Java Applets Revival? Back to SWING? Adieu, JavaScript?

Discussion in 'Java' started by RoboHobby, Oct 12, 2009.

  1. RoboHobby

    RoboHobby Guest

    Hi,

    We are working on Java hobby robotics project (http://
    www.RoboHobby.com - Java code examples,
    PIC programming, etc.).

    Recently, viewing my site statistics (I use Google Analytics) I found
    one interesting fact -
    majority of our users (85-92%) use Java!

    I found this information in section "Google Analitics/Visitors/Java
    support".
    And it was interesting and surprising - about 90% of users use Java.

    As you might remember, there was a long period, when Java was 'rear
    bird' on client's browsers.
    Many years I've heard that:
    -Nobody wants to download and install Java (JRE or plugin), because it
    is too huge.
    -Client's site Java is over.
    -Everybody uses JavaScript, forget your Java and your applets.
    JavaScript is already pre-installed in every browser, but your
    'favorite toy' - Java is too big for downloading.
    etc.

    And - yes, it was true - 92-99% of our site's users turned on
    JavaScript on their browsers.

    I hate JavaScript. I know, it is the meter of taste, but I like Java,
    not JavaScript and I suppose SWING is one of the best GUI, I've ever
    seen during last 20 years.

    Under pressure of the market we started to use GWT (Google Web Toolkit
    - Java-to-JavaScript converter) as a client front end instead of good-
    old SWING in applets.
    (http://www.RoboHobby.com/web_remote_control_for_robotics_gwt.jsp)

    And what I see now(!) - big percent of our users use Java too!

    QUESTION - Is it time to forget about JavaScript and go back to SWING?
    May be new wide channels - DSL, etc, changed the Wolrd and now it is
    not a problem to install Java and we can go back to applets?

    What do you think?

    PS: Today's Connection Speed statistic from my site:

    Unknown=45.41%
    DSL= 27.36%
    Cable= 16.44%
    T1= 7.91%
    Dialup= 2.70%

    As you see only 2.7 % of users use low speed connection.
    That means file size of JRE is not the problem now.

    Sincerely, Oleg
     
    RoboHobby, Oct 12, 2009
    #1
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  2. RoboHobby

    Arne Vajhøj Guest

    RoboHobby wrote:
    > We are working on Java hobby robotics project (http://
    > www.RoboHobby.com - Java code examples,
    > PIC programming, etc.).
    >
    > Recently, viewing my site statistics (I use Google Analytics) I found
    > one interesting fact -
    > majority of our users (85-92%) use Java!
    >
    > I found this information in section "Google Analitics/Visitors/Java
    > support".
    > And it was interesting and surprising - about 90% of users use Java.
    >
    > As you might remember, there was a long period, when Java was 'rear
    > bird' on client's browsers.
    > Many years I've heard that:
    > -Nobody wants to download and install Java (JRE or plugin), because it
    > is too huge.
    > -Client's site Java is over.
    > -Everybody uses JavaScript, forget your Java and your applets.
    > JavaScript is already pre-installed in every browser, but your
    > 'favorite toy' - Java is too big for downloading.
    > etc.
    >
    > And - yes, it was true - 92-99% of our site's users turned on
    > JavaScript on their browsers.
    >
    > I hate JavaScript. I know, it is the meter of taste, but I like Java,
    > not JavaScript and I suppose SWING is one of the best GUI, I've ever
    > seen during last 20 years.
    >
    > Under pressure of the market we started to use GWT (Google Web Toolkit
    > - Java-to-JavaScript converter) as a client front end instead of good-
    > old SWING in applets.
    > (http://www.RoboHobby.com/web_remote_control_for_robotics_gwt.jsp)
    >
    > And what I see now(!) - big percent of our users use Java too!
    >
    > QUESTION - Is it time to forget about JavaScript and go back to SWING?
    > May be new wide channels - DSL, etc, changed the Wolrd and now it is
    > not a problem to install Java and we can go back to applets?
    >
    > What do you think?
    >
    > PS: Today's Connection Speed statistic from my site:
    >
    > Unknown=45.41%
    > DSL= 27.36%
    > Cable= 16.44%
    > T1= 7.91%
    > Dialup= 2.70%
    >
    > As you see only 2.7 % of users use low speed connection.
    > That means file size of JRE is not the problem now.


    Applets (especially with JavaFX) is a relevant option if you
    need the functionality and like the language.

    The questions are:
    - can you live with 100% - 85-92% of your users (8-15%) having
    a problem
    - they have Java but what version, Java is not always being
    kept uptodate

    JavaScript and Flash/Flex are dominating the industry. But if you
    like applets, then you can use it.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Oct 12, 2009
    #2
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  3. RoboHobby

    Rzeźnik Guest

    On 12 Paź, 20:36, RoboHobby <> wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > We are working on Java hobby robotics project (http://www.RoboHobby.com- Java code examples,
    > PIC programming, etc.).
    >
    > Recently, viewing my site statistics (I use Google Analytics)  I found
    > one interesting fact -
    > majority of our users (85-92%) use Java!
    >


    Perhaps that's because you have the Java project there so typical
    visitor is interested in Java which causes him to install Java on his
    machine consciously.


    > QUESTION - Is it time to forget about JavaScript and go back to SWING?
    > May be new wide channels - DSL, etc, changed the Wolrd and now it is
    > not a problem to install Java and we can go back to applets?
    >
    > What do you think?


    I do not think so given considerable effort the browser vendors make
    in promoting Java Script. Also the code base is enormous. But there is
    a observable shift from using 'naked' JavaScript to framework oriented
    programming (GWT/jQuery) which makes programming JS more pleasant. I
    am not sure, I do not like JS. As a language it is very nice post-OO
    language but all theses browser-related idiosyncrasies are killing me.

    >
    > PS: Today's Connection Speed statistic from my site:
    >
    > Unknown=45.41%
    > DSL=    27.36%
    > Cable=    16.44%
    > T1=    7.91%
    > Dialup=    2.70%
    >
    > As you see only 2.7 % of users use low speed connection.
    > That means file size of JRE is not the problem now.
    >


    The bigger problem in my opinion is that applet experience is not so
    seamless (Java FX might be in position to change it), also Java
    gadgets are still considerable heavy when compared to most of JS code,
    net-book market may be lost.
     
    Rzeźnik, Oct 12, 2009
    #3
  4. Rzeźnik wrote:
    > also Java
    > gadgets are still considerable heavy when compared to most of JS code,
    > net-book market may be lost.


    Java applets was pretty heavy 10 years ago. Unless it is a king
    kong applet, then it should not be a problem on modern hardware
    net-books included.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Oct 12, 2009
    #4
  5. RoboHobby

    Rzeźnik Guest

    On 12 Paź, 21:53, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    > Rzeźnik wrote:
    > >                                                            also Java
    > > gadgets are still considerable heavy when compared to most of JS code,
    > > net-book market may be lost.

    >
    > Java applets was pretty heavy 10 years ago. Unless it is a king
    > kong applet, then it should not be a problem on modern hardware
    > net-books included.
    >
    > Arne


    I wrote "heavy when compared to most of JS code" and I meant also
    startup time
     
    Rzeźnik, Oct 12, 2009
    #5
  6. Rzeźnik wrote:
    > On 12 Paź, 21:53, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    >> Rzeźnik wrote:
    >>> also Java
    >>> gadgets are still considerable heavy when compared to most of JS code,
    >>> net-book market may be lost.

    >> Java applets was pretty heavy 10 years ago. Unless it is a king
    >> kong applet, then it should not be a problem on modern hardware
    >> net-books included.

    >
    > I wrote "heavy when compared to most of JS code" and I meant also
    > startup time


    Users don't think in relative performance - they think in
    absolute performance. 10 seconds is unacceptable slower
    than 1 second. 100 milliseconds is the same user experience
    as 10 milliseconds.

    Arne
     
    Arne Vajhøj, Oct 12, 2009
    #6
  7. RoboHobby

    Rzeźnik Guest

    On 12 Paź, 22:34, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    > Rzeźnik wrote:
    > > On 12 Paź, 21:53, Arne Vajhøj <> wrote:
    > >> Rzeźnik wrote:
    > >>>                                                            also Java
    > >>> gadgets are still considerable heavy when compared to most of JS code,
    > >>> net-book market may be lost.
    > >> Java applets was pretty heavy 10 years ago. Unless it is a king
    > >> kong applet, then it should not be a problem on modern hardware
    > >> net-books included.

    >
    > > I wrote "heavy when compared to most of JS code" and I meant also
    > > startup time

    >
    > Users don't think in relative performance - they think in
    > absolute performance. 10 seconds is unacceptable slower
    > than 1 second. 100 milliseconds is the same user experience
    > as 10 milliseconds.
    >
    > Arne


    Yes, so basically JS bells and whistles for users have 0 time startup
    and java applets >noticeable_time :)
     
    Rzeźnik, Oct 12, 2009
    #7
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