[JOB] Possible ruby job in SF Bay Area

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005.

  1. This is an informal announcement of a possible position for
    an intermediate programmer with 2-3 years of experience in
    Ruby and C in the SF Bay Area.

    We are not sure yet if we will hire a full-time permanent
    person, or a part-time contractor for a 10 month project.
    Salary level for the full-time permanent position would
    likely be around 50-60K/year with university benefits. The
    contract rate would be adjusted upwards accordingly, but
    without benefits (AFAIK).

    This is really just an early "heads up". You're welcome to
    contact us, but the formal hiring process will probably not
    start for several months, and is dependent on funding.

    ======
    Skills
    ======

    Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    acceptable substitute.)

    GUI: Experienced with some GUI toolkit, pref. in Ruby.
    Completed at least one substantial GUI project.
    (We have used Fox and Tk in previous projects.)

    C: 1 year of professional work in C is preferred.

    Edu: BA in CS/EE, or other field of engineering or science.

    Also good to have:

    * OpenGL

    * Data modeling, database

    * Experience working in science/engineering

    * Interest or experience in traffic simulation (in
    particular, Paramics, though that's rather unlikely)

    * Interest in future of public transit

    * Some Windows development experience (MSVC). We develop for
    Windows, Linux, and Sun, but most users are on Windows.
    For this position, most development can be done on any
    platform that supports ruby and the selected GUI toolkit.

    * Some basic web site design and programming.

    ================
    Responsibilities
    ================

    The project is to continue development of a tool for
    modeling, simulation, and visualization of "bus rapid
    transit" (BRT) systems
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit). We are
    applying for FTA funding for about 10 months of work. Your
    role on the project will round out a team of 2 or 3 others,
    and will emphasize developing GUI tools that can be used by
    transit planners to design models of transit corridors and
    to conduct experiments based on simulations to evaluate the
    effectiveness of BRT options. Corridor models are stored in
    a hierarchical modeling languag called BRTML. Background on
    the project is at http://path.berkeley.edu/SMARTBRT.
    (There's software there, too, but it won't do anything
    useful unless you have Paramics, which is an expensive
    traffic simulation tool.) There will also be a GUI to
    interact with the running simulations and display event
    data, graphs, etc.

    The organization is California PATH, UC Berkeley,
    http://www.path.berkeley.edu, located at the Richmond Field
    Station, a 20 minute drive from campus. We do transportation
    research on a mix of federal, state, and industry funding,
    with an emphasis on using new technologies to improve the
    safety and performance of traffic and transit. Our group of
    about 50-60 people interacts closely with faculty and
    students in the College of Engineering. Sometimes we even
    get on the evening news
    (http://www2.cbs5.com/topstories/local_story_039192718.html).

    PATH has an interesting mix of people: engineers
    specializing in real-time systems, radios and wireless
    networking, sensors, automotive control, human factors;
    software people, both real-time and "soft"; automotive
    safety researchers; applied mathematicians; cognitive
    scientists. The organization is fairly flat and relaxed;
    it's about halfway between an academic department and a
    small engineering R&D company.

    The biggest downside of working here is the cost of living
    in the bay area, but you get what you pay for. Also, all of
    our funding is soft, so even "permanent" employees have no
    real job security (but turnover is very low).

    --
    Joel VanderWerf California PATH, UC Berkeley
    mailto: Ph. (510) 231-9446
    http://www.path.berkeley.edu FAX (510) 231-9565
     
    Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005
    #1
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  2. Joel VanderWerf

    Jamis Buck Guest

    On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    >
    > Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    > lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    > acceptable substitute.)


    Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)

    What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    definition of complex) Ruby project?

    - Jamis
     
    Jamis Buck, Mar 11, 2005
    #2
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  3. Joel VanderWerf

    Joao Pedrosa Guest

    Hi,

    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:37:08 +0900, Jamis Buck <> wrote:
    > On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    > >
    > > Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    > > lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    > > acceptable substitute.)

    >
    > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    >
    > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > definition of complex) Ruby project?


    I don't know. But > 50k LoC is a little bit over the top I think.
    Below that is reasonable. What's the biggest project in Ruby that
    people have heard of? I remember Rich Kilmer's and the site that Dave
    Thomas wrote. :)

    Cheers,
    Joao
     
    Joao Pedrosa, Mar 11, 2005
    #3
  4. Joel VanderWerf

    Luke Graham Guest

    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:44:59 +0900, Joao Pedrosa <> wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:37:08 +0900, Jamis Buck <> wrote:
    > > On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    > > > lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    > > > acceptable substitute.)

    > >
    > > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    > >
    > > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > > definition of complex) Ruby project?

    >
    > I don't know. But > 50k LoC is a little bit over the top I think.
    > Below that is reasonable. What's the biggest project in Ruby that
    > people have heard of? I remember Rich Kilmer's and the site that Dave
    > Thomas wrote. :)


    Im only up to 1.25k LoC in my current project, and thats my Ruby record.
    I dont expect it to break the 1.5k LoC mark. Theres that much again in
    handwritten xml input files though, does that count? :)

    --
    spooq
     
    Luke Graham, Mar 11, 2005
    #4
  5. Joel VanderWerf

    Luke Graham Guest

    Tallied up the (c++) output - around 32k Loc. :D


    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 14:55:58 +1000, Luke Graham <> wrote:
    > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:44:59 +0900, Joao Pedrosa <> wrote:
    > > Hi,
    > >
    > > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:37:08 +0900, Jamis Buck <> wrote:
    > > > On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    > > > > lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    > > > > acceptable substitute.)
    > > >
    > > > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > > > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > > > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > > > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    > > >
    > > > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > > > definition of complex) Ruby project?

    > >
    > > I don't know. But > 50k LoC is a little bit over the top I think.
    > > Below that is reasonable. What's the biggest project in Ruby that
    > > people have heard of? I remember Rich Kilmer's and the site that Dave
    > > Thomas wrote. :)

    >
    > Im only up to 1.25k LoC in my current project, and thats my Ruby record.
    > I dont expect it to break the 1.5k LoC mark. Theres that much again in
    > handwritten xml input files though, does that count? :)
    >
    > --
    > spooq
    >



    --
    spooq
     
    Luke Graham, Mar 11, 2005
    #5
  6. Joel VanderWerf

    Kirk Haines Guest

    Jamis Buck wrote:


    >> Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    >> lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    >> acceptable substitute.)

    >
    > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    >
    > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > definition of complex) Ruby project?


    Interesting question. I just went and did simple wc tallies of the ruby
    lines only out of a number of my larger web applications, not counting any
    of the HTML or email views, and the average non-trivial app seems to fall
    in the 2k to 4k range, with an average of about 20 bytes per line. The
    largest single app only has almost 8k LOC of Ruby (about 220kb of code),
    though if I wrote it today, it'd be probably less than 1/2 the LOC and
    1/3rd the number of bytes, leaving the largest at 7.3k LOC.

    None of the libraries that I have written come up to that size, either,
    unless one rolls tests into the count.


    Kirk Haines
     
    Kirk Haines, Mar 11, 2005
    #6
  7. Joel VanderWerf

    Dave Burt Guest

    Who's written 10kLOC? (was: [JOB] Possible ruby job in SF Bay Area)

    > Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    > lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    > acceptable substitute.)


    Jamis Buck:
    "... 8.5k lines"
    Luke Graham:
    "... 2k to 4k range"
    "... 7.3k LOC"

    And, IIRC:
    Rails: 2 kLOC
    Basecamp: 4 kLOC

    How much ruby code is in the ruby standard distribution, for comparison? I'd
    be guessing along these lines:
    core: 100 kLOC
    stdlib: 100 kLOC
    total in standard ruby 1.8.2: 250 kLOC

    Big hitters among these:
    rdoc: 16 kLOC
    rexml: 9 kLOC
    soap: 8.6 kLOC

    So the successful applicant will have written one of the (top 5?) largest
    Ruby projects in existence.

    Cheers,
    Dave
     
    Dave Burt, Mar 11, 2005
    #7
  8. Jamis Buck wrote:

    > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby
    > consisting of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib,
    > Net::SSH, is only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count
    > the unit tests, but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)


    I've always held to the old adage: If you've written 10K lines of Ruby
    code, then you're using it wrong.

    Wouldn't it be awesome if that were true?

    _why
     
    why the lucky stiff, Mar 11, 2005
    #8
  9. Jamis Buck wrote:
    > On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    >> lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    >> acceptable substitute.)

    >
    >
    > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    >
    > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > definition of complex) Ruby project?


    Hm, maybe that is not a useful criterion. A program is not better
    because it is larger. But it may not be fair to compare lines of
    library code with lines of application code.... you have to think (and
    test) harder for each line of library code.

    My current deliverable on another project (not related to the one in the
    announcement) is over 21K of ruby. That doesn't count blank lines and
    comments, or unit tests. It does count my own libraries, mostly written
    for this project. That's with frequent refactoring efforts, too. It's
    fairly dense. (And it generates 8K lines of C code.)

    For the predecessor to the announced project, the figure is 13K lines of
    ruby. Another project was 8.6K (some generated by racc, to be fair).

    For the job, I was thinking specifically of GUI code, which tends to
    inflate LOC at a faster rate than it inflates complexity, until you get
    tired of typing and put some effort into metaprogramming.
     
    Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005
    #9
  10. why the lucky stiff wrote:
    > I've always held to the old adage: If you've written 10K lines of Ruby
    > code, then you're using it wrong.
    >
    > Wouldn't it be awesome if that were true?


    Oooh... a MATLAB clone in 10KLOR. MegaGolf, anyone?
     
    Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005
    #10
  11. Jamis Buck wrote:
    > On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    >> lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    >> acceptable substitute.)

    >
    >
    > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    >
    > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > definition of complex) Ruby project?
    >


    FreeRIDE (the Ruby IDE) is roughly 20,000 LOC (25,000 lines with
    comments)

    Laurent
     
    Laurent Julliard, Mar 11, 2005
    #11
  12. On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:55:27 +0900, Laurent Julliard <> wrote:
    > Jamis Buck wrote:
    > > On Mar 10, 2005, at 8:20 PM, Joel VanderWerf wrote:
    > >
    > > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby consisting
    > > of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib, Net::SSH, is
    > > only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count the unit tests,
    > > but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)
    > >
    > > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > > definition of complex) Ruby project?
    > >

    >
    > FreeRIDE (the Ruby IDE) is roughly 20,000 LOC (25,000 lines with
    > comments)



    I have started from scratch 3 times with AEditor.
    Here are the line counts:

    aeditor 0: 3560 impl, 4962 test.
    aeditor 1: 6204 impl, 4689 test (more than 10k of lines).
    aeditor 2: 3161 impl, 3207 test.


    version 2 is much simpler and more robust than previous versions,
    even though its half the amount of code compared to version 1.
    It took me years to realize that my data structure was too complex.

    --
    Simon Strandgaard
     
    Simon Strandgaard, Mar 11, 2005
    #12
  13. > Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    > lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    > acceptable substitute.)


    While I think its great to see the job market get into drive, it would
    also be nice if we could avoid being as narrowly defined as the drone
    lines.

    I, for one, wouldn't fit the description above. Number of years is a
    utter lackluster indicator for job performance. Rewarding the use of
    10K lines in Ruby is also fairly questionable.

    Johanna Rothman has this great quote for getting out of such narrow
    defines:

    "If you still think you need some number of years of some language
    or environment, stop using shorthand and describe what deep
    knowledge
    you're looking for. Maybe you can find it some other way. Maybe you
    don't need some number of years, but you need some kind of
    application
    context"

    She's putting it a lot milder than I did on
    http://www.loudthinking.com/arc/000409.html
    --
    David Heinemeier Hansson,
    http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management
    http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby
    http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain
     
    David Heinemeier Hansson, Mar 11, 2005
    #13
  14. Excerpts from Jamis Buck's mail of 10 Mar 2005 (EST):
    > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > definition of complex) Ruby project?


    RubyTorrent is about 1700 loc for the libraries, and 2200 including
    utilities. It's among some of the most complex code I've ever written.

    I made an executive decision not to count "end" lines, so your count may
    be slightly higher.

    --
    William <>
     
    William Morgan, Mar 11, 2005
    #14
  15. 50-60k in SF? Wow.



    On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 12:20:49 +0900, Joel VanderWerf
    <> wrote:
    > This is an informal announcement of a possible position for
    > an intermediate programmer with 2-3 years of experience in
    > Ruby and C in the SF Bay Area.
     
    Michael Campbell, Mar 11, 2005
    #15
  16. * Jamis Buck (Mar 11, 2005 14:10):
    > Just curious: how many people have written a project in Ruby
    > consisting of over 10K lines of code? Even my own most complex lib,
    > Net::SSH, is only 8.5k lines. (Well, I guess it's 16.7k if you count
    > the unit tests, but I'm still curious as to how common this is.)


    > What is the average LOC for a typical "complex" (for some arbitrary
    > definition of complex) Ruby project?


    My current project (unveiled shortly) is currently above the mark.
    However, most of the code is written in C that is then interfaced to
    Ruby. This is done exclusively for performance reasons. I'd say that
    the Ruby code would still have reached a sizeable number of lines, but
    perhaps not as many as the C + Ruby version.

    Anyway, the >10K loc in Ruby is unrealistic I'd say. As you say,
    Net::SSH is complex, perhaps one of the most complex public libraries
    written solely in Ruby; yet it's only 8.5K loc,
    nikolai

    --
    ::: name: Nikolai Weibull :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
    ::: born: Chicago, IL USA :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden :::
    ::: page: www.pcppopper.org :: fun atm: gf,lps,ruby,lisp,war3 :::
    main(){printf(&linux["\021%six\012\0"],(linux)["have"]+"fun"-97);}
     
    Nikolai Weibull, Mar 11, 2005
    #16
  17. Michael Campbell wrote:
    > 50-60k in SF? Wow.


    Yes, wow. There are a lot of us trying to live at that rate, or below...

    Thanks for the feedback. My management needs to know that certain salary
    levels are unrealistic.
     
    Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005
    #17
  18. On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:48:41 +0900, Joel VanderWerf
    <> wrote:
    > Michael Campbell wrote:
    > > 50-60k in SF? Wow.

    >
    > Yes, wow. There are a lot of us trying to live at that rate, or below...


    There's something to be said for doing what you love.

    > Thanks for the feedback. My management needs to know that certain salary
    > levels are unrealistic.


    Well, that depends. *I* couldn't live at that wage, at least not "in
    the manner to which I (and my family) have become accustomed".

    I mean, you're always going to be able to get SOMEONE for almost any
    job at any wage, but considering what you're asking for, the salary
    seems extraordinarily low to me. That said, I haven't looked at the
    conditions in SF lately; the last time I was there in any sort of
    employment context was 1996, so things may have changed greatly since
    then.
     
    Michael Campbell, Mar 11, 2005
    #18
  19. David Heinemeier Hansson wrote:
    >> Ruby: 2 years, responsible for at least one project of >10K
    >> lines. (Strong Lisp/SmallTalk background may be an
    >> acceptable substitute.)

    >
    >
    > While I think its great to see the job market get into drive, it would
    > also be nice if we could avoid being as narrowly defined as the drone
    > lines.


    You're right. I always hated reading any job posting that was just a
    hash of <acronym> => <years>.

    > I, for one, wouldn't fit the description above. Number of years is a
    > utter lackluster indicator for job performance. Rewarding the use of
    > 10K lines in Ruby is also fairly questionable.


    Regarding years: note that the announcement mentioned the equivalence of
    Lisp/SmallTalk. I had hoped that the implication was for the applicant
    to be comfortable with closures, recursion, metaprogramming,
    concurrency, etc.: in short, a basic understanding of most of SICP
    (oops, another acronym). I should have said that to begin with...

    Regarding program size: I disagree. Our application is large because our
    subject matter is large in an irreducible way. The app needs to interact
    with 3rd party software that has its own highly complex (and often
    poorly designed) input/output system. It needs to do a large variety of
    geometrical calculations (not difficult ones). The programmer for this
    job needs to be comfortable with managing a large number of ugly
    details. That skill is distinct (though of course not exclusive) from
    writing a lovely little ruby library.

    Thank you, David, for making me be more explicit.
     
    Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005
    #19
  20. [OT] SF Bay Area

    Michael Campbell wrote:
    > I mean, you're always going to be able to get SOMEONE for almost any
    > job at any wage, but considering what you're asking for, the salary
    > seems extraordinarily low to me. That said, I haven't looked at the
    > conditions in SF lately; the last time I was there in any sort of
    > employment context was 1996, so things may have changed greatly since
    > then.


    This is heading off topic, but the cost of living in the Bay Area in the
    last 10 years has gone up by a factor of 2 or so. Apartment rents have
    stabilized since 2000, but house prices increase 20% every year.

    So, I agree. The 50K-60K figure is low. I'll try to find out what the
    hourly contract rate would be.
     
    Joel VanderWerf, Mar 11, 2005
    #20
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