IT Java jobs (kind of light/sarcastic humor) :-)

Discussion in 'Java' started by Joona I Palaste, Jul 20, 2003.

  1. tk <> scribbled the following:
    > Light humor here. Not complaining :)


    > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and 3.5
    > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need not
    > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    > really a career?


    (Snip)

    Luckily not all companies are like that. I got my first job with no
    experience whatsoever, save for a few University exercises. I got my
    second job with 2.5 years' experience, but only in Java in general, not
    with <insert buzzword beginning with "J" here>.

    --
    /-- Joona Palaste () ---------------------------\
    | Kingpriest of "The Flying Lemon Tree" G++ FR FW+ M- #108 D+ ADA N+++|
    | http://www.helsinki.fi/~palaste W++ B OP+ |
    \----------------------------------------- Finland rules! ------------/
    "A bicycle cannot stand up by itself because it's two-tyred."
    - Sky Text
     
    Joona I Palaste, Jul 20, 2003
    #1
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  2. Joona I Palaste

    Rob Guest

    On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 15:03:17 -0600, tk wrote:
    > Light humor here. Not complaining :)


    I am :)

    > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and 3.5
    > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need not
    > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    > really a career?


    No - I don't think I have ever seen a job posting for "Wanted: IT
    Professional". This is probably because most of the "higher ups" have no
    idea what they are doing most of the time. They are deathly afraid to hire
    someone who has vast general knowledge of computers and how to solve real
    problems (as they could then likely take their job), but would instead
    like to hire "A JSP programmer with 3 years experience and little drive to
    learn"

    > I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
    > particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help you
    > migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an IT
    > career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks? :)


    If by "float" you mean know somebody who will talk to their friend in HR,
    or you just so happen to have gone to MIT - then yes, that is still what
    it is.

    > If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after roadblock on
    > IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then there
    > really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
    > pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid" experience in
    > other areas that you'd like to get more into :)


    We are becoming fast food workers -
    "who's on fryer today?"
    "the new 'Swing' guy."

    > Java is Java. Swing is just a framework in Java. EJB is another
    > specification/framework in Java. Same with RMI. Same with Struts, etc...
    > What's the big deal/hangup/concern with companies bringing in an experienced
    > Java professional who has experience in many other areas but not much in a
    > certain area *other* than the fact that the company expresses no
    > desire/vested "long-term" interest in the applicant and has mainly
    > "short-term" intentions for the applicant and only plans to utilize what
    > they currently know without any interest in allowing them to grow in other
    > areas which may help the company :)


    Try to explain that to Betty in HR. She is the one doing the hiring and
    has no idea how not to reply to all.

    > If I turn on the TV and see another ITT tech commercial advertising "An
    > exciting IT career", I'll throw up :) These days, careers no longer exist
    > in IT. They now come across as just jobs and most companies have
    > short-term visions/plans for their IT developers :) And presenting your
    > desire/capacity to grow in other areas with many companies seems to cause
    > great, great concern for them as it's not in their best interest (dollar
    > wise) to allow you the opportunity to grow in other areas :) I guess
    > this is, what my friend said, "the game of IT" :)


    If I hear "skill set" one more time I will join you in that puke.

    I was under the impression for a long time that companies cared
    about their products and projects. However, as I get older, I find that
    most don't give a rip about what they are doing. Just so long as they have
    something to give to marketing (so they can make pretty banners, and false
    claims) and the CxOs makes their $. Companies that actually want to create
    cool, inventive, well designed products are few - and the ones that do
    will only talk to you if:

    1) you know someone
    2) you have an advanced degree from nose-in-the-air University and 750
    years of experience

    > Oh how I long for the days where you would get hired on what you know (from
    > work and education) and be allowed to grow in other techonological areas.
    > Now it's like, "if you don't have this product experience, don't bother us"
    > :) Or- "We're only interested in hiring you for a particular thing you've
    > worked on and we have no intention of letting you learn anything new as
    > we'll just hire another contractor who knows that piece to do just that".
    >
    > IT careers... Gotta Love 'em. No wonder so many IT folks are in the
    > process of career changes :)


    <sigh>
    True. I think I am going to go back to school and become an archaeologist
    like Indiana Jones

    Cheers,
    Rob
     
    Rob, Jul 20, 2003
    #2
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  3. Joona I Palaste

    tk Guest

    Light humor here. Not complaining :)

    Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and 3.5
    years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need not
    apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    really a career?

    I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
    particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help you
    migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an IT
    career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks? :)

    If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after roadblock on
    IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then there
    really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
    pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid" experience in
    other areas that you'd like to get more into :)

    "IT careers", I guess, are basically concepts of yesteryear :) Now,
    they're just "computer jobs" with the intent of utilize what you already
    know without the intent of allowing you to grow further down different
    technological realms :)

    Java is Java. Swing is just a framework in Java. EJB is another
    specification/framework in Java. Same with RMI. Same with Struts, etc...
    What's the big deal/hangup/concern with companies bringing in an experienced
    Java professional who has experience in many other areas but not much in a
    certain area *other* than the fact that the company expresses no
    desire/vested "long-term" interest in the applicant and has mainly
    "short-term" intentions for the applicant and only plans to utilize what
    they currently know without any interest in allowing them to grow in other
    areas which may help the company :)

    If I turn on the TV and see another ITT tech commercial advertising "An
    exciting IT career", I'll throw up :) These days, careers no longer exist
    in IT. They now come across as just jobs and most companies have
    short-term visions/plans for their IT developers :) And presenting your
    desire/capacity to grow in other areas with many companies seems to cause
    great, great concern for them as it's not in their best interest (dollar
    wise) to allow you the opportunity to grow in other areas :) I guess
    this is, what my friend said, "the game of IT" :)

    Oh how I long for the days where you would get hired on what you know (from
    work and education) and be allowed to grow in other techonological areas.
    Now it's like, "if you don't have this product experience, don't bother us"
    :) Or- "We're only interested in hiring you for a particular thing you've
    worked on and we have no intention of letting you learn anything new as
    we'll just hire another contractor who knows that piece to do just that".

    IT careers... Gotta Love 'em. No wonder so many IT folks are in the
    process of career changes :)
    :)
     
    tk, Jul 20, 2003
    #3
  4. Joona I Palaste

    Sudsy Guest

    tk wrote:
    > Light humor here. Not complaining :)
    >
    > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and 3.5
    > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need not
    > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    > really a career?
    >
    > I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
    > particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help you
    > migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an IT
    > career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks? :)
    >
    > If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after roadblock on
    > IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then there
    > really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
    > pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid" experience in
    > other areas that you'd like to get more into :)
    >
    > "IT careers", I guess, are basically concepts of yesteryear :) Now,
    > they're just "computer jobs" with the intent of utilize what you already
    > know without the intent of allowing you to grow further down different
    > technological realms :)


    You make some good points, ones which are lost on the HR department
    which is typically tasked with culling the huge piles of resumes
    likely to appear after the rare job posting.
    The "best" developers I've ever met have an innate curiousity. They
    love to solve problems amd some of the solutions they arrive at are
    incredibly elegant. You look at their code and sit in awe.
    THAT'S what employers should be looking for, people who can get the
    job done no matter what challenge you throw their way. Learn C++ in
    the course of a weekend? Been there, done that (only the essentials,
    natch).
    But as long as the HR department feels that finding good people is
    simply a matter of filling out a form and requiring X years of this
    and Y years of that, employers are going to be disappointed.
    What galls me is that the current structure doesn't give the hirer
    the chance to even review those resumes which don't meet listed
    requirements. And you can forget about receiving an aknowlegement
    letter or e-mail these days.
    Ah well, maybe a career as a MIG welder...yeah, that's the ticket!
     
    Sudsy, Jul 20, 2003
    #4
  5. Joona I Palaste

    Brad BARCLAY Guest

    tk wrote:
    > Light humor here. Not complaining :)
    >
    > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and 3.5
    > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need not
    > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    > really a career?


    Not one I'm particularily happy with.

    Part of the problem is that all of these private IT schools that grant
    diplomas are cranking out people trained to work in specific
    technologies. Many IT companies these days don't want to hire people
    who can think -- they want to hire people who do what they ask for,
    without any concern for wether or not the end product is elegant or
    maintainable.

    I've long shunned the titles of "programmer" and "software engineer"
    for just these reasons. These titles have bene completely watered down
    to the point where they're almost meaningless. I'm a computer
    _scientist_. But today, most companies don't want such people. They
    just want someone they can use and abuse for a few years, and then get
    rid of when the "next big thing" comes along.

    Personally, I'm leaving the computer industry as soon as possible. The
    great thing about being a computer _scientist_ is that all you really
    need to work on your passion is a computer. I can do this in my own
    time, working on much more interesting projects with a whole lot more
    potential than what is currently available, write and have papers
    published, work on Open Source projects, speak at conferences, etc. I
    have better ways of putting food on the table and money in my pocket
    than being treated like crap as most of us are in the corporate IT field.

    Brad BARCLAY

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
    The jSyncManager Project: http://www.jsyncmanager.org
     
    Brad BARCLAY, Jul 21, 2003
    #5
  6. Joona I Palaste

    ghl Guest

    "Brad BARCLAY" <> wrote in message
    news:jqGSa.5625$%...
    > tk wrote:
    > > Light humor here. Not complaining :)
    > >
    > > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and

    3.5
    > > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need

    not
    > > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    > > really a career?

    What are you going to do with an ad like this?
    "Qualified candidates must have a bachelors degree in Engineering; 5 yrs
    industry exp; 1-3 yrs exp in Documentum technologies, knowledge of the
    following technologies is a must - java, web technologies, C++, C, Microsoft
    Visual C++, ODBC, OLEDB, ADO, java foundation classes, SQL, SQL Plus,
    ORACLE, Microsoft SQL Server, UNIX, solaris, HP Unix programming/scripting,
    Linux, windows API programming, weblogic, documentum webtop, documentum wdk
    4, DCM suite of products, RightSite, XML, XSLT, Xpath, JDOM."

    Okay, some of us have worked in a lot of different technologies. I look at a
    list like this and just skip it. Anyone this unreasonable probably will be
    impossible to work for. With the economy as bad as it is in IT I guess they
    feel they will get what they want.
    --
    Gary
     
    ghl, Jul 21, 2003
    #6
  7. Joona I Palaste

    Brad BARCLAY Guest

    ghl wrote:

    > What are you going to do with an ad like this?
    > "Qualified candidates must have a bachelors degree in Engineering; 5 yrs
    > industry exp; 1-3 yrs exp in Documentum technologies, knowledge of the
    > following technologies is a must - java, web technologies, C++, C, Microsoft
    > Visual C++, ODBC, OLEDB, ADO, java foundation classes, SQL, SQL Plus,
    > ORACLE, Microsoft SQL Server, UNIX, solaris, HP Unix programming/scripting,
    > Linux, windows API programming, weblogic, documentum webtop, documentum wdk
    > 4, DCM suite of products, RightSite, XML, XSLT, Xpath, JDOM."
    >
    > Okay, some of us have worked in a lot of different technologies. I look at a
    > list like this and just skip it. Anyone this unreasonable probably will be
    > impossible to work for. With the economy as bad as it is in IT I guess they
    > feel they will get what they want.


    Yup -- it looks like what they really want is one person to do the job
    of about 4 people. What they probably don't list is that they expect
    you to work 60 - 80 hour weeks, with no opportunity for advancement :).

    Brad BARCLAY

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
    The jSyncManager Project: http://www.jsyncmanager.org
    
     
    Brad BARCLAY, Jul 21, 2003
    #7
  8. Joona I Palaste

    tk Guest

    > We are becoming fast food workers -
    > "who's on fryer today?"
    > "the new 'Swing' guy."


    Crank it out. Slam and Hack!!! Lift that barge!!! Tote that bail!!!
    It's a manufacturing line. A 2003 version of the silent film classic
    "Metropolis". We all march in cadence to our desk. We login at the same
    time. We read email at the same time. We all type in cadence. We all run
    ant at the same time. We all run JUnit at the same time. We log out at
    the same time. We all march out of the office in cadence at the same time
    staring blindly ahead with no expression/emotion. We're not allowed to
    think. We're not allowed to grow. We're forbidden to move from one
    technology to the next unless "he" commands it :) We're not thinkers.
    We're robots :)

    > Try to explain that to Betty in HR. She is the one doing the hiring and
    > has no idea how not to reply to all.


    Kind of funny. In my last job, I had JSP, Struts, Servlets, etc.. on my
    resume. The headhunter said, that's all fine and dandy but do you have
    experience in the J2EE programming language? How many lines of J2EE did
    you code? And what type of J2EE was it? What editor did you use to
    program the J2EE code?

    > > this is, what my friend said, "the game of IT" :)

    >
    > If I hear "skill set" one more time I will join you in that puke.


    Sorry but most employers require 2.5 years "paid" experience of puking
    before it's considered to be a valid puke.
    If you do not have 2.5 years "paid" experience (you must furnish proof in
    the form of paystubs) of puking, you need not bother to
    join in the puke as your puke won't count as valid puke. Any puking you did
    on your own time will not count as valid puking
    experience.

    > True. I think I am going to go back to school and become an archaeologist
    > like Indiana Jones


    Hang tight. If you're willing to swallow your pride, there will be alot of
    COBOL code to convert over -or- to maintain. The big-time COBOL
    programmers are now in their mid-late 50's and will soon be retiring.
    Somebody's got to maintain it or convert it over.

    Since most employers don't allow us to have a career anymore (and want us to
    remain in a "needle-nose" line-of-control denoted by a specific specialty
    that we already have, IT has become a blue collar job :)
     
    tk, Jul 21, 2003
    #8
  9. Joona I Palaste

    Richard Guest

    wrote...

    > Yup -- it looks like what they really want is one person to do the job
    > of about 4 people. What they probably don't list is that they expect
    > you to work 60 - 80 hour weeks, with no opportunity for advancement :).


    As an interesting aside, a number of technical managers I know in
    financial services (NYC) have taken the economic downturn in this
    hard-hit market segment to (1) retain only the very best programmers
    and (2) exact some payback for programmers being such spoiled and
    fickle beasts in the late 90s. It's even back to formal attire in a
    few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
    like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
    love to have a job.

    --
    For email, put NOT SPAM in Subject or I'll probably miss it.
    <><
     
    Richard, Jul 21, 2003
    #9
  10. Joona I Palaste

    tk Guest

    > potential than what is currently available, write and have papers
    > published, work on Open Source projects, speak at conferences, etc. I
    > have better ways of putting food on the table and money in my pocket
    > than being treated like crap as most of us are in the corporate IT field.


    I admire/respect you for your reply! Well said and nothing but the best of
    luck!!

    I was thinking about going back (I'm 37 now) and getting a Masters in either
    computer science or CIS.
    I only have a BS but have taken a few computer related courses since.

    I think I may just take "general-ed" courses in college and focus on getting
    a Math degree. Since what you
    learn in college for computers generally becomes outdated in a matter of a
    few short years, Math is something
    that never gets outdated and can be applied to many different types of
    disciplines. For any new computer-related
    stuff, I'll just download it and learn it on my own time. Besides,
    companies don't consider college learning to be
    valid either so taking a computer course may be more of a waste of time
    than taking some general ed courses(ie, 200
    and 300 level Math courses) which you can actually carry over if you are
    "forced" into making a career change :)

    Besides a few headhunters told me that an MS or BS in computer science does
    not mean much anymore to them and
    alot of companies and that "us IT programmers are a dime per 6-dozen".
    Pretty bold for them to say. An aquaintence
    I know has been out of work for 5 months. He is super smart, has a PHD.
    He cannot
    get into teaching because he does not have experience. He is finding it
    extremely difficult to get back into IT and just
    recently got accepted for an interview for an IT job which he will be so
    bored with (mostly documentation) and will be falling asleep
    at but he needs the money :)

    The other thing, since companies are posting rediculous requirements/demands
    for jobs:
    - Many IT folks (out of work) "can" learn all of what is required but won't
    be allowed to since they won't be considered.
    Therefore, there comes a time when someone in IT has been out of work for
    too long (because companies have slammed the
    door on them because they may not have 1.5 years of this) and just gives
    up and finds an unrelated field to work in.
    - Many IT folks are "dissuaded" in *wanting* to learn new things. Heck,
    they may feel, "Why should I bother and learn
    XYZ at home on my own time?". No company is going to bother to hire me
    for it because they won't consider that as
    valid experience. It'll just be a waste of time to do it". SO what
    happens is many programmers become "demotivated" to learn
    more on their own because they figure no company is going to consider that
    useful/valid. Well... Regardless, I'm figuring out JBoss
    and having alot of fun with it and if no company thinks that's valid, then
    so be it :)
     
    tk, Jul 21, 2003
    #10
  11. Joona I Palaste

    tk Guest

    > What are you going to do with an ad like this?
    > "Qualified candidates must have a bachelors degree in Engineering; 5 yrs
    > industry exp; 1-3 yrs exp in Documentum technologies, knowledge of the
    > following technologies is a must - java, web technologies, C++, C,

    Microsoft
    > Visual C++, ODBC, OLEDB, ADO, java foundation classes, SQL, SQL Plus,
    > ORACLE, Microsoft SQL Server, UNIX, solaris, HP Unix

    programming/scripting,
    > Linux, windows API programming, weblogic, documentum webtop, documentum

    wdk
    > 4, DCM suite of products, RightSite, XML, XSLT, Xpath, JDOM."
    >
    > Okay, some of us have worked in a lot of different technologies. I look at

    a
    > list like this and just skip it. Anyone this unreasonable probably will be
    > impossible to work for. With the economy as bad as it is in IT I guess

    they
    > feel they will get what they want.


    You bring up another interesting point!!!

    For those that 'DO' have alot of technologies under their belt, that would
    mean (in many cases) that they're job-hoppers
    (unless they work for consulting firms and were lucky enough to bounce from
    contract to contract doing all different types of technologies).
    I thought that most employers don't like job-hoppers and would rather have
    someone who will remain loyal to the company. Problem is that
    the loyal programmers usually tend to work in 1-2 specific areas within the
    company (and get really good at it) but they don't
    have the hundreds of products under their belt that a job-hopper who works 3
    months here, 6 months there, 5 months there, etc..
    may have...

    It's a double-edge sword. A super-smart lady that I know was laid off from
    a job a few months back. She was a VC++ guru
    with SQL server knowledge and worked on a VERY COMPLEX system for over 6
    years. She stayed with the same company
    and did one hell of a great job with them (ie, from table design to query
    optimizations to crystal-report programming with C++
    to MFC GUIS to you name it). Unfortunately, they laid her off and she went
    into a job market where requirements like the one
    you mentioned are commonplace. Thank God in heaven she was able to find
    another job recently but she was out of work for a while.
    So I guess all of that loyalty she showed for the company (staying with then
    between 1998 to the present when she could have easily
    gotten some cool Java jobs back in 1999-2000 when they were hiring C++
    coders to do Java) did not mean squat to the other
    companies that passed her over. She happened to know someone at her new
    employer (who knows just how good/smart she
    is) so she was able to get an interview as a result and get hired.

    Back to the add:
    > "Qualified candidates must have a bachelors degree in Engineering; 5 yrs
    > industry exp; 1-3 yrs exp in Documentum technologies, knowledge of the
    > following technologies is a must - java, web technologies, C++, C,

    Microsoft
    > Visual C++, ODBC, OLEDB, ADO, java foundation classes, SQL, SQL Plus,
    > ORACLE, Microsoft SQL Server, UNIX, solaris, HP Unix

    programming/scripting,
    > Linux, windows API programming, weblogic, documentum webtop, documentum

    wdk
    > 4, DCM suite of products, RightSite, XML, XSLT, Xpath, JDOM."


    How often will it be that 'ONE' company -or- even 'TWO' companies will let
    you do all of the above !!??!! You have to be a big time job hopper to rack
    up that kind of experience in most cases!! And companies don't like job
    hoppers as much as they don't like people who have stayed at a company for a
    long time and became good at the 1-3 technologies that they were using!!!

    Yeah, back in 2001, I could have left my job (as a Java developer) to get
    into a C#/.NET position (as they were training Java folks back then) but I
    wanted to remain loyal to my company. Did not matter much though as we got
    laid off 7 months later :) Now I don't have the C#/.NET experience (even
    though I worked with VC++ and the win32 API for a few years) and no company
    will even consider glancing at my resume for a C#/.NET position :) So I'm
    (not a bad thing though) stuck in Java because the IT industry is the way it
    is.
     
    tk, Jul 21, 2003
    #11
  12. Joona I Palaste

    Adam Maass Guest

    "Sudsy" <> wrote:
    > tk wrote:
    > > Light humor here. Not complaining :)
    > >
    > > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and

    3.5
    > > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need

    not
    > > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
    > > really a career?
    > >
    > > I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
    > > particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help you
    > > migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an IT
    > > career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks?

    :)
    > >
    > > If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after roadblock

    on
    > > IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then

    there
    > > really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
    > > pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid" experience

    in
    > > other areas that you'd like to get more into :)
    > >
    > > "IT careers", I guess, are basically concepts of yesteryear :) Now,
    > > they're just "computer jobs" with the intent of utilize what you already
    > > know without the intent of allowing you to grow further down different
    > > technological realms :)

    >
    > You make some good points, ones which are lost on the HR department
    > which is typically tasked with culling the huge piles of resumes
    > likely to appear after the rare job posting.
    > The "best" developers I've ever met have an innate curiousity. They
    > love to solve problems amd some of the solutions they arrive at are
    > incredibly elegant. You look at their code and sit in awe.
    > THAT'S what employers should be looking for, people who can get the
    > job done no matter what challenge you throw their way. Learn C++ in
    > the course of a weekend? Been there, done that (only the essentials,
    > natch).
    > But as long as the HR department feels that finding good people is
    > simply a matter of filling out a form and requiring X years of this
    > and Y years of that, employers are going to be disappointed.
    > What galls me is that the current structure doesn't give the hirer
    > the chance to even review those resumes which don't meet listed
    > requirements. And you can forget about receiving an aknowlegement
    > letter or e-mail these days.
    > Ah well, maybe a career as a MIG welder...yeah, that's the ticket!
    >


    I wish the industry would start forming a professional organization for IT
    professionals -- akin to a professional Engineering organization. Put some
    real, widely recognized, certifications in place -- more about "how to think
    like a professional" than "what products do you know." It is galling that
    the recruitment process so often screens out people who could do the job --
    if only there were some flexiblity in the first few weeks or months to learn
    the particular technologies in use. That innate curiosity is one of the
    things that makes a good programmer, and is also oe of the things that is
    not measured by checking off boxes on a form.

    Building good, solid software systems that will stand the test of time is
    what most programmers want to do. But not all organizations share those
    goals: often the drive is completely feature-driven: we need it to do X, and
    we need it to do X now, and we don't care if it will take twice as long to
    make it do Y in the future as long as we get X as soon as we can. And then
    turning around and saying: we need it to do Y, and we need it to do Y now,
    and we don't care that the compromises to get X out the door makes doing Y
    hard. I have lived through a development environment where large revenue
    deals depended on Y and Z and on and on being delivered on a timely basis.
    The compromises for each release only made each subsequent promise harder to
    deliver. In this kind of environment, an instant understanding of the
    technology is assumed to help get the next feature out of the door all that
    much sooner. It's just unrealistic expectations piled one on top of another.
     
    Adam Maass, Jul 21, 2003
    #12
  13. Joona I Palaste

    Jon A. Cruz Guest

    tk wrote:
    > Thank God in heaven she was able to find
    > another job recently but she was out of work for a while.


    One rule of thumb here in the states is to expect to be out of work one
    month for each $10,000 in salary that you expect.


    > Now I don't have the C#/.NET experience (even
    > though I worked with VC++ and the win32 API for a few years) and no company
    > will even consider glancing at my resume for a C#/.NET position :)


    It depends. One thing I've found is that those are exactly the shops you
    want to try to stay away from.

    The good engineering departments understand talent is important, and
    will hire talented people that *could* do a job instead of just those
    who have things on their resume. Many of them even hire people as they
    become available so that they have them when projects start.

    Remember, be prepared to look for some time if you want to end up
    somewhere good.
     
    Jon A. Cruz, Jul 21, 2003
    #13
  14. Joona I Palaste

    tk Guest

    > and (2) exact some payback for programmers being such spoiled and fickle
    beasts in the late 90s

    Not all programmers were spoiled and fickle beasts in the late 90's. I
    know quite a few who were loyal to their employers
    who ended up suffering the most when the market "did" go bad. A friend of
    mine back in another state is one of the most
    loyal people to an employer that I know. She's a very smart C++/Java coder
    who passed up on alot of opportunities to excel
    in other technological areas because she wanted to remain loyal. Now she's
    suffering because alot of companies are passing
    her up for not having 1.5 years of this or 2 years of that (which should
    could have EASILY obtained had she been a spoiled
    and fickle beast)...

    > fickle beasts in the late 90s. It's even back to formal attire in a
    > few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
    > like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
    > love to have a job.


    Not speaking for myself here!!! Those are the kind of places that will
    suffer the most if/when the economy gets better. They ought
    to know that the folks that they're abusing will get up and leave them and
    find work elsewhere.

    You know, it did not really start with the developers. I got into IT in
    1988 when I finished college. Back in 1988, you just
    had mainly OS/2 coming out, Unix being popular and still alot of mainframes.
    Windows was not much of a factor.
    Still alot of COBOL jobs and C was pretty much the thing to be in. Then C++
    really started becoming adopted by companies
    around 1990-1991 and you started seeing alot of companies migrating current
    C apps to C++ around 1992-1993. Not really
    much for a programmer to be "picky" or "fickle" about so you really did not
    have programmers being fickle beasts then.
    The economy went bad in 1992 thru early 1995 and companies were placing the
    same rediculous requirements then on developers as they are now.
    That's when you had 1 year experience in VC++ version 1.5 required (it was
    not enough that you had worked with C++ in Borland's IDE using the Windows
    SDK. You had to have done in using the VC++ IDE) postings, etc...

    So really, employers are doing this again for the 2nd time in 10 years :)
    So it's not just the developers
    who may have been spoiled. It started out with the employers being spoiled
    followed by the developers being spoiled and now it's back to
    the employers being spoiled again :) You're right about the dress code.
    In my last job (before we got laid off), we were able to come in casuals for
    2 years and then it became apparent that we had to start wearing really nice
    clothes and could not have flexible hours anymore and had to start doing
    alot more paperwork.

    You know, I wish I were in my father's era (he worked for the same company
    for 37 years before retiring). Back in the days
    where companies actually cared about their employees and gave them the
    feeling of "belonging". Now it's, "you're lucky that we're even allowing
    you the chance to work for us".

    What I would not give to find an employer that does not instill fear of
    layoffs and terminations as a way of life to their employees :) I'd work
    for them forever and give them everything I have !!! Although even though
    I'm working for companies on contracts, I give them everything I have too!!!
    I just know though that there's no chance for career advancement at many of
    those places even though I will always give 110%!!!
     
    tk, Jul 21, 2003
    #14
  15. Joona I Palaste

    ghl Guest

    "Adam Maass" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "Sudsy" <> wrote:
    > > tk wrote:
    > > > Light humor here. Not complaining :)
    > > >
    > > > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and

    > 3.5
    > > > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need

    > not
    > > > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT

    is
    > > > really a career?
    > > >
    > > > I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
    > > > particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help

    you
    > > > migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an

    IT
    > > > career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks?

    > :)
    > > >
    > > > If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after

    roadblock
    > on
    > > > IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then

    > there
    > > > really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
    > > > pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid"

    experience
    > in
    > > > other areas that you'd like to get more into :)
    > > >
    > > > "IT careers", I guess, are basically concepts of yesteryear :)

    Now,
    > > > they're just "computer jobs" with the intent of utilize what you

    already
    > > > know without the intent of allowing you to grow further down different
    > > > technological realms :)


    The real problem is employers seem to think that if a person has experience
    (worked on) a given technology they are really capable of handling that
    technology completely. Given enough time working with Java one can get
    pretty good at Java, probably picking up a lot of classes and how to look
    things up. But if you didn't work on web development you might not have much
    background in servlets and jsp. But even if you did, you might not have had
    to work on installing and configuring Apache and Tomcat (or one of several
    other widely used web servers and containers). And even if you did, maybe
    you didn't work on a unix box, etc.
    The bosses have forgotten that what you want to hire is someone who can
    "muddle" through problems even if they don't know the technology! Tonight's
    story: I was just setting up a simple ActiveX component and a VB form to use
    it (yeah, I know, this is a Java site) for a possible course in August (a
    one day VBScript session) and I got a really strange error when I went to
    run it. Hey, you don't get System Error &H8004015 every day. It took me
    about 45 minutes to check it all out and find it was a missing element in a
    registry setting for the Winlogon key. (Just finding the right key took
    about 15 minutes on Knowledgebase. The error only applied to NT4.0, which
    I'm running.) The point is: I know how to fiddle around until I find out
    what is wrong and fix it. Not one employer ever asked me ANYTHING about the
    registry, whether I even know what it is or if I had ever worked on it. And
    believe me, I wouldn't want to tell them about it because the next thing you
    will find is HR putting in "Must know Windows registry inside and out" in
    all their "requirements." Face it: HR's job is to eliminate you from
    consideration before the actual boss gets to talk with you.
    I've been out of work since February, just working pick up days here and
    there, and all teaching jobs. I can hardly wait for the fall classes to
    begin. (Did I mention that I have been a programmer for 42 years and I think
    I know how by now?)
    --
    Gary
     
    ghl, Jul 21, 2003
    #15
  16. Joona I Palaste

    tk Guest

    > will find is HR putting in "Must know Windows registry inside and out" in
    > all their "requirements." Face it: HR's job is to eliminate you from
    > consideration before the actual boss gets to talk with you.


    Something's wrong with the business world when that mentality seems to be
    common place :) They want someone who
    knows it all, did it all *and* is willing to keep doing it all for pennies
    on the dollar until they're finished with you and then
    can let you go find someone else ;-P

    > I've been out of work since February, just working pick up days here and
    > there, and all teaching jobs. I can hardly wait for the fall classes to
    > begin. (Did I mention that I have been a programmer for 42 years and I

    think
    > I know how by now?)


    Another thing about the IT field. Because of the human resources
    requirements and just because it's "the way it is",
    the computer field is one of those fields where experience in terms of
    "time-in-the-field" does not mean much to the
    employers anymore (although it should!). Sadly, for a job doing XYZ,
    they're still going to pick a person fresh from school with maybe
    1 year of XYZ over a seasoned veteran like yourself who may not have had the
    chance to do XYZ (but you have
    had the chance to do hundreds of other things). I have 15 years IT in
    C++/Java but I don't even consider that
    competitive for an Oracle position (for example) as I have JDBC experience
    but never had the chance to do
    PL/SQL. Most employers consider experience in "outdated" technologies a
    total waste and not valid rather than
    accepting the fact that you were able to understand those technologies when
    they came out at the time.

    Another thing you rarely see in IT job requirements is a desire with someone
    who has knowledge in certain application
    domains (ie, manufacturing, retail, chemistry, health industry, etc..).
    Every company is so hung up on "product" or "api"
    experience that they overlook the fact that it's (in most cases) more
    difficult/challenging to understand the companies'
    domain then it is to do the coding. In my current job, I'm doing alot of
    presentation tier development in Swing. Ok, employers
    may not get excited and say (so what, you're just a dime per 100 dozen).
    But the application is an extremely complex 3-tier
    app and there is an awful lot of chemistry terms/knowledge needed and we
    take Swing to it's limits. The app is also driven by
    data (ie, app metadata) and makes use of most of the GoF design patterns.
    Most future employers don't care one bit about that.
    All they'll see is "JFC/Swing" and say, "Nah... He's just ANOTHER one of
    thousands doing swing. Toss that resume in the
    garbage immediately" :) But "when" they do hire you, they'll expect you to
    not have to spend much time getting up to speed in
    the domain :) It's another "overlooked" time-consuming responsibility
    for the developer.

    In most new jobs I start, I spent most of the time for the first month or
    two trying to understand the data models and relationships
    between tables and applications rather than trying to focus on what
    version5.1.2 of this particular language is doing(although the
    job requirement lists only "version5.1.2" required and says nothing about
    the application domain) :) It only takes a day to 3
    to figure out what "version 5.1.2" is doing but takes 1-3 months to
    understand the whole application.. Yet, 1.5 years of "version 5.1.2."
    required is listed on the requirements :)

    Gotta love it :)
     
    tk, Jul 21, 2003
    #16
  17. Joona I Palaste

    ghl Guest

    "Brad BARCLAY" <> wrote in message
    news:j9VSa.18363$...
    > tk wrote:
    > >>potential than what is currently available, write and have papers
    > >>published, work on Open Source projects, speak at conferences, etc. I
    > >>have better ways of putting food on the table and money in my pocket
    > >>than being treated like crap as most of us are in the corporate IT

    field.
    > >
    > >
    > > I admire/respect you for your reply! Well said and nothing but the

    best of
    > > luck!!

    >
    > Thank-you. I have an interview for my new career choice Wednesday, so
    > wish me luck :).
    >
    > I'm not exactly ready to talk publically about my new career choice
    > just yet, but once things are settled, I've been thinking about putting
    > up a website about it, and why I think students going into
    > college/university should stay away from IT careers, and steer
    > themsevles into something more worthwhile.


    I wish you wouldn't. I've already had two classes I teach cancelled out from
    under me due to low enrollment. I need more programmer wannabes in the
    college!
    --
    Gary
     
    ghl, Jul 21, 2003
    #17
  18. Joona I Palaste

    Ed Jensen Guest

    Richard <> wrote:
    : It's even back to formal attire in a
    : few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
    : like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
    : love to have a job.

    And the rational for the switch back to formal attire is...?

    -Ed
     
    Ed Jensen, Jul 21, 2003
    #18
  19. Joona I Palaste

    Brad BARCLAY Guest

    ghl wrote:

    >>I'm not exactly ready to talk publically about my new career choice
    >>just yet, but once things are settled, I've been thinking about putting
    >>up a website about it, and why I think students going into
    >>college/university should stay away from IT careers, and steer
    >>themsevles into something more worthwhile.

    >
    >
    > I wish you wouldn't. I've already had two classes I teach cancelled out from
    > under me due to low enrollment. I need more programmer wannabes in the
    > college!


    Well, I feel your pain there. My feeling is that most students
    shouldn't approch computer science with the desire of getting an IT-type
    job, but instead either with the intent of being a computer scientist
    (in academia or a research institute of some sort), or with the intent
    of having useful skills in a non-IT job.

    I wouldn't tell anyone to _not_ take Computer Science or programming
    courses, but just to do so for the right reasons. I went through
    university with all sorts of students in the mid 90's who were there "to
    get a job that pays lots of money", who didn't even know how to operate
    a mouse. Many of these people dropped out (typically switching
    programs), but I'm sure there are many out there who sufficiently scrape
    by to get into a thankless IT job (or to find that it's harder to get a
    job with their CS degree than it is to get one with a Philosophy degree,
    and get into some other career).

    Brad BARCLAY

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
    The jSyncManager Project: http://www.jsyncmanager.org
     
    Brad BARCLAY, Jul 21, 2003
    #19
  20. Joona I Palaste

    Jon A. Cruz Guest

    Ed Jensen wrote:
    > Richard <> wrote:
    > : It's even back to formal attire in a
    > : few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
    > : like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
    > : love to have a job.
    >
    > And the rational for the switch back to formal attire is...?
    >
    > -Ed


    Why, to beat programmers back into submission, as all lowly workers
    should be.
     
    Jon A. Cruz, Jul 22, 2003
    #20
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