Java on iOS?

Discussion in 'Java' started by Steve Sobol, Oct 14, 2010.

  1. Steve Sobol

    Steve Sobol Guest

    I read somewhere that Apple has relaxed its restrictions on what tools
    can be used to develop iPhone/iPad software. This happened a couple
    months ago.

    So I'm wondering if anyone has done any iOS apps in Java.

    I am taking delivery of a Mac Mini in the next week or two, and I could
    use Xcode to create iOS apps. But with the exception of a few small
    projects I'm doing that require C, I don't want to ever use the language
    again.

    Ever. :)



    --
    Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA
     
    Steve Sobol, Oct 14, 2010
    #1
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  2. Steve Sobol

    Steve Sobol Guest

    In article <>,
    says...

    > If by "modern" one means a language designed 20 years ago and having
    > enjoyed very little improvement since then, other than a mad rush over
    > the last few years to play catch up to languages like Java and C#.


    The way I understand it, Objective-C *is* C with a couple major changes.

    > Me, if I were forced to write an iPhone app, I'd much rather use
    > something like MonoTouch than mess around with a native iOS app. If I'd
    > seen Objective-C back in 1990, I'd have swooned like everyone else. But
    > today? Meh.
    >
    > If you want to write Java on a phone, I'd suggest going Android. And no
    > Big Brother there to tell you what kind of program you're allowed to write.


    Well, yeah. :) But there is a market for iOS apps. (Although Android has
    enough market share that there is now ALSO a market for Android apps).



    --
    Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA
     
    Steve Sobol, Oct 14, 2010
    #2
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  3. Steve Sobol

    Steve Sobol Guest

    In article <>,
    says...

    > With a bit of flexibility, a developer who's accustomed to Java won't
    > have much trouble with ObjC. It had, after all, a *lot* of influence on
    > Java's designers in the early days.
    >
    > <http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/stuff/java-objc.html>



    I doubt I'd have trouble with Objective-C. I know both Java and C++.
    Honestly, the reason I don't like C and its derivatives is because it
    gives me way too much power to completely break things :)


    > And, if you want access to that market, you can't write in Java. That
    > situation will almost certainly change, given Apple's change in policy,
    > but that change hasn't happened yet.



    Ok.

    Thanks :)



    --
    Steve Sobol, Apple Valley, California, USA
     
    Steve Sobol, Oct 14, 2010
    #3
  4. Steve Sobol

    Lew Guest

    Sherm Pendley wrote:
    >>> *plonk*


    Peter Duniho wrote:
    >> Whatever. Real men just use the killfile, they don't have to whine
    >> about it.


    Sherm Pendley wrote:
    > Boo hoo. Did I hit a nerve, little boy?


    Dude, you take away the power of the plonk when you answer post-plonk. Now
    Peter knows he can get a rise out of you even after you claim you aren't
    listening. Certainly there's no chance that plonking him again will hit a
    nerve, because he won't believe it.

    I doubt very much that insulting him will penetrate his opinion. He'll
    probably just project it back, insult you back, no doubt to feed his manic
    glee, and the discussion of Java on iOS will be gone completely. You want to
    defeat him, stay resolutely on topic and let anything else from him be as the
    whispering of the wind.

    Is there any concrete evidence that Apple is considering supporting Java on
    iOS, or is it just expectation?

    Oh, and BTW, :)

    --
    Lew
    ;-)
     
    Lew, Oct 15, 2010
    #4
  5. Steve Sobol

    projectmoon Guest

    Lew <> wrote:

    > Is there any concrete evidence that Apple is considering supporting
    > Java on iOS, or is it just expectation?
    >
    > Oh, and BTW, :)


    I doubt Apple will ever put a JVM on iOS. The app store has a policy
    against running programs that interpret code, if i remember correctly.
    This prevents all languages that are interpreted: python, ruby, etc.

    If a jvm ever did show up on iOS, it would be restricted just like the
    rest of the applications are, and to that end it couldn't really be
    called java.
     
    projectmoon, Oct 15, 2010
    #5
  6. Objective C (was Re: Java on iOS?)

    On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:12:00 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

    > Fragile object construction is fundamental to the language, and I don't
    > think that'll ever change. Some things have gotten a lot better – it
    > now has closures, which isn't even in Java, and there are a bunch of new
    > "synthesis" features for auto-generating certain kinds of code


    Sounds like they're groping their way slowly and blindly towards
    reinventing Lisp -- particularly, functional programming and macros.

    Everybody tries Lisp, rejects it because of the infamous prefix math and
    parentheses, then spends the rest of their careers using languages that
    are trying to recapture all of the goodness of Lisp without giving in to
    the evils of prefix math and parentheses.

    Some do better -- Ruby, Smalltalk -- and some do worse. (If you want
    really bad, try Visual Basic. Now please pardon me while I go wash my
    mouth out with soap.)

    > frankly, Objective-C still has plenty of ways to shoot yourself in the
    > foot, much more than anything I'd call a _truly_ modern language.


    Any powerful language does. The foot bullets just look different.

    With C and derivatives it's blue screens and segfaults.

    Java gives you exception stacktraces, particularly NPEs,
    ClassCastException :))), variations of the themes of ParseException and
    IndexOutOfBoundsException, and an assortment of headscratchers. (For
    these purposes, SAXException, MalformedURLException, and
    NumberFormatException are considered variations on the theme of
    ParseException, and NoSuchElementException IndexOutOfBoundsException.)
    Oh, and an assortment of anal compiler errors.

    Lisp gives you stack overflows and infinite loops when you screw up, or
    nils propagating through everything and your program output coming out as
    "nil".

    Smalltalk has the infamous red-bordered debugger window, almost always a
    DoesNotUnderstand caused by a type error that'd silently propagated for a
    while.

    BASICs run out of memory or give you cryptic wrong results and infinite
    loops, thanks to the tendency to write spaghetti code without higher
    level constructed types in it. Plus plenty of array bounds errors.

    Shell will just quietly erase your filesystem or spam the console with
    garbage interspersed with file-not-found errors after going completely
    off the rails.

    The other scripting languages -- particularly Ruby, Python, and Perl --
    generate an assortment of errors mostly reminiscent of either BASIC or
    Java depending, although in Perl's case the most common symptom may be
    the programmer checking himself into a mental institution after a
    while. :)

    A unique pattern with the scripting languages is string manglage -- auto-
    generated emails sent to "for" or even to "domain@host", for instance, or
    serving up a Web page saying "Current temperature: array index out of
    bounds Current air pressure: file not found". Yes, it's quite easy for
    the TEXT of the error messages to get mixed into the output! But the foot
    bullet symptom particularly characteristic of these is your e-voting site
    playing the Michigan U fight song every time someone casts a ballot. In
    other words, you get hacked.

    Haskell and the ML family yield up a wide variety of compile errors
    involving type inference, some real hair-pullers, but on the other hand
    if it does compile it actually probably works.

    > I'll give Objective-C props for one thing: it's certainly as powerful as
    > most any other "modern" language


    Well, duh. I assume the developers of Objective-C at least managed to
    churn out something that was Turing-complete.

    > But as programmers have proven time and time again, even
    > the good ones really benefit a great deal from a language that focuses
    > on reliability first, and power second.


    Why choose only one when you can use Clojure? :)
     
    ClassCastException, Oct 15, 2010
    #6
  7. Steve Sobol

    Lew Guest

    Peter Duniho wrote:
    > I rarely engage in insults. It's happened maybe once or twice in the
    > last five years, and it'll take a lot more than Sherm's sensitivity
    > about negative opinions regarding Objective-C to push me over the edge.
    >
    > It's interesting to note you taking Sherm's side, when he's the one
    > throwing ad hominem around. I thought you knew better. But then, you
    > should have known better than to expect me to resort to insults in the
    > first place.


    OH, I'm so sorry - I actually don't think there's anything wrong with what you
    said. There was a smiley-face in my post, you know. It was not arbitrary.

    I'm not taking Sherm's side on anything, really - I just didn't want to come
    from an antagonistic perspective in my discussion with him. Truly, Pete, I
    respect your knowledge and opinions, and agree with you more than you probably
    credit. In real life I know you weren't insulting anyone nor have any manic
    glee.

    Please accept my apology for sounding like I was coming down on you.

    That post was a reductio ad absurdum scenario in which I hoped to illustrate
    the pointlessness of arguing with you even if you were such a person as I
    seemed to describe. It should be obvious to anyone that there's no point in
    arguing that way with a person who's being reasonable.

    For the record it was a hypothetical scenario - any resemblance to actual
    persons living or dead is purely coincidental.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Oct 15, 2010
    #7
  8. Steve Sobol

    Tom Anderson Guest

    Re: Objective C (was Re: Java on iOS?)

    On Fri, 15 Oct 2010, ClassCastException wrote:

    > On Thu, 14 Oct 2010 18:12:00 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:
    >
    >> Fragile object construction is fundamental to the language, and I don't
    >> think that'll ever change. Some things have gotten a lot better ? it
    >> now has closures, which isn't even in Java, and there are a bunch of new
    >> "synthesis" features for auto-generating certain kinds of code

    >
    > Sounds like they're groping their way slowly and blindly towards
    > reinventing Lisp -- particularly, functional programming and macros.
    >
    > Everybody tries Lisp, rejects it because of the infamous prefix math and
    > parentheses, then spends the rest of their careers using languages that
    > are trying to recapture all of the goodness of Lisp without giving in to
    > the evils of prefix math and parentheses.


    The funny thing is, LISP was not originally intended to have prefix
    arithmetic and lots of irritating spurious parentheses. The brackety
    syntax was something like an intermediate representation in a compiler,
    and the intent was to define an 'M-syntax' that looked more like a normal
    language (for 1958 values of 'normal' - it would probably have been like
    FORTRAN or ALGOL), which a frontend would translate into the simpler and
    more regular S-expressions to hand to the interpreter or code generator at
    the backend.

    However, the M-syntax was not even defined by the time the backend was
    ready, so LISP was released with just the S-expression syntax. It was
    intended that this would be a temporary situation, and the M-syntax would
    follow soon, but it turned out people were happy programming in
    S-expressions, and were more interested in getting other features
    implemented. The M-syntax never happened - or rather, still hasn't
    happened. Or rather, there have been implementations, but they've never
    really taken off.

    At some point, i suppose, ALGOLish syntaxes became so ingrained in the
    popular consciousness that the fact that LISP still didn't have one became
    a barrier to its adoption.

    tom

    --
    THE DRUMMER FROM DEF LEPPARD'S ONLY GOT ONE ARM!
     
    Tom Anderson, Oct 15, 2010
    #8
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