Javascript: why...? why...?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Pascal Bouchard, Nov 6, 2004.

  1. Javascript is a language used on Web pages all over the Net.
    I find Javascript usefull but... why most of the modern browsers allow its
    users to disable it?
    For what purpose was this language invented?
    What is (are) the alternative(s)?

    --
    Pascal
    [Remove NOSPAM from personnal e-mail]



    ---
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    Pascal Bouchard, Nov 6, 2004
    #1
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  2. Pascal Bouchard

    Wÿrm Guest

    "Pascal Bouchard" <> wrote in message
    news:yu7jd.75427$...
    > Javascript is a language used on Web pages all over the Net.
    > I find Javascript usefull but... why most of the modern browsers allow its
    > users to disable it?


    People do not like how javascript is abused to popup/under all kinda things,
    resize windows and what not. Maybe because of that? ;)
     
    Wÿrm, Nov 6, 2004
    #2
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  3. Pascal Bouchard

    Karl Core Guest

    "Pascal Bouchard" <> wrote in message
    news:yu7jd.75427$...
    > Javascript is a language used on Web pages all over the Net.
    > I find Javascript usefull but... why most of the modern browsers allow its
    > users to disable it?
    > For what purpose was this language invented?
    > What is (are) the alternative(s)?
    >


    There are sooooooo many ways that websites can use JavaScript to abuse
    visitors.
    The book "Building Really Annoying Websites"
    (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764548743/103-3363179-5543861?v=glance)
    Focuses on ways you can really piss people off.
    A good 90%+ of the book focuses on JavaScript. That should answer your
    first question rather well. People just abuse it too much.

    JavaScript does have its uses. There are a lot of ways that you can provide
    a high level of interactivity for your users with it.
    I can't think of anything (useful) that JavaScript can do that can't be done
    server-side such as with PHP, ASP, JSP, Perl, etc.

    -Karl
     
    Karl Core, Nov 6, 2004
    #3
  4. "Karl Core" <> wrote:

    > I can't think of anything (useful) that JavaScript can do that can't be done
    > server-side such as with PHP, ASP, JSP, Perl, etc.


    True (I think, after three seconds consideration), but often the same
    action performed client-side by JS seems faster (to the user) than
    performing it server-side. Form validation is a good example: while one
    would always want final validation to occur server-side, performing it
    on the client-side may save the user from having to wait for a full page
    request and load to discover they've made a minor typo or skipped a
    field.

    --
    Joel.
     
    Joel Shepherd, Nov 6, 2004
    #4
  5. Pascal Bouchard

    Karl Core Guest

    "Joel Shepherd" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Karl Core" <> wrote:
    >
    >> I can't think of anything (useful) that JavaScript can do that can't be
    >> done
    >> server-side such as with PHP, ASP, JSP, Perl, etc.

    >
    > True (I think, after three seconds consideration), but often the same
    > action performed client-side by JS seems faster (to the user) than
    > performing it server-side. Form validation is a good example: while one
    > would always want final validation to occur server-side, performing it
    > on the client-side may save the user from having to wait for a full page
    > request and load to discover they've made a minor typo or skipped a
    > field.


    You're right. This is especially true for (very) high traffic websites.
    You definitely don't want to burden the server with repeated requests just
    to validate a form.
    Still, in the case of form validation, it makes sense to do both client-side
    and server side validation

    -Karl
     
    Karl Core, Nov 6, 2004
    #5
  6. Pascal Bouchard

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Pascal Bouchard said:

    > Javascript is a language used on Web pages all over the Net.


    and most of the time it shouldn't be. for example, needing JS so a
    submit button works. people just don't think.

    > I find Javascript usefull


    the technology isn't the problem, its giggly technology. as usual its
    what people do with the giggly technology that is the problem

    > but... why most of the modern browsers allow its users to disable it?


    or partially disable it. you're rarely wrong if you automatically assume
    sites are going to do something annoying to you with it.

    > For what purpose was this language invented?


    in hindsight - to annoy

    > What is (are) the alternative(s)?


    use JS to add optional enhancements to a site, don't make it a
    requirement for the site to work. easy peasy.

    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
     
    brucie, Nov 6, 2004
    #6
  7. Pascal Bouchard

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Joel Shepherd said:

    > True (I think, after three seconds consideration), but often the same
    > action performed client-side by JS seems faster (to the user) than
    > performing it server-side. Form validation is a good example: while one
    > would always want final validation to occur server-side, performing it
    > on the client-side may save the user from having to wait for a full page
    > request and load to discover they've made a minor typo or skipped a
    > field.


    Javascript form validation ¡V doing it right
    http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/formval.html

    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
     
    brucie, Nov 6, 2004
    #7
  8. Dans un message précédent, brucie <> a écrit:

    > use JS to add optional enhancements to a site, don't make it a
    > requirement for the site to work. easy peasy.


    Absolutely right!


    ---
    Ce courriel est exempt de virus.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release Date: 2004-10-27
     
    Pascal Bouchard, Nov 6, 2004
    #8
  9. Pascal Bouchard

    WebMaster Guest

    most people don't bother (or even don't know) to disable it...

    This group IS a minority (yes, I know some people do not like to be reminded
    of that) :)

    Rudy

    "Wÿrm" <> wrote in message
    news:cmj0hj$sl2$...
    >
    > "Pascal Bouchard" <> wrote in message
    > news:yu7jd.75427$...
    > > Javascript is a language used on Web pages all over the Net.
    > > I find Javascript usefull but... why most of the modern browsers allow

    its
    > > users to disable it?

    >
    > People do not like how javascript is abused to popup/under all kinda

    things,
    > resize windows and what not. Maybe because of that? ;)
    >
    >
     
    WebMaster, Nov 7, 2004
    #9
  10. "WebMaster" <> wrote:

    > most people don't bother (or even don't know) to disable it...
    >
    > This group IS a minority (yes, I know some people do not like to be reminded
    > of that) :)


    It might be a minority, but some of its members are very important ones.
    Starting with search engine bots.

    --
    Joel.
     
    Joel Shepherd, Nov 7, 2004
    #10
  11. Pascal Bouchard

    Kris Guest

    In article <uMhjd.3400$>,
    "WebMaster" <> wrote:

    > most people don't bother (or even don't know) to disable it...


    All it takes is stepping up one security level in IE Settings, in plain
    sight when you pop them open. With all the IE security holes buzz going
    on, I assume people don't have a lot of trouble looking for and finding
    those settings.

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
     
    Kris, Nov 7, 2004
    #11
  12. Kris <> wrote:

    > In article <uMhjd.3400$>,
    > "WebMaster" <> wrote:
    >
    >> most people don't bother (or even don't know) to disable it...

    >
    > All it takes is stepping up one security level in IE Settings, in
    > plain sight when you pop them open. With all the IE security holes
    > buzz going on, I assume people don't have a lot of trouble looking
    > for and finding those settings.


    However, system managers and security staff may decide that's too
    unreliable, and set up the company's firewall so that JavaScript is
    filtered out before it even reaches the user's browser.

    Moreover, e.g. updating Windows XP with Service Pack 2 (now happening
    worldwide, you just can't avoid getting thrown at with the SP2 cd's
    whether you have XP or not :)) has reportedly prevented JavaScript
    execution in a large number of situations. Some of the patches make IE
    treat certain kinds of JavaScript as security threat, therefore ignored.
    No, you won't get a detailed description of the exact conditions where
    this happens. (Such relative secrecy seems to be part of the security
    policy.)

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Nov 7, 2004
    #12
  13. Pascal Bouchard

    Sam Hughes Guest

    Joel Shepherd <> wrote in
    news::

    > "Karl Core" <> wrote:
    >
    >> I can't think of anything (useful) that JavaScript can do that can't
    >> be done server-side such as with PHP, ASP, JSP, Perl, etc.

    >
    > True (I think, after three seconds consideration), but often the same
    > action performed client-side by JS seems faster (to the user) than
    > performing it server-side. Form validation is a good example: while
    > one would always want final validation to occur server-side,
    > performing it on the client-side may save the user from having to wait
    > for a full page request and load to discover they've made a minor typo
    > or skipped a field.


    It would have been neat if HTML had built-in form validation, in the form
    of some sort of regular expression containing attribute.
     
    Sam Hughes, Nov 8, 2004
    #13
  14. Pascal Bouchard

    Neal Guest

    On 8 Nov 2004 17:56:52 GMT, Sam Hughes <> wrote:

    > It would have been neat if HTML had built-in form validation, in the form
    > of some sort of regular expression containing attribute.


    Then again, it's a Markup Language.
     
    Neal, Nov 8, 2004
    #14
  15. Pascal Bouchard

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Sam Hughes wrote:

    > It would have been neat if HTML had built-in form validation, in the form
    > of some sort of regular expression containing attribute.


    I think XForms 1.0 does have giggly validation stuff built in.

    XForms is a general XML form markup language designed to be included as
    part of other future standards, such as XHTML 2.0, future versions of SVG,
    MathML, etc...

    IIRC, the Mozilla team have started work on it, and there are various
    browser plugins for XForms in varying stages of completion.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Nov 8, 2004
    #15
  16. Pascal Bouchard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    Andy Dingley, Nov 8, 2004
    #16
  17. Pascal Bouchard

    Sam Hughes Guest

    Neal <> wrote in
    news:eek::

    > On 8 Nov 2004 17:56:52 GMT, Sam Hughes <> wrote:
    >
    >> It would have been neat if HTML had built-in form validation, in the
    >> form of some sort of regular expression containing attribute.

    >
    > Then again, it's a Markup Language.


    Then again, the attribute would be describing the (future) content of the
    form field.

    You capitalize Markup Language as if it were some kind of deity :p
     
    Sam Hughes, Nov 9, 2004
    #17
  18. Pascal Bouchard

    Neredbojias Guest

    Without quill or qualm, Jukka K. Korpela quothed:

    > Moreover, e.g. updating Windows XP with Service Pack 2 (now happening
    > worldwide, you just can't avoid getting thrown at with the SP2 cd's
    > whether you have XP or not :)) has reportedly prevented JavaScript
    > execution in a large number of situations. Some of the patches make IE
    > treat certain kinds of JavaScript as security threat, therefore ignored.
    > No, you won't get a detailed description of the exact conditions where
    > this happens. (Such relative secrecy seems to be part of the security
    > policy.)


    Wonderful. That makes IE is even more broken and less usable than
    before. And Microsoft hires only people in the top 5% of their
    graduating classes?? Glad I'm stupid.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    Neredbojias, Nov 9, 2004
    #18
  19. Pascal Bouchard

    Neal Guest

    On 9 Nov 2004 07:08:50 GMT, Sam Hughes <> wrote:

    > Neal <> wrote in
    > news:eek::
    >
    >> On 8 Nov 2004 17:56:52 GMT, Sam Hughes <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> It would have been neat if HTML had built-in form validation, in the
    >>> form of some sort of regular expression containing attribute.

    >>
    >> Then again, it's a Markup Language.

    >
    > Then again, the attribute would be describing the (future) content of the
    > form field.
    >
    > You capitalize Markup Language as if it were some kind of deity :p


    I did that to match HTML - HyperText Markup Language.

    The point is, if it could think that well, it wouldn't be a markup
    language anymore.
     
    Neal, Nov 9, 2004
    #19
  20. Also sprach Sam Hughes:

    > You capitalize Markup Language as if it were some kind of deity :p


    Maybe he thinks HTML stands for Holy Trinity's Markup Language.
     
    Thomas Mlynarczyk, Nov 10, 2004
    #20
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