P.J. Plauger said:
news
[email protected]... [...]
IIRC, Netscape began by doing much the same thing to another
company.
Hu? Netscape was created by members of the team who created NCSA Mosaic.
If you are talking about the lawsuit filed by the University of Illinois,
that was over use of the name Mosaic, and hardly constitutes a concerted
effort on the part of a few former students and researchers to put UIUC out
of business. Ironically, UIUC eventually sold Mosaic to a company called
Spyglass who in turn licensed its technology to Microsoft where it became
known as IE.
Of course, that's legal if you're not using your
monopoly power in one arena to take unfair advantage in
another. But you, of course are talking about moral objectives,
albeit divorced from good and evil...
I was speaking of the motive of the founders of Netscape Communications as
they perceived them.
[...]
Oh, I think I followed your reasoning. I just agree with Pete
that you have a slanted perspective that leads you to attribute
a disproportionate influence by Microsoft. IMO, to the extent
that the problem you see is real, it's caused mostly by the
dominance of a single architecture. Over the past 40+ years,
I've seen IBM and Digital dominate important parts of the
computer business for years at a time. And both companies
were subject to much the same vilification that Microsoft now
enjoys. Doubtless some of it was earned, by all three companies,
but much of it stems from techies who are frustrated that their
"obvious" development agendas are being ignored. Get over it.
Well, since I'm fairly new to C++, and have not had longstanding development
agendas related to C++, your comment seems rather absurd. Additionally, my
objectives and ideas are slowly manifesting themselves in many ways. You
probably have little comprehension of what, exactly, my objectives are.
The following description of an ideal development environment communicates
the kind of vision which leads to the frustration I have with the current
state of C++ development tools:
"Let me outline the program development environment I'd like for C++. First
of all, I want incremental compilation. When I make a minor change, I want
the ``system'' to note that it was minor, and have the new version compiled
and ready to run in a second.[*] Similarly, I want simple requests, such as
``Show me the declaration of this f?'' ``what fs are in scope here?''
``what is the resolution of this use of +?'' ``Which classes are derived
from class Shapen?'' and ``what destructors are called at the end of this
block?'' answered in a second.
"A C++ program contains a wealth of information that in a typlical
environment is available only to a compiler. I want that information at
the programmer's fingertips." - D&E § 9.4.4 /Beyond Files and Syntax/
[*]If things are arranged correctly I have that with GNU autotools. But M4
is an anti-language. I note that both Java and C# usually compile much
faster than a comperable sized C++ program, and usually don't propagate the
effects of a change to nearly the extent C++ programs do.
Mind you, I don't simply wait around for someone to do these things for me.
I am actively involved in efforts to create such tools. I happen to
believe the comments in D&E §9.4.3 describe problems which directly impact
the ability to provide the features outlined in §9.4.4. To a large extent,
that is the area that has been neglected because of the dominance of
Windows as a development environment. I will also observe that in both
Java and C# (as well as in C#'s C++ emulation mode, C++/CLI), the IDE
features described in §9.4.4 are much easier to provide. These *_can_* be
provided for C++, and I have solid ideas of how this can be accomplished.
The problems are not technical, they are political.
And that *still* doesn't explain your opaque editorial remark.
It had to do with the fact that we now see rapid movement toward providing
the kinds of features I am envisioning for C++, proper, using the CLI and
its heavy, built-in, mechanisms, while these same players have resisted the
simple and obvious solutions which would have been available, but for these
parties' refusal to cooperate in their realization.
The recent thread about system(); is very telling.
That doesn't tell me that the files exist.
Followed by the very explicit clarification that I had most of the files on
hand, and was willing to produce the ballance.
Uh, that's a pretty tiny part of the project you've outlined.
WTH are you talking about? As regards the files in question, I rather
clearly described a possible means of producing them by copying the entire
section of the Standard pertaining to a given Header, into a text buffer,
and deleting all portions which did not directly represent the declarations
and definitions specified for the given header. What I actually produced
goes beyond what I had originally suggested.
Got that. And you still don't understand how far you have to go
to produce a document that's not dangerously misleading.
How can this be so dangerously misleading if it basically reproduces the
same material presented in the body of the Standard with a few (clearly
commented) modifications to make it parse correctly. I sense that what you
find dangerous is not that the product might _mis_lead, you fear that it
might lead effectively.
Good luck.
Sigh. You began your very first posting on that thread with the words:
: I find the Standard document difficult to use as a reference.
: I understand that is not the primary goal of the document,
: but I see no reason that it could not serve that purpose better
: than it does.
And you ended it with:
: It seems reasonable to me that the Standard Committee would make
: the standard header declarations available in the form that they
: are presented in the Standard, but as separate files holding
: nothing but the header declarations, and references back to the
: relevant text in the Standard.
And I have since resolved that it would be a waste of my time to persue the
objective. Not because it's not a good idea, I'm more convinced than ever
that it /is/ a good idea. It's just that I see no way of communicating
what to me is obvious to people who just don't get it.