java or C++ ??

P

patrick

Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to users
to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users on the
internet via SSL.


The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java
myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
a big download.

Should I use C++ or java ?

patrick
 
A

Andrew Thompson

The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time.

Most people nowadays have the Java Plug-In
already, so it will only be a few that would
need to download it.
..I only know java
myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
a big download.

Should I use C++ or java ?

If you want to support PC's running OS's,
I'd stick with Java Swing, deployed using
web-start.

If you only need to support Windows based
PC's, .NET would probably get the job done
quite efficiently, and hook easily into the
Windows GUI toolkit (I guess).

Why would you want to use C++?
(Are there good, free C++ GUI toolkits
available?)

Andrew T.
 
S

sriram1201

already, so it will only be a few that would
need to download it.


I'd stick with Java Swing, deployed using
web-start.

If you only need to support Windows based
PC's, .NET would probably get the job done
quite efficiently, and hook easily into the
Windows GUI toolkit (I guess).

Why would you want to use C++?
(Are there good, free C++ GUI toolkits
available?)

Andrew T.

Java J2ee Interview Questions
http://javaj2ee-interview-questions.blogspot.com/
 
?

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=

patrick said:
Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to users
to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users on the
internet via SSL.

The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java
myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather than have
a big download.

Should I use C++ or java ?

Both GUI and SSL can be coded in far less lines of code in Java than
in C++.

The Java version will be platform independent.

It would say Java is worth the download.

Arne
 
L

Luc The Perverse

patrick said:
Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to
users to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other users
on the internet via SSL.


The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know
java myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather
than have a big download.

Should I use C++ or java ?

If the only reason that you are considering C++ is because of the JRE (which
people should have anyway) then the answer should be fairly clear: Use
Java.
 
P

patrick

People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
Big downloads are still a problem.
I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you want
people to download and use the app.
So C++ may be the best way to go.
patrick
 
K

Karl Uppiano

patrick said:
People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
Big downloads are still a problem.
I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you want
people to download and use the app.
So C++ may be the best way to go.
patrick

All engineering is a trade-off. A slow initial download of the JRE (if they
don't already have it) could be a problem. But not for the ones that do have
it, though. Then you have the issue of platform independence. It is easier
to get Java to run on a MAC, Windows, Linux, Solaris, HP-UX than it is with
C++, especially if the app has a GUI. Native C++ will run a little bit
faster on it's target platform than Java will, but most wild claims about
poor Java performance are unsupportable.
 
M

Mark Thornton

patrick said:
The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know java

The online install is usually around 10MB. The 16MB figure is when you
download the install file. This contains a copy of Microsoft's
installation engine adding about 5MB on top of the real size of the Java
install. The online install avoids this by checking to see if you
already have the installer and if so skips downloading it.

Mark Thornton
 
L

Luc The Perverse

patrick said:
People DONT have the jre. there are many people with only dial ups.
broadband is not everywhere.And it is still slow on broadband.
Big downloads are still a problem.
I am inlined to think the critical thing here is download time if you want
people to download and use the app.
So C++ may be the best way to go.
patrick

I'm not sure who your target audience is- but in general people who
proactively seek out applications to download and install are the more tech
savvy who will predominantly have installed the JRE and have higher speed
connections.

You will not get out of problems with dependencies that easily either. How
big is the .NET framework for instance? (A rhetorical question) I would
say that people who do not have the JRE would likely not have the latest
..NET framework either.

Assuming you are using a Microsoft compiler, you could elect to avoid using
..NET or MFC altogether - but that is going to put you in a difficult
position to write an application, since you will be reinventing the wheel -
particularly for your SSL tunnels etc.

Or, my personal suggestion - you could do what everyone does, and use the
easiest tools to develop with, particularly if you are already familiar with
them and if someone can't use your product because they refuse to install
the JRE (or .NET or whatever) then so be it.

If you do write it in C++ I suggest isolating your system independent
application "intelligence" from your GUI and networking code - this way, if
you later decide to port it to another platform your job will be greatly
facilitated (you could even make a Java "face" for your application with C++
backend and minimize rewriting of code.) Not to mention this is generally
a good idea anyway ;)
 
R

Randolf Richardson

Ive got an idea that Im going to develop into an application.
this will be a GUI type application which will be given away freely to
users to install on their PCs. The application interacts with other
users on the internet via SSL.


The problem with java is still the 16MB ish download time. I only know
java myself but intend to get somebody else to develop it in C++ rather
than have a big download.

Should I use C++ or java ?

You should use Java.

With C++ you'll probably need to get a third-party SSL library (OpenSSL
will likely be it), while Java already includes this stuff with the
regular download. In the end, it is far more likely that users have Java
on their systems than third-party libraries such as OpenSSL.

With C++ you'll be dealing directly with the API for the target OS, and
then you may need to update it for newer versions of that OS, not to
mention writing different code to support each alternative OS. The end
result will be a lot more code maintenance, which will increase time
requirements, and probably lead to more debugging activity as well. Java,
on the other hand, is OS independent which means you compile it once and
it will run consistently across all platforms.

With C++ your GUI is typically tied to the OS, yet with Java the JFC
(Java Foundation Classes), which are better known as Swing, provides an
extensive feature-set that is always improving. For example, to create a
System Tray icon in Java is extremely easy, and natively supported as of
Java v1.6 (a.k.a., Java 6).

With C++ there is a need to understand pointers, and pointers to
pointers, and possibly even pointers to pointers to pointers, ad
infinitum. Java, on the other hand, addresses (pun not intended) this and
other complicating aspects in its core design so that the developers don't
have to be concerned about these things (and then there's Reflection for
those who need to accomplish certain things that they might use pointers
for in C/C++/Perl).
 
P

patrick

Well... what I meant was 16MB ish for the JRE plus your own application. Ive
written such an application and its total download via install4j is 15MB
with jre.
Fairly sure this cannot be reduced further in any easy way. install4j is
very good and im sure they would have considered all this carefully.
patrick
 
P

patrick

the target audience is the anybody who uses the internet.
The tech savvy are about 1% of that. and 1% of those know or care what a jre
is.
patrick
 
A

Andrew Thompson

the target audience ..

Likes reading responses posted back to front?
Please refrain from top-posting. I find it most
confusing.
...is the anybody who uses the internet.
The tech savvy are about 1% of that.

...and the other 99% is clueless end users, 70%
of whom have a modern JRE* - without either knowing
or caring what it is.

* It came with the computer.

Andrew T.
 
L

Luc The Perverse

Randolf Richardson said:
You should use Java.

I am getting the distinct feeling he already decided to use C++ before he
came here. Everyone is telling him to use Java and he is arguing with us.

Makes me wonder why he asked to be begin with.
 
P

patrick

No. In it is very likely to be done in java considering all the comments and
that nobody here favours C++ and that I already know java.But I am not sure
that is a good idea still.

I was being a devils advocate for C++.I wanted to see what the issues are
and how other people see them. But I would be worried that people in love
with java might be biased in their views.

I asked the same question on a C++ group.

This most intersting comment there suggested I develop in C++ after a java
prototype:.
This is the quote:
"But a large chunk of the dial-up user
base just wont wait for the download to be over. Thats not something
you should dismiss so easily.

Anyway, it seems you don't really have much of a choice. You only know
Java so just go ahead and at least write prototype in that language.
Hire another developer when the project takes off."


patrick
 
A

Andrew Thompson

I asked the same question on a C++ group.

Uh-huh. This one?
<http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.c++/browse_frm/thread/
8b4821a9a4a78bee/b417221e7cebc158#b417221e7cebc158>

I checked at the time of my first reply that this
was not x-posted,or multi-posted, but apparently
the C++ post was 'late in showing up' in the
GG listing.

Perhaps a question of this nature would have
been better *x-posted* to the *advocacy* groups
of Java and C++.

Andrew T.
 

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