Java sucks, Perl Rules.

[John Bokma]

s/Opalinski/fool/ ;

there is a great use of regexes in perl. let's see how fast you can code
that in java!

Java does have regexp support that's not that hard to use. I just dropped
in, and see that this is just another language war, so I go :-D

just let it go. you will never understand perl or anything beyond your
little java applet world. and don't come back with some balderdash about
my not knowing other langs and such as i could swat you like a fly in
too many langs.

or pissing contest for that matter.

Altough I guess Uri got hijacked.

 

[Matt Garrish]

Matt Garrish first wrote: "There is no text extraction by regular
expressions for all the sys admin work you can do with Perl.."

Matt Garrish later wrote: "few admin tasks that can be done in Perl
ever need regex processing?"

You're more accurate now.

Different context. In the original I was responding to: "Perl is simply an
excellent tool for extracting information from files using regular
expressions". I was using the context of that statement as a rebuttal to the
claim by providing instances where one would never need Perl's regex engine.
That you can was never at issue. Anyway, this has gone on long enough...

Matt

 

[Matt Garrish]

b) the label "stupidest assessments of Perl I've ever read"
was perhaps the poster dating himself and not knowing that you held a
similar opinion prior to 1996.

For those who don't know: Mr. Schwartz was one of the authors of
"Programming Perl 2nd edition". Useful book.

So because you found something that might have been true prior to 1996,
that's somehow relevant today? And I should forgive you because you have a
decade-old opinion of the language? I give up...

Matt

 

[Bart Lateur]

Let's compare what percentage of Java programs use regular expressions
and what percentage of Perl programs use regular expressions. By the
java code I've got available I see less than 1% of Java sources using
regular expressions.

If people in Java don't use regular expressions to, as you say in
another post:

: In a sys admin context one example is when I extracted timezone
: information from a text file where it was stored.

where in Perl it's the most natural thing to use, this seems to imply
that using regular expressions in Java is just too hard, to be the first
choice.

Well, perhaps.

 

[Chris Smith]

Just jumping in.

You're making my point for me: Java is more verbose.

Of course it is. I haven't reaqd the thread to this point, but I'd be
shocked if someone disagrees with that statement.

The fact that you've come up with techniques to avoid some of the
negative consequences of that verbosity indicates just how bad the
situation is.

Or, of course, that it's not really bad at all. Only if you've already
assumed that a verbose language is bad does this prove that the
situation is bad. That's called begging the question.

If you spent the same amount of time adjusting your editing style
for Perl, for example, is there any reason why you wouldn't see a
similar reduction in the amount of typing required to deliver similar
functionality?

Of course there is. The biggest reason is static typing in Java, which
means that decent editing tools can be far more helpful and provide
things like auto-completion of method names. Another is that every
major popular development environment for Java provides high-level
commands to update things throughout large numbers of source files, and
those tools don't seem to exist for Perl.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Michael Redlich]

I know. I shouldn't have gotten sucked in by the idiocy of the original
comment, but such gross over-simplifications are an anathema to me... : )

You got sucked into this because you totally over-reacted to my
original post which, by-the-way, was to point out that comparing Java
to Perl was like comparing apples to oranges. I'll give everyone a
couple of minutes to go back and re-read it...

Is everyone done re-reading my original post? OK, good...

I tried to make my point by quickly stating the fundamental differences
between the two languages. It wasn't supposed to be a dissertation on
what Perl can do for developers. I wasn't claiming to be an expert in
Perl because I'll be the first to admit that I'm not. If I need some
Perl training, Matt, you'll be the first person that I contact. Fair
enough?

So let's all settle down, and get back to work.

Oh yes, I think Uri needs to grow up. If I had to guess, he's probably
about 15 years old. I was ready to puke up my dinner with his childish
remarks.

Later...

Mike.

--- ACGNJ Java Users Group (http://www.javasig.org/)

 

[John Bokma]

If people in Java don't use regular expressions to, as you say in
another post:

: In a sys admin context one example is when I extracted timezone
: information from a text file where it was stored.

where in Perl it's the most natural thing to use, this seems to imply
that using regular expressions in Java is just too hard, to be the first
choice.

It also depends on the background of the programmer. I would use a regex
in Java, if that would solve my problem the best.

There are plenty of times people use regexp in Perl just because it's the
shortest way to write it down. Which might be a good or a bad reason.

Ages ago, when I discovered hash tables, I made my own little C lib for
hash tables. When I discovered Perl, I immediatly loved the language: hash
tables built in.

But it didn't keep me from using hash tables in other languages.
But it kept me from using hash tables if there was a better option
available (i.e. a better reason at that moment, for that problem, taking
as much things into account, etc.).

 

[Stefan Ram]

Ages ago, when I discovered hash tables, I made my own little C
lib for hash tables. When I discovered Perl, I immediatly loved
the language: hash tables built in.

"Hash tables built in" are not such a progress. The progress is:
hash tables in a language /with a garbage collector/. Using
dynamic datastructures in C requires the programmer to take
care of memory management, which makes it much more difficult.

 

[John Bokma]

"Hash tables built in" are not such a progress. The progress is:
hash tables in a language /with a garbage collector/. Using
dynamic datastructures in C requires the programmer to take
care of memory management, which makes it much more difficult.

Ones advantage is anothers disadvantage. In some situations control over
memory management is desired. Look at all the nice gc options Java has.

I wouldn't call it progress, just something that can be very handy at
times and a pita at other.

 

[opalpa]

And I should forgive you because you have a

decade-old opinion of the language?

This is a non-sequitor. Nothing to apologize for -- my messages are
polite and thoughtful.

Your messages, on the other hand, contain name-calling, baseless
claims of superiority, irrelevant spelling corrections, and rudness.

bye

Opalinski
(e-mail address removed)
http://www.geocities.com/opalpaweb/

 

[Michael Redlich]

s/Opalinski/fool/ ;

there is a great use of regexes in perl. let's see how fast you can code
that in java!

your conflation of tools used and the purposes of programs is
boggling. would using a regex in bioperl to process gene data mean that
that work is just plain text processing? or parsing XML? or writing
internet protocols? you don't get the difference between a popular and
powerful feature of a language and the goals of a particular
program. given such a lack of discriminating logic, as i said before
please stick to java. it needs more coders like you.

just let it go. you will never understand perl or anything beyond your
little java applet world. and don't come back with some balderdash about
my not knowing other langs and such as i could swat you like a fly in
too many langs.

and back to the mature part of this useless thread. you ain't a perl
hacker and we are glad! NYAH!! NYAHH! NYAHH!!

<one day those nyahs will finally be understood by you. i won't hold my
breath. now go away before even the java groups start thinking of you as
a fool.>

uri

So this is how the President and Chief Technical Officer of Stem
Systems, Inc. conducts himself on these groups. I shudder at the
thought of how he runs the company...

Mike.

--- ACGNJ Java Users Group (http://www.javasig.org/)

 

[Uri Guttman]

MR> Oh yes, I think Uri needs to grow up. If I had to guess, he's
MR> probably about 15 years old. I was ready to puke up my dinner
MR> with his childish remarks.

i hope your dinner tasted good in both directions.

<SARCASM_ALERT>
NYAH NYAH NYAH!!!
</SARCASM_ALERT>

does that make it clearer?

so we have can't understand what perl is and can't comprehend obvious
sarcasm. seems to be a trend here.

by the way, i am enjoying this. i rarely troll but you guys are making
it so easy and fun.

how about this one. java and all those fancy IDE tools are for those who
need all those crutches. i would like to see one of you code on punch
cards (not even a screen editor) and wait 2 hours for your batch job to
print out and then analyze the results. the children are the ones who
demand the toys and who can't use their brains to code and
debug. the fanciest tools can't help bad coders become better coders. so
the claim you have better tools is empty. good coders can work in any
language. bad coders demand IDEs. <hint: that was a java insult>

can't wait to see the response from the java camp.

<MORE_SARCASM_ALERT>
and i am 16 dammit!! respect my experience!!
</MORE_SARCASM_ALERT>

uri

 

[Uri Guttman]

MR> So this is how the President and Chief Technical Officer of Stem
MR> Systems, Inc. conducts himself on these groups. I shudder at the
MR> thought of how he runs the company...

i am having fun here. too bad you don't get it. fun is good.

uri

 

[Michael Redlich]

i hope your dinner tasted good in both directions.

I managed to keep it down, thanks...

<SARCASM_ALERT>
NYAH NYAH NYAH!!!
</SARCASM_ALERT>

does that make it clearer?

Yes, it's very clear that you are very immature for a person with 25
years of programming experience and an officer in a small company.
Sarcasm or not, your conduct is no-doubt childish and unacceptable.

how about this one. java and all those fancy IDE tools are for those who
need all those crutches. i would like to see one of you code on punch
cards (not even a screen editor) and wait 2 hours for your batch job to
print out and then analyze the results. the children are the ones who
demand the toys and who can't use their brains to code and
debug. the fanciest tools can't help bad coders become better coders. so
the claim you have better tools is empty. good coders can work in any
language. bad coders demand IDEs. <hint: that was a java insult>

can't wait to see the response from the java camp.

I never said that Java was better than Perl. If you remember, oh wait,
you probably didn't re-read my original post like I suggested earlier.
OK, I'll wait a few minutes so that you can finally do that now...

Done? OK. So, if you remember, I didn't even *compare* Java to Perl.
I actually said that Perl was an *excellent* language. Everyone
started to get upset because I underestimated what Perl can do. I just
looked out my window, and the sky hasn't fallen yet.

And by-the-way, I don't use no stinkin' IDEs. The Java SDK and Ant are
all I use. Why don't you come see for yourself at the next ACGNJ Java
Users Group meeting on February 14. I see that Stem Systems is in
Iselin, NJ. You're not too far from Scotch Plains, NJ where the
meetings are held. Send me a note offline to (e-mail address removed), and I
will be glad to give you directions and more information about the user
group.

Would you be interested in making a Perl presentation at one of the
other user group meetings that ACGNJ sponsors? The club doesn't have a
Perl Users Group. Would you be interested in leading it?

Mike.

--- ACGNJ Java Users Group (http://www.javasig.org/)

 

[John Bokma]

I managed to keep it down, thanks...

Uri has been overtaken by aliens, or my memory is bad.

 

[Dr.Ruud]

(e-mail address removed) schreef:

irrelevant spelling corrections, and rudness.

Rudness is good. If only all people were more like Rud.

 

[Tassilo v. Parseval]

Also sprach (e-mail address removed) opalinski from opalpaweb:

page x, preface, "Programming Perl, 2nd edition", (dated stuff, yes,
part of the point coming):

"The hitherto well-kept secret is now out: Perl is no longer just for
text processing."

You thought Perl was for more than text processing in 1996. The "no
longer" implies there was a time before then when you thought it was
"just for text processing".

There were times when Perl was mostly used and useful for
text-processing. These things changed with the release of perl5.000
which happened in late 1994. It took another few years until perl5 was
more widely in use than perl4. Had perl5 in fact been perl1, this
tight association of text-processing with Perl might never have happened
to such an extent.

Let's compare what percentage of Java programs use regular expressions
and what percentage of Perl programs use regular expressions. By the
java code I've got available I see less than 1% of Java sources using
regular expressions. I'm having a hard time thinking of a grep to
identify which perl code uses regular expressions. Let's approach this
a little more intuitively:

Say you wrote a program to categorize newsgroup posts and had yourself
features for each newsgroup post. If for a particular message a
"regular expression" feature was present that would be more strongly
correlated with a perl newsgroup than a java newsgroup. Same for a
"text processing" feature.

As you've said yourself a little later: Things spread slowly. Java
didn't have regular expressions as powerful as Perl's until 1.5 whereas
Perl had regular expressions right from the beginning. The availability
of certain features and the way they are integrated into a language have
an educational effect on its user base and influence their way of
thinking. Perl programmers are used to be thinking in terms of regular
expressions, sometimes even when the problem at hand is not related to
text-processing at all: A very infamous Perl hacker devised a technique
to use regular expressions for testing if a given number is a prime
number.

Likewise with Java: Java programmers are used to be thinking in certain
terms of object-orientedness simply because that's the way it has been
done in their language ever since (and this way differs from the
thinking enforced by C++ and Perl because their object-orientedness has
had a different flavour altogether).

The point is multipart:a) although you have long accepted Perl to be
more than text processing and regular expressions that opinion spreads
slowely,

It's about time that certain things sink into the mindset of a Java
programmer: Namely even when a lot of text-processing is involved on the
surface of the source code, this does not necessarily mean that the
program itself is so obviously text-based. I frequently hear Java in
connection with terms such as XML and DOM. This is nothing but
text-processing (in which, incidentally, regular expressions could come
in extremely handy).

Tassilo

 

[Dr.Ruud]

Stefan Ram schreef:

John Bokma writes:

"Hash tables built in" are not such a progress. The progress is:
hash tables in a language /with a garbage collector/. Using
dynamic datastructures in C requires the programmer to take
care of memory management, which makes it much more difficult.

There is no real difference between "built in" and using a good library.
Especially so if the language is great with libraries (and glue).

Dynamic datastructures are accessed via handles. For bulk operations, it
is good that the language allows you to lock the datastructures in
memory, to access them directer and faster. But only if you need so, and
only for a moment.

 

[Dr.Ruud]

Michael Redlich schreef:

[uri]
So this is how the President and Chief Technical Officer of Stem
Systems, Inc. conducts himself on these groups. I shudder at the
thought of how he runs the company...

You are trying to play the man now, so you are trying to lose. Why don't
you succeed?

 

[axel]

Uri Guttman wrote:

Yes, it's very clear that you are very immature for a person with 25
years of programming experience and an officer in a small company.
Sarcasm or not, your conduct is no-doubt childish and unacceptable.

Unacceptable to whom?

His comment made a good point regarding the childishness of arguing
about which programming language is better. Such arguments are
really only valid when a particular goal is being considered and
even then factors outside purely programming considerations may
need to be taken into account. A bit like the old emacs versus vi
debate. No right answer, unless you are a sys admin in which case
vi is a necessity since it comes as a standard piece of software.

I never said that Java was better than Perl. If you remember, oh wait,
you probably didn't re-read my original post like I suggested earlier.
OK, I'll wait a few minutes so that you can finally do that now...

What makes you think that your original post will still be around
on everyone's server.

Done? OK. So, if you remember, I didn't even *compare* Java to Perl.
I actually said that Perl was an *excellent* language. Everyone
started to get upset because I underestimated what Perl can do. I just
looked out my window, and the sky hasn't fallen yet.

It was on mine, and your words were, "Perl is simply an excellent
tool for extracting information from files using regular expressions."

Axel