of over 40 and is working
    > > to put together a regional conference in the Spring.
    > > There are active Ruby groups in Pittsburgh, Oklahoma City, New Haven,
    > > Boston, San Diego, Missoula, Boise, St. Louise, Portland, Minneapolis,
    > > Columbus,

    >
    > What is the name for the one in Columbus?


    the columbus.rb
    http://www.columbusrb.com/



    >
    > Li
    >
    > --
    > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
    >
    >



    --
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    http://on-ruby.blogspot.com
     
    pat eyler, Nov 28, 2006
    #10
  11. Mr P

    Guido Sohne Guest

    I would say Ruby is a viable corporate alternative. It has cut down my
    development time by a factor of ten, for web services and web apps
    (using Rails). I would not like to touch Java again.

    Your Java/C++ cadre are probably the late adopters who said the same
    thing about Java when it came out. I would try to not let them hold me
    back ... Java's 'strong' point now I would say is in web apps, that's
    where I seem to see it being used most AFAICT.

    Linux Journal just gave their Editor's Choice (from another thread on
    this list) to Rails for web app framework and to Ruby for language.

    http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/9368

    I think the trick is to get into stuff early but not *too* early - and
    to ignore the laggards since they will always be there, any way. If
    they want to write huge amounts of code, that's fine with me, but
    hopefully they are on their own team and can slog as much as they want
    while wiser people save time and finish early.

    -- G.

    On 11/28/06, Mr P <> wrote:
    > Our team uses Perl for almost 100% of our projects, as we have for the
    > past 10 year or so. At that point we broke from the C/C++ herd and
    > never looked back. Our productivity has been the best in the
    > corporation since, and we hear nothing but complaints and bad-mouthing
    > from the Java/C++ cadre since their design and implementations are
    > typically 5-10X what ours are..
    >
    > Anyhow- as the team director, I'm always *looking ahead*. Although Perl
    > is still serving us well, I'm thinking for the benefit of our
    > developers ( to get more languages in their personal toolkit ) as well
    > as making productivity improvements through OO design and the ruby
    > environment, I'm starting to talk up and promote Ruby as the NEXT
    > language.
    >
    > This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    > they are trying to undermine us with comments like:
    >
    > o you'll never find any developers to support it, there are almost none
    > in the USA
    >
    > o you won't like anything that comes out of Japan (this comment from a
    > country that was conquered by Japan and still harbors a lot of
    > resentment, so I sort of discounted that comment! )
    >
    > o its not gaining popularity and will probably die out
    >
    > o might as well just use Java
    >
    > ... and so on..
    >
    > Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats vis-a-vis
    > other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like to go into this
    > battle armed! The break from the herd 10 years ago was very
    > productive, and my impression is that Ruby would have similar results.
    >
    >
    >
     
    Guido Sohne, Nov 28, 2006
    #11
  12. Mr P

    gregarican Guest

    pat eyler wrote:
    > On 11/28/06, Li Chen <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > NYC.rb has a regular monthly attendance of over 40 and is working
    > > > to put together a regional conference in the Spring.
    > > > There are active Ruby groups in Pittsburgh, Oklahoma City, New Haven,
    > > > Boston, San Diego, Missoula, Boise, St. Louise, Portland, Minneapolis,
    > > > Columbus,

    > >
    > > What is the name for the one in Columbus?

    >
    > the columbus.rb
    > http://www.columbusrb.com/
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > Li
    > >
    > > --
    > > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    > --
    > thanks,
    > -pate
    > -------------------------
    > http://on-ruby.blogspot.com


    Interesting. I live in Columbus, Ohio and didn't realize there was a
    Ruby user's group here. I should try to find the time and make one of
    the meetings. I've been using Ruby for 2 years now for The Diamond
    Cellar (http://www.diamondcellar.com) and have had the chance to build
    a couple of in-house GUI apps (a mobile CRM app and an employee survey
    app), a Rails order management system, and lots of admin scripts. I'd
    be interested in hearing how other folks leverage Ruby...
     
    gregarican, Nov 29, 2006
    #12
  13. Mr P

    Guest

    Hi --

    On Wed, 29 Nov 2006, gregarican wrote:

    >
    > pat eyler wrote:
    >> On 11/28/06, Li Chen <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> NYC.rb has a regular monthly attendance of over 40 and is working
    >>>> to put together a regional conference in the Spring.
    >>>> There are active Ruby groups in Pittsburgh, Oklahoma City, New Haven,
    >>>> Boston, San Diego, Missoula, Boise, St. Louise, Portland, Minneapolis,
    >>>> Columbus,
    >>>
    >>> What is the name for the one in Columbus?

    >>
    >> the columbus.rb
    >> http://www.columbusrb.com/

    >
    > Interesting. I live in Columbus, Ohio and didn't realize there was a
    > Ruby user's group here.


    Not only that; you've also got a conference coming up:
    http://erubycon.com/


    David

    --
    David A. Black |
    Author of "Ruby for Rails" [1] | Ruby/Rails training & consultancy [3]
    DABlog (DAB's Weblog) [2] | Co-director, Ruby Central, Inc. [4]
    [1] http://www.manning.com/black | [3] http://www.rubypowerandlight.com
    [2] http://dablog.rubypal.com | [4] http://www.rubycentral.org
     
    , Nov 29, 2006
    #13
  14. Mr P

    Ken Bloom Guest

    On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:40 -0800, Mr P wrote:

    > Our team uses Perl for almost 100% of our projects, as we have for the
    > past 10 year or so. At that point we broke from the C/C++ herd and
    > never looked back. Our productivity has been the best in the
    > corporation since, and we hear nothing but complaints and bad-mouthing
    > from the Java/C++ cadre since their design and implementations are
    > typically 5-10X what ours are..
    >
    > Anyhow- as the team director, I'm always *looking ahead*. Although Perl
    > is still serving us well, I'm thinking for the benefit of our
    > developers ( to get more languages in their personal toolkit ) as well
    > as making productivity improvements through OO design and the ruby
    > environment, I'm starting to talk up and promote Ruby as the NEXT
    > language.
    >
    > This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    > they are trying to undermine us with comments like:
    >
    > o you'll never find any developers to support it, there are almost none
    > in the USA
    >
    > o you won't like anything that comes out of Japan (this comment from a
    > country that was conquered by Japan and still harbors a lot of
    > resentment, so I sort of discounted that comment! )
    >
    > o its not gaining popularity and will probably die out


    I can't really answer any of these specific concerns, but I can say that I
    think Java is a pain in the butt to program, owing to various kinds of
    inconsistent semantics (e.g. the dichotomy between arrays and
    Collections). C++, as much as everyone thinks it's a worse
    language, is nonetheless easier to program, and I absolutely love
    Ruby.

    --Ken

    --
    Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
    Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
    http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
     
    Ken Bloom, Nov 29, 2006
    #14
  15. Mr P

    Ken Bloom Guest

    On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 08:17:40 -0800, Mr P wrote:

    > Our team uses Perl for almost 100% of our projects, as we have for the
    > past 10 year or so. At that point we broke from the C/C++ herd and
    > never looked back. Our productivity has been the best in the
    > corporation since, and we hear nothing but complaints and bad-mouthing
    > from the Java/C++ cadre since their design and implementations are
    > typically 5-10X what ours are..


    Consider yourself warned that Ruby doesn't have any native compiler (like
    perlcc for perl) or bytecode compiler, so if you're releasing your code
    to the world, you have no practical way to protect your investment (yet).

    --Ken

    --
    Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
    Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
    http://www.iit.edu/~kbloom1/
     
    Ken Bloom, Nov 29, 2006
    #15

  16. > This REALLY set off a firestorm from the Java folks, They are already
    > they are trying to undermine us with comments like:



    > o might as well just use Java
    >
    > ... and so on..
    >
    > Anyhow, if you all can provide me with websites on Ruby stats vis-a-
    > vis
    > other languages, trends, successes, etc., I'd like to go into this
    > battle armed! The break from the herd 10 years ago was very
    > productive, and my impression is that Ruby would have similar results.


    Some anecdotal evidence: as of RailsConf 2006, 65% of the 20 No Fluff
    Just Stuff speakers (Java gurus) were making their living from Ruby
    on Rails instead. Some names that your Java colleagues may recognise
    (apologies to anyone who feels left out :) are:

    - Dave Thomas (Pragmatic Programmers)
    - James Duncan Davidson (Ant, Tomcat, Servlet API)
    - Mike Clark (testing enthusiast)
    - Tom Copeland (PMD)

    Regards,
    Andy Stewart
     
    Andrew Stewart, Nov 29, 2006
    #16
  17. I am not sure what you mean by *corporate* alternative, that term in
    my mind suggests internal applications to an enterprise.

    One area that Ruby is going to have trouble with is on Windows. Ruby is a great
    experience on Unix & Mac environments, but it can get pretty clunky on windows.
    For GUI-based applications you can have some byzantine install procedures
    (the GUI admin client installation for SQLite takes the piss).

    Rails on Linux massively outperforms Rails on Windows, thats probably not a huge
    deal, but the support ecology is biased towards Unix environments - don't expect
    the plugins and libraries to always have windows equivalents or the
    windows equivalents
    may be less mature or less well tested (not enough eyes). Often you simply have
    less options as a developer when you are shipping on a windows platform (like
    no Capistrano).

    Ruby is a great language but if windows development is of primary
    interest to you,
    you will have to curtail your ambitions or research the problem thoroughly.
     
    Richard Conroy, Nov 29, 2006
    #17
  18. Mr P

    Brad Tilley Guest

    Quoting Richard Conroy <>:

    > Ruby is a great language but if windows development is of primary interest to

    you, >you will have to curtail your ambitions or research the problem
    thoroughly.

    This has been my experience as well. Windows support is improving, but it's not
    as good as some other open source/free scripting languages (Python and Perl).
    Having said that, you can still do a lot with Ruby on Windows (especially
    systems stuff). I wrote this in Ruby on Windows, it's not a very good example,
    but it's very Windows specific:

    http://filebox.vt.edu/users/rtilley/public/svc_tag/svc_tag.html

    When I have to muck around with security descriptors or other more complex
    windows specific stuff, I general use Python when Ruby cannot do the task as
    easily.

    Just my 2 cents,

    Brad
     
    Brad Tilley, Nov 29, 2006
    #18
  19. Brad Tilley wrote:
    > Quoting Richard Conroy <>:
    >
    >
    >> Ruby is a great language but if windows development is of primary interest to
    >>

    > you, >you will have to curtail your ambitions or research the problem
    > thoroughly.
    >
    > This has been my experience as well. Windows support is improving, but it's not
    > as good as some other open source/free scripting languages (Python and Perl).
    >

    Are you referring to ActiveState when you mean "Windows support?"

    --
    M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, FBG, AB, PTA, PGS, MS, MNLP, NST, ACMC(P)
    http://borasky-research.blogspot.com/

    If God had meant for carrots to be eaten cooked, He would have given rabbits fire.
     
    M. Edward (Ed) Borasky, Nov 29, 2006
    #19
  20. Mr P

    Brad Tilley Guest

    Quoting "M. Edward (Ed) Borasky" <>:

    > Are you referring to ActiveState when you mean "Windows support?"


    No. Things like Mark Hammonds win32 packages for Python that add a huge amount
    of Windows specific functionality: http://sourceforge.net/projects/pywin32/

    I think Daniel Berger and some others are working on a lot of win32 specific
    stuff for Ruby that may one day be comparable to that:
    http://rubyforge.org/projects/win32utils/

    Also, simple things like having an MSI based installer for large scale
    installations (install across an entire domain for example).
     
    Brad Tilley, Nov 29, 2006
    #20
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