java or C++ ??

Discussion in 'Java' started by patrick, Jan 27, 2007.

  1. patrick

    patrick Guest

    Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
    this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to users
    to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users on the
    internet via SSL.


    The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java
    myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
    a big download.

    Should I use C++ or java ?

    patrick
     
    patrick, Jan 27, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Re: java or C++ ??

    On Jan 27, 11:38 pm, "patrick" <> wrote:
    ...
    > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time.


    Most people nowadays have the Java Plug-In
    already, so it will only be a few that would
    need to download it.

    >..I only know java
    > myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
    > a big download.
    >
    > Should I use C++ or java ?


    If you want to support PC's running OS's,
    I'd stick with Java Swing, deployed using
    web-start.

    If you only need to support Windows based
    PC's, .NET would probably get the job done
    quite efficiently, and hook easily into the
    Windows GUI toolkit (I guess).

    Why would you want to use C++?
    (Are there good, free C++ GUI toolkits
    available?)

    Andrew T.
     
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 27, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. patrick

    Guest

    Re: java or C++ ??

    On Jan 27, 7:12 pm, "Andrew Thompson" <> wrote:
    > On Jan 27, 11:38 pm, "patrick" <> wrote:
    > ..
    >
    > > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time.Most people nowadays have the Java Plug-In

    > already, so it will only be a few that would
    > need to download it.
    >
    > >..I only know java
    > > myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
    > > a big download.

    >
    > > Should I use C++ or java ?If you want to support PC's running OS's,

    > I'd stick with Java Swing, deployed using
    > web-start.
    >
    > If you only need to support Windows based
    > PC's, .NET would probably get the job done
    > quite efficiently, and hook easily into the
    > Windows GUI toolkit (I guess).
    >
    > Why would you want to use C++?
    > (Are there good, free C++ GUI toolkits
    > available?)
    >
    > Andrew T.


    Java J2ee Interview Questions
    http://javaj2ee-interview-questions.blogspot.com/
     
    , Jan 27, 2007
    #3
  4. patrick

    Lew Guest

    Re: java or C++ ??

    "patrick" wrote:
    >>> Should I use C++ or java ?


    wrote:
    > Java J2ee Interview Questions
    > http://javaj2ee-interview-questions.blogspot.com/


    How would that sloppy, ungrammatical and incomplete presentation in any way
    help with the OP's question?

    Quite aside from its manifest flaws as a source of Java knowledge, it has
    nothing about comparisons to C++, or even C#.

    - Lew
     
    Lew, Jan 27, 2007
    #4
  5. patrick wrote:
    > Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
    > this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to users
    > to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users on the
    > internet via SSL.
    >
    > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java
    > myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
    > a big download.
    >
    > Should I use C++ or java ?


    Both GUI and SSL can be coded in far less lines of code in Java than
    in C++.

    The Java version will be platform independent.

    It would say Java is worth the download.

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Jan 27, 2007
    #5
  6. "patrick" <> wrote in message
    news:HJHuh.17684$...
    > Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
    > this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to
    > users to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users
    > on the internet via SSL.
    >
    >
    > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know
    > java myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather
    > than have a big download.
    >
    > Should I use C++ or java ?


    If the only reason that you are considering C++ is because of the JRE (which
    people should have anyway) then the answer should be fairly clear: Use
    Java.

    --
    LTP

    :)
     
    Luc The Perverse, Jan 27, 2007
    #6
  7. patrick

    patrick Guest

    People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
    broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
    Big downloads are still a problem.
    I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you want
    people to download and use the app.
    So C++ may be the best way to go.
    patrick


    "Luc The Perverse" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "patrick" <> wrote in message
    > news:HJHuh.17684$...
    >> Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
    >> this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to
    >> users to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users
    >> on the internet via SSL.
    >>
    >>
    >> The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know
    >> java myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather
    >> than have a big download.
    >>
    >> Should I use C++ or java ?

    >
    > If the only reason that you are considering C++ is because of the JRE
    > (which people should have anyway) then the answer should be fairly clear:
    > Use Java.
    >
    > --
    > LTP
    >
    > :)
    >
     
    patrick, Jan 27, 2007
    #7
  8. patrick

    Karl Uppiano Guest

    "patrick" <> wrote in message
    news:TVOuh.17688$...
    > People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
    > broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
    > Big downloads are still a problem.
    > I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you want
    > people to download and use the app.
    > So C++ may be the best way to go.
    > patrick


    All engineering is a trade-off. A slow initial download of the JRE (if they
    don't already have it) could be a problem. But not for the ones that do have
    it, though. Then you have the issue of platform independence. It is easier
    to get Java to run on a MAC, Windows, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX than it is with
    C++, especially if the app has a GUI. Native C++ will run a little bit
    faster on it's target platform than Java will, but most wild claims about
    poor Java performance are unsupportable.
     
    Karl Uppiano, Jan 27, 2007
    #8
  9. patrick wrote:
    > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java


    The online install is usually around 10MB. The 16MB figure is when you
    download the install file. This contains a copy of Microsoft's
    installation engine adding about 5MB on top of the real size of the Java
    install. The online install avoids this by checking to see if you
    already have the installer and if so skips downloading it.

    Mark Thornton
     
    Mark Thornton, Jan 27, 2007
    #9
  10. "patrick" <> wrote in message
    news:TVOuh.17688$...
    > People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
    > broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
    > Big downloads are still a problem.
    > I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you want
    > people to download and use the app.
    > So C++ may be the best way to go.
    > patrick


    I'm not sure who your target audience is- but in general people who
    proactively seek out applications to download and install are the more tech
    savvy who will predominantly have installed the JRE and have higher speed
    connections.

    You will not get out of problems with dependencies that easily either. How
    big is the .NET framework for instance? (A rhetorical question) I would
    say that people who do not have the JRE would likely not have the latest
    ..NET framework either.

    Assuming you are using a Microsoft compiler, you could elect to avoid using
    ..NET or MFC altogether - but that is going to put you in a difficult
    position to write an application, since you will be reinventing the wheel -
    particularly for your SSL tunnels etc.

    Or, my personal suggestion - you could do what everyone does, and use the
    easiest tools to develop with, particularly if you are already familiar with
    them and if someone can't use your product because they refuse to install
    the JRE (or .NET or whatever) then so be it.

    If you do write it in C++ I suggest isolating your system independent
    application "intelligence" from your GUI and networking code - this way, if
    you later decide to port it to another platform your job will be greatly
    facilitated (you could even make a Java "face" for your application with C++
    backend and minimize rewriting of code.) Not to mention this is generally
    a good idea anyway ;)
    --
    LTP

    :)
     
    Luc The Perverse, Jan 27, 2007
    #10
  11. On Sat, 27 Jan 2007 04:38:40 -0800, patrick <> wrote:

    > Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
    > this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to
    > users to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other
    > users on the internet via SSL.
    >
    >
    > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know
    > java myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather
    > than have a big download.
    >
    > Should I use C++ or java ?


    You should use Java.

    With C++ you'll probably need to get a third-party SSL library (OpenSSL
    will likely be it), while Java already includes this stuff with the
    regular download. In the end, it is far more likely that users have Java
    on their systems than third-party libraries such as OpenSSL.

    With C++ you'll be dealing directly with the API for the target OS, and
    then you may need to update it for newer versions of that OS, not to
    mention writing different code to support each alternative OS. The end
    result will be a lot more code maintenance, which will increase time
    requirements, and probably lead to more debugging activity as well. Java,
    on the other hand, is OS independent which means you compile it once and
    it will run consistently across all platforms.

    With C++ your GUI is typically tied to the OS, yet with Java the JFC
    (Java Foundation Classes), which are better known as Swing, provides an
    extensive feature-set that is always improving. For example, to create a
    System Tray icon in Java is extremely easy, and natively supported as of
    Java v1.6 (a.k.a., Java 6).

    With C++ there is a need to understand pointers, and pointers to
    pointers, and possibly even pointers to pointers to pointers, ad
    infinitum. Java, on the other hand, addresses (pun not intended) this and
    other complicating aspects in its core design so that the developers don't
    have to be concerned about these things (and then there's Reflection for
    those who need to accomplish certain things that they might use pointers
    for in C/C++/Perl).

    --
    Randolf Richardson -
    The Lumber Cartel, local 42 (Canadian branch)
    http://www.lumbercartel.ca/
     
    Randolf Richardson, Jan 28, 2007
    #11
  12. patrick

    patrick Guest

    Well... what I meant was 16MB ish for the JRE plus your own application. Ive
    written such an application and its total download via install4j is 15MB
    with jre.
    Fairly sure this cannot be reduced further in any easy way. install4j is
    very good and im sure they would have considered all this carefully.
    patrick


    "Mark Thornton" <> wrote in message
    news:KtQuh.16945$...
    > patrick wrote:
    >> The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know
    >> java

    >
    > The online install is usually around 10MB. The 16MB figure is when you
    > download the install file. This contains a copy of Microsoft's
    > installation engine adding about 5MB on top of the real size of the Java
    > install. The online install avoids this by checking to see if you already
    > have the installer and if so skips downloading it.
    >
    > Mark Thornton
     
    patrick, Jan 28, 2007
    #12
  13. patrick

    patrick Guest

    the target audience is the anybody who uses the internet.
    The tech savvy are about 1% of that. and 1% of those know or care what a jre
    is.
    patrick


    "Luc The Perverse" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "patrick" <> wrote in message
    > news:TVOuh.17688$...
    >> People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
    >> broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
    >> Big downloads are still a problem.
    >> I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you
    >> want people to download and use the app.
    >> So C++ may be the best way to go.
    >> patrick

    >
    > I'm not sure who your target audience is- but in general people who
    > proactively seek out applications to download and install are the more
    > tech savvy who will predominantly have installed the JRE and have higher
    > speed connections.
    >
    > You will not get out of problems with dependencies that easily either.
    > How big is the .NET framework for instance? (A rhetorical question) I
    > would say that people who do not have the JRE would likely not have the
    > latest .NET framework either.
    >
    > Assuming you are using a Microsoft compiler, you could elect to avoid
    > using .NET or MFC altogether - but that is going to put you in a difficult
    > position to write an application, since you will be reinventing the
    > wheel - particularly for your SSL tunnels etc.
    >
    > Or, my personal suggestion - you could do what everyone does, and use the
    > easiest tools to develop with, particularly if you are already familiar
    > with them and if someone can't use your product because they refuse to
    > install the JRE (or .NET or whatever) then so be it.
    >
    > If you do write it in C++ I suggest isolating your system independent
    > application "intelligence" from your GUI and networking code - this way,
    > if you later decide to port it to another platform your job will be
    > greatly facilitated (you could even make a Java "face" for your
    > application with C++ backend and minimize rewriting of code.) Not to
    > mention this is generally a good idea anyway ;)
    > --
    > LTP
    >
    > :)
    >
     
    patrick, Jan 28, 2007
    #13
  14. Re: java or C++ ??

    On Jan 28, 9:10 pm, "patrick" <> wrote:
    > the target audience ..


    Likes reading responses posted back to front?
    Please refrain from top-posting. I find it most
    confusing.

    >...is the anybody who uses the internet.
    > The tech savvy are about 1% of that.


    ...and the other 99% is clueless end users, 70%
    of whom have a modern JRE* - without either knowing
    or caring what it is.

    * It came with the computer.

    Andrew T.
     
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 28, 2007
    #14
  15. "Randolf Richardson" <> wrote in message
    news:eek:-corporate.com...
    >> Should I use C++ or java ?

    >
    > You should use Java.


    I am getting the distinct feeling he already decided to use C++ before he
    came here. Everyone is telling him to use Java and he is arguing with us.

    Makes me wonder why he asked to be begin with.

    --
    LTP

    :)
     
    Luc The Perverse, Jan 28, 2007
    #15
  16. Re: java or C++ ??

    On Jan 29, 6:43 am, "Luc The Perverse"
    <> wrote:
    > "Randolf Richardson" <> wrote in messagenews:eek:-corporate.com...
    >
    > >> Should I use C++ or java ?

    >
    > > You should use Java.

    .....
    >..I am getting the distinct feeling he already decided to use C++ before he
    > came here. ...


    I had that sneaking suspicion when I read
    the first post, but I figured I'd give the OP
    the benefit of the doubt.

    > Makes me wonder why he asked to be begin with.


    A good place to troll?
    <http://groups.google.com/groups?
    selm=>

    Andrew T.
     
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 28, 2007
    #16
  17. patrick

    Alex Hunsley Guest

    Re: java or C++ ??

    wrote:
    >
    > On Jan 27, 7:12 pm, "Andrew Thompson" <> wrote:
    >> On Jan 27, 11:38 pm, "patrick" <> wrote:
    >> ..
    >>
    >>> The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time.Most people nowadays have the Java Plug-In

    >> already, so it will only be a few that would
    >> need to download it.
    >>
    >>> ..I only know java
    >>> myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
    >>> a big download.
    >>> Should I use C++ or java ?If you want to support PC's running OS's,

    >> I'd stick with Java Swing, deployed using
    >> web-start.
    >>
    >> If you only need to support Windows based
    >> PC's, .NET would probably get the job done
    >> quite efficiently, and hook easily into the
    >> Windows GUI toolkit (I guess).
    >>
    >> Why would you want to use C++?
    >> (Are there good, free C++ GUI toolkits
    >> available?)
    >>
    >> Andrew T.

    >
    > Java J2ee Interview Questions
    > http://javaj2ee-interview-questions.blogspot.com/


    Stop your incontinent, out of context, and unwelcome babblings about
    your frankly rubbish site.
     
    Alex Hunsley, Jan 28, 2007
    #17
  18. patrick

    Guest

    Re: java or C++ ??

    why are you asking programmers a marketing question?


    On Jan 27, 4:38 am, "patrick" <> wrote:
    > Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
    > this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to users
    > to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users on the
    > internet via SSL.
    >
    > The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java
    > myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
    > a big download.
    >
    > Should I use C++ or java ?
    >
    > patrick
     
    , Jan 29, 2007
    #18
  19. patrick

    patrick Guest

    No. In it is very likely to be done in java considering all the comments and
    that nobody here favours C++ and that I already know java.But I am not sure
    that is a good idea still.

    I was being a devils advocate for C++.I wanted to see what the issues are
    and how other people see them. But I would be worried that people in love
    with java might be biased in their views.

    I asked the same question on a C++ group.

    This most intersting comment there suggested I develop in C++ after a java
    prototype:.
    This is the quote:
    "But a large chunk of the dial-up user
    base just wont wait for the download to be over. Thats not something
    you should dismiss so easily.

    Anyway, it seems you don't really have much of a choice. You only know
    Java so just go ahead and at least write prototype in that language.
    Hire another developer when the project takes off."


    patrick
     
    patrick, Jan 29, 2007
    #19
  20. Re: java or C++ ??

    On Jan 29, 7:56 pm, "patrick" <> wrote:
    ...
    > I asked the same question on a C++ group.


    Uh-huh. This one?
    <http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c /browse_frm/thread/
    8b4821a9a4a78bee/b417221e7cebc158#b417221e7cebc158>

    I checked at the time of my first reply that this
    was not x-posted,or multi-posted, but apparently
    the C++ post was 'late in showing up' in the
    GG listing.

    Perhaps a question of this nature would have
    been better *x-posted* to the *advocacy* groups
    of Java and C++.

    Andrew T.
     
    Andrew Thompson, Jan 29, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Novice
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    1,182
    Mike Schilling
    Jul 19, 2003
  2. Michael Kintner
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    861
    Michael Kintner
    Nov 30, 2003
  3. Ilias Lazaridis
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    593
    Ilias Lazaridis
    Feb 1, 2005
  4. manish sahu
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    1,020
  5. Isaac
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    385
    Isaac
    Jan 20, 2011
Loading...

Share This Page