Java Source For Asymmetric Key Ciphers

T

Tom St Denis

Jean-Luc Cooke said:
Doesn't NTRU have (or had) security problems in the past? Their
$100,000 challanges getting solved in record times and the complexity
big-O formula starts getting closer and closer to N rather than N^2.

I never bothered to research it (or even learn it, lattice
reductions...) since it was patented and I spent my time learning
something that had a chance of "making it".

Bingo.

Last I heard their signatures were weak and you could do attacks using
messages that can't be decrypted.

However, they had some padding or pre-processing tricks to help
there... or something.

I don't think the math is all that bad I just don't care to investigate
further due to the license issues. I'm trying to avoid making my
contribution to this thread a smear on the smart folk at NTRU and more
so towards the marketting folk who think EVERYTHING has a price.

Tom
 
W

William Whyte

Just to respond briefly on this:

- There were attacks based on decryption failures, but they were
eliminated three years ago by appropriate choice of parameters. Our
fault for optimizing for bandwidth rather than security -- the
no-decryption-failure option was always available, we just didn't take
it. See http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/articles.htm#2003_2,
http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/articles.htm#2003_3,
http://www.ntru.com/cryptolab/articles.htm#2005_1,

- NTRUSign signatures aren't zero-knowledge, but our best estimates are
that you need at least 2^30 signatures generated with the same key, and
probably many orders of magnitude more, before you can begin to recover
any useful information about the private key. See
http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/1363/lattPK/submissions.html#2005-08.
Their $100,000 challanges getting solved in record times

I'm not sure what you're thinking of here; we've never had a challenge
problem cracked. (Maybe you were thinking of the recent RSA
factorization? That was solved faster than the previous problem, so
could be counted as "record", but the time confirmed existing security
estimates for keys of a given length rather than reducing them).
and the complexity
big-O formula starts getting closer and closer to N rather than N^2.

This is the running time of the algorithm, not the running time to
break it! N^2 wouldn't be a great security level for any algorithm, but
it's a pretty good running time.

I agree with Tom that this isn't the right thread to get into a
discussion of the merits of NTRU; I just wanted to point out that I
disagree with him on whether or not patenting a technology is always
counterproductive.

(BTW, I don't know if I made it clear in my earlier mails, but I'm
currently the CTO of NTRU, so I have a dog in this fight).

Cheers,

William
 
T

Tom St Denis

William Whyte wrote:
<snip>

Most of that reply is for JL more than for me :) so I'll reply to the
last bit.
I agree with Tom that this isn't the right thread to get into a
discussion of the merits of NTRU; I just wanted to point out that I
disagree with him on whether or not patenting a technology is always
counterproductive.

I never said it's "always" counterproductive. I just think this
particular technology doesn't warrant such status.

It's like given the choice of driving to work or ride this patented
space-age two wheel human powered device to work. Sure the latter is
better for the environment and your health but people have a choice to
take the former.

ECC may be slower, but it *is* part of several standards so while you
bite the bullet on memory and speed you still have something useable
[specially in the presence of 32-bit cores].

So people aren't drawn to NTRU by other means, e.g. because it's way
more secure or because it's part of some lucrative standard worth
supporting. So why would they license it other than they want to be
different.

You're the Apple of cryptography.

:)

Rock'On!

Tom
 
L

Luc The Perverse

William Whyte said:
I'm not sure what you're thinking of here; we've never had a challenge
problem cracked. (Maybe you were thinking of the recent RSA
factorization? That was solved faster than the previous problem, so
could be counted as "record", but the time confirmed existing security
estimates for keys of a given length rather than reducing them).

You say "we"

Are you in some way affiliated?
 
W

William Whyte

Yes, I'm the CTO. I made that clear at the end of the post you
reference, but should have made it clear from the beginning of the
thread. Sorry about that -- I forgot that I was posting from my gmail
account.
 
L

Luc The Perverse

William Whyte said:
Yes, I'm the CTO. I made that clear at the end of the post you
reference, but should have made it clear from the beginning of the
thread. Sorry about that -- I forgot that I was posting from my gmail
account.

No problem - but as the CTO (a term I had to google define) - you wouldn't
by chance know where I could find some sample Java source to "play around
with" would you?
 
T

Tom St Denis

Roedy said:
I thought you were asking for coding examples for JCE ciphers. I
pointed you to them. It may not have been what you asked for, but it
is not spam.

He was asking for NTRU in Java not just "any cipher". If you had
followed the thread you would have realize that wasn't what he was
asking for.

I consider it spam because the page you linked to has been infected
with "I depend on advertisement"-itis and needs to be treated by
someone with a medical degree.

Tom
 
R

Roedy Green

He was asking for NTRU in Java not just "any cipher". If you had
followed the thread you would have realize that wasn't what he was
asking for.

That was not obvious. He did not start out with that request. It was
just one of the suggestions offered to him.

The subject line does not indicate that restriction either.

But even if I did answer the wrong question I is still not spam. You
are misusing the word.

It is like calling some male you don't like an "old sow". If you must
insult, at least use correct terminology.
 
R

Roedy Green

I consider it spam because the page you linked to has been infected
with "I depend on advertisement"-itis and needs to be treated by
someone with a medical degree.

I have poured about 10 years into preparing that material based
largely on monitoring the real world problems people post in the
comp.lang.java.* newsgroups. It barely generates enough revenue to
pay the ISP. For years it did not even do that. The website is a
favour to Java community. It can save you a lot of time if you learn
to use it. I can no longer afford to subsidize it purely on my own.

I have HIV and my time on earth is limited. I want to contribute
something to the planet before I croak. Posts like yours really make
my day.

Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have
some nerve to stand in judgment.
 
P

Paul Rubin

Roedy Green said:
That was not obvious. He did not start out with that request. It was
just one of the suggestions offered to him.

Looks to me like he did:

Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,sci.crypt
Subject: Java Source For Asymmetric Key Ciphers
Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 13:39:38 -0700
Message-ID: <[email protected]>

Hi - I'm looking for HFE and NTRU java source code.

I don't want to pay for these libraries, because I'm not going to make a
product with them, I only want to read through the algorithms and "play"
with them. I have trouble understanding the algorithm by reading a pper,
and have a better chance of understanding if reading code.

Are they available anywhere for free?
 
C

Chris Uppal

Roedy said:
Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have
some nerve to stand in judgment.

Tom St Denis isn't a Java programmer (at least not in public ;-). You
may notice that this thread is cross-posted to sci.crypt.

As for "contribution" see:

http://libtomcrypt.org/

I'm a bit surprised you that seem not to know it already.

-- chris
 
T

Tom St Denis

Roedy said:
what a hypocrite! This guy has even more screen real estate devoted to
ads than I do. There are none on my home page or the Java glossary
page.

What ads do I have on my page? You mean the two static logos one from
my employer who paid for a lot of LTC development and the other from
the guy who actually hosts the website [and he's not a company, I just
link to his personal website].

You'll note I don't have goooooooogle ads sprawled on every page and
it's quite easy from the top of the page to navigate to the
downloads...

pissing contests aside ... Your page you gave us a link for amounts to
one of those "search search" pages you can find in google that are
nothing than "top 10" links with dozen of ads and annoying cookie and
other bugs. I'm sure "Java JCE" would turn up useful hits, let's
check...

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=Java+JCE&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

yup.

Tom
 
L

Luc The Perverse

Chris Uppal said:
Tom St Denis isn't a Java programmer (at least not in public ;-). You
may notice that this thread is cross-posted to sci.crypt.

As for "contribution" see:

http://libtomcrypt.org/

I'm a bit surprised you that seem not to know it already.

I didn't mean to be starting something. This was actually quite unexpected.
 
S

stan

I have poured about 10 years into preparing that material based
largely on monitoring the real world problems people post in the
comp.lang.java.* newsgroups. It barely generates enough revenue to
pay the ISP. For years it did not even do that. The website is a
favour to Java community. It can save you a lot of time if you learn
to use it. I can no longer afford to subsidize it purely on my own.

I have HIV and my time on earth is limited. I want to contribute
something to the planet before I croak. Posts like yours really make
my day.

Your contribution to Java appears to be one thread. You have. have
some nerve to stand in judgment.


Take it easy, Roedy.

It is well-known in sci.crypt that Tom is a bully and that his very
first knee-jerk reaction is always to attack *anyone* offering to help
folks in sci.crypt with programming code of any kind.

So, even though a lot of people are not telling him publicly to shut
up, they are likely thinking it.

Your offer appears to be generous, and I think most will appreciate it
for what it is.

OT, but regarding your condition:
It is my belief the good things you do in this world will serve you
well in your next experience, and bring you closer to the destination
we all will eventually get to. Some of us will make it quickly, and
some of us have a really long journey due to a basic refusal to
embrace certain truths. I'll leave it at that.

Anyway, try and rest easy that a lot of folks appreciate your efforts.
 

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