Java & LAMP - being better or being popular ?

[heather.fraser]

I've invested many years into Java. I do not regret it - knowing
Java has opened up so many more jobs and opportunities for me. We
wouldn't dream of using anything else for enterprise middleware.

However, on the website development front, you look at websites like
flickr and the extensive contributions behind the Joomla, Drupal &
Wordpress projects and think "maybe being best isn't as important as
being popular?".

My company develop websites with Linux (of FreeBSD), Apache (+
Tomcat), MySQL & Java. However, the open source CMS and blog tools
available just aren't as good as Wordpress & Joomla. Several times
we have found ourselves asking "should we add PHP to our repertoire?"
but each time deciding that it's better to stick with the language we
know already.

It seems ironic that the open-source community follow LAMP but yet the
Apache Jakarta group have standardized on Java.

There's no question to this post really. Am just feeling a bit
insecure (though I suspect I would feel more insecure if I only knew
PHP and not Java) and looking for some advice.

Heather

 

[Roedy Green]

There's no question to this post really. Am just feeling a bit
insecure (though I suspect I would feel more insecure if I only knew
PHP and not Java) and looking for some advice.

The question you have to ask is which is actually better, the end
product or the tool. I think you will find the tool is revoltingly
ugly, though people who use it manage to create some very nice things.

You will also note that forum software very commonly written in PHP is
extremely buggy. This does not matter who writes it.

 

[mich]

I've invested many years into Java. I do not regret it - knowing
Java has opened up so many more jobs and opportunities for me. We
wouldn't dream of using anything else for enterprise middleware.

However, on the website development front, you look at websites like
flickr and the extensive contributions behind the Joomla, Drupal &
Wordpress projects and think "maybe being best isn't as important as
being popular?".

My company develop websites with Linux (of FreeBSD), Apache (+
Tomcat), MySQL & Java. However, the open source CMS and blog tools
available just aren't as good as Wordpress & Joomla. Several times
we have found ourselves asking "should we add PHP to our repertoire?"
but each time deciding that it's better to stick with the language we
know already.

It seems ironic that the open-source community follow LAMP but yet the
Apache Jakarta group have standardized on Java.

There's no question to this post really. Am just feeling a bit
insecure (though I suspect I would feel more insecure if I only knew
PHP and not Java) and looking for some advice.

Heather

Heather, often a comment is better than a question; it leaves room for
others to add their own comments. I started working in IT in 1982 with COBOL
and PL/1 on mainframes on flat files. And frankly, I regret being in IT. I
keep hearing how people should always acquire new skills and stay current,
but that's a lot easier said than done. IT is the only field I know where
experience and honesty is a negative. It's easier and cheaper to hire some
college grad than to tell a high-paid senior developer to start learning
whatever-is-new-and-hot.

Have you seen many 50-year-old developers?

When I started learning PL/1 at my first job one very bright senior person
commented that it took 4 years to really become skilled. Now I see people
who will claim to know Java, C++, C# , PHP, . has the human race suddenly
evolved a vast supply of super geniuses?

That said, your best bet is to ocasionally learn a new skill but don't feel
pressure to try and learn everything and everything. Make sure that you give
your customers good value for their money, not fancy bells and whistles.

 

[Patricia Shanahan]

Heather, often a comment is better than a question; it leaves room for
others to add their own comments. I started working in IT in 1982 with COBOL
and PL/1 on mainframes on flat files. And frankly, I regret being in IT. I
keep hearing how people should always acquire new skills and stay current,
but that's a lot easier said than done. IT is the only field I know where
experience and honesty is a negative. It's easier and cheaper to hire some
college grad than to tell a high-paid senior developer to start learning
whatever-is-new-and-hot.

Have you seen many 50-year-old developers?

Although I'm now a 58-year-old Ph.D. student, 8 years ago I was working
for Sun Microsystems as a large server platform architect. I worked
continuously in programming or hardware architecture from 1970 to 2002.

I believe my durability as a developer was very closely related to
continuous self-education, including learning several programming languages.

Patricia

 

[Lew]

Have you seen many 50-year-old developers?

Isn't that a matter of people advancing to management positions? You seem to
think that a) there aren't many 50-year-old developers, and b) that this is
due to the difficulty of learning new technology. Is that your argument,
because there's little evidence that those points are correct.

In markets where there is an active I.T. demand, there is also a significant
demand for senior developers. The competition is fierce, because to be
considered a "senior" developer you actually have to know a thing or two. The
youngsters can get by fraudulently representing themselves as knowledgeable,
and get away with it because there isn't the same expectation of expertise.

I have seen plenty of older developers. One of my mentors when I first got
out of college was an eighty-plus-year-old developer. He had to have been in
his sixties when he started as a programmer! Where I work there are many,
many older developers, probably because the applications are large, complex
and require great expertise. There are relatively few "junior" developers
there. If you used my workplace as a sample, you'd think the marketplace was
drying up for newbies.

Of course, my anecdotal evidence has no more statistical significance than
your unfounded rhetorical question.

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=]

Have you seen many 50-year-old developers?

There exist a few.

But note that:
- 50 year old developers started around 1980 or so and there were much
fewer in IT back then or put another way: the growth in the IT the
last 25 years makes the average developer younger
- a lot of those 50 year olds in the business that started as developers
are now managers of all kinds

When I started learning PL/1 at my first job one very bright senior person
commented that it took 4 years to really become skilled. Now I see people
who will claim to know Java, C++, C# , PHP, . has the human race suddenly
evolved a vast supply of super geniuses?

No.

http://norvig.com/21-days.html

Arne

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=]

I've invested many years into Java. I do not regret it - knowing
Java has opened up so many more jobs and opportunities for me. We
wouldn't dream of using anything else for enterprise middleware.

However, on the website development front, you look at websites like
flickr and the extensive contributions behind the Joomla, Drupal &
Wordpress projects and think "maybe being best isn't as important as
being popular?".

My company develop websites with Linux (of FreeBSD), Apache (+
Tomcat), MySQL & Java. However, the open source CMS and blog tools
available just aren't as good as Wordpress & Joomla. Several times
we have found ourselves asking "should we add PHP to our repertoire?"
but each time deciding that it's better to stick with the language we
know already.

It seems ironic that the open-source community follow LAMP but yet the
Apache Jakarta group have standardized on Java.

There's no question to this post really. Am just feeling a bit
insecure (though I suspect I would feel more insecure if I only knew
PHP and not Java) and looking for some advice.

PHP is quite popular, so it may be a good idea to have some
PHP skills in the company.

Very few customers are single technology based. There are often
used for suppliers that know more than one technology.

You will probbaly be a bit disappointed when you dig into PHP.

In the CMS/portal/community market then PHP is indeed dominating.

But the quality varies from the fine to the absolutely horrible.

Drupal, Xoops and Typo3 has a decent reputation.

Avoid everything that either has "nuke" in its name or descend
from such.

I do think that the Java world have a few relevant products:
Liferay and JBoss portals
OpenCMS and Alfresco CMS'es
Jahia combo
etc.

Arne

 

[Lew]

There exist a few.

But note that:
- 50 year old developers started around 1980 or so and there were much
fewer in IT back then or put another way: the growth in the IT the
last 25 years makes the average developer younger
- a lot of those 50 year olds in the business that started as developers
are now managers of all kinds
mich:

No.

http://norvig.com/21-days.html

In addition to Arne's well-founded points, there is "skilled" and there is
"skilled". A person well-versed in object-oriented design and programming
best practices, and in C++ or C#, likely will learn enough Java to be
effective in a week. An inexperienced person with little evolved skill in
programming generally, likely will take a little longer. Likewise, an
experienced developer's code is likely to be freer of bugs and lurking dangers
than a newer practitioner's, even given similar skill in the language as such.

Skills that make for rapid development of quality systems tend to transfer
well to different platforms. Those skills take a lifetime to master.

Another aspect of the question: "... people who will claim to know ...".
Claims, as the poster seems to elucidate, may be faulty or even fraudulent.
Further, what a claimant purports to "know" may not live up to one's standards
of competent knowledge.

It is useful to question some claims of expertise. Another useful question
is, "What can I learn from this person?" One can learn much from other
students, from the misguided, from the ignorant, and even from the dishonest.

The question as phrased subsumes several, actually independent questions,
applied here to the 50+ age group, but equally applicable to other demographics:

- What is the prevalence of developers age 50 or greater?
-- Compared to other age groups?
-- Compared to those in this age group who formerly were developers?
- What is the opportunity for developers age 50 or greater?
- What has become of former developers age 50 or greater?
- Are people learning development skills more quickly, and if so, why?
- What expertise are they claiming?
- How credible are people's claims to expertise
(i.e., what do they actually know)?
- How does that expertise meet one's standards?

 

[mich]

Although I'm now a 58-year-old Ph.D. student, 8 years ago I was working
for Sun Microsystems as a large server platform architect. I worked
continuously in programming or hardware architecture from 1970 to 2002.

I believe my durability as a developer was very closely related to
continuous self-education, including learning several programming
languages.

Patricia

Patricia, I am impressed! You obviously had an employer who recognized your
value and gave you the opportunity to do this. My big problem is that most
employers will find it "cheaper" to just hire a kid out of college with
intro level skills.

 

[John W. Kennedy]

Although I'm now a 58-year-old Ph.D. student, 8 years ago I was working
for Sun Microsystems as a large server platform architect. I worked
continuously in programming or hardware architecture from 1970 to 2002.

I believe my durability as a developer was very closely related to
continuous self-education, including learning several programming
languages.

Similar history; I was the guy who installed the new [whatever] and did
a couple of projects in in to show how it worked. Must have learned
20-30 languages. I dropped out after 30 years when the IT strategy
became, "Do whatever Microsoft says." I still keep a hand in, manage a
couple of non-profits' websites, and try to stay up to date, but my
biggest job opportunity at present looks like it's going to be voice
acting. (As a backup, I'm composing an operetta. Not very practical, me.)

 

[Lew]

my
biggest job opportunity at present looks like it's going to be voice
acting. (As a backup, I'm composing an operetta. Not very practical, me.)

Can you point me to some contacts to help get into voice acting? Agents,
managers, casting folks, ...?

 

[heather.fraser]

Oh my, I'm not sure whether this all has reassured me or makes me
wonder about the life of a developer in general

No, really, thanks for the input. We'll look at PHP but if it turns
out to be as much of a scripting mess as Cold Fusion was and full of
hacks & workarounds with Apache I may have to reassess this

Thank you all,

Heather

 

[mich]

Oh my, I'm not sure whether this all has reassured me or makes me
wonder about the life of a developer in general

No, really, thanks for the input. We'll look at PHP but if it turns
out to be as much of a scripting mess as Cold Fusion was and full of
hacks & workarounds with Apache I may have to reassess this

Thank you all,

Heather

Heather, at some point in my dead career I was talking to some people about
joining their "fantastic" e-commerce venture (they soon dropped it after
several people worked at it for months!). They told me about their software
that was mostly written in pearl and had something like 6000 + scripts in
it. What scared me most is that they kept using any tool they could find as
long as it was free, but they expected others to pay them money as
consultants. Maybe they were planning on being free consultants?

What you really need to do is to talk with your employer about you long-term
future, and try to make some sort of long-term career development plan with
them. Where do they see you in a few years? What do they expect of your over
the next few years? And what can you both do to make it work? It's really a
matter of determining what real commitment your employer has for you. The
worst thing that you can do is to just let things happen.

 

[RVince]

I'm a "50 year old developer." I learned (the hard way) that you must ALWAYS
be learning something new.

I have further found that "something new" means "something in widespread use
out there which I don;t know about," and NOT "something new."

If it were merely the latter, I would have gone down many dead ends. Lots of
meta-languages in recent years come to mind. Yet, C, C++, Java, Perl,
php....these are (among) the broad, accepted, non-dead-end languages out
there that are in widespread use. Oh I could have gone and learned Python
and Groovy.....years ago, maybe Forth and Logo.....Algol even!

Yet, of the widespread ones I have mentioned, there is mesiness in all (look
at the extensions to C++, and believe me, php has plenty of extensions &
hacks!)

But php, like the others, seems to be here to stay. Right now, Ruby has
gotten a lot of buzz. BUT, if you learn a decent web framework (read CAKE)
for php, you'll have what Ruby gives you (sans the syntactic, rubyesque,
so-called "sugar" - gag), in php. What a beautiful web framework you now
have, that is big & broad and let's you call POJOs or, if you incorporate
SOAP (30 minute investment in NUSOAP) you can call your EJB's from a php web
framework that gives you what Ruby is......it just keeps getting better.

So yeah, you would be wise to learn php imho. -Ralph Vince

 

[John W. Kennedy]

Can you point me to some contacts to help get into voice acting?
Agents, managers, casting folks, ...?

Can't say, yet. I'm rehearsing Gloucester in an upcoming "King Lear",
and our Cordelia said a couple of days ago that she's going to put me in
touch. Since it was her suggestion in the first place, I suppose she
means it.

Turkish TV into English.

--
John W. Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton