K&R Wishlist

[Mark McIntyre]

In the US, the first digital electronic computer wasn't the ENIAC but
the Atanasoff-Berry Computer, built at Iowa State University by John
Atanasoff and Cliff Berry. They had a working prototype in 1939.

I believe this is a little inaccurate - they had a design and very
basic prototype in 1939. The prototype however wasn't an actual
computer (as you obliquely note further down in your original post).

It did earn them a grant of $850 (wow!) to build the real thing, but
they were still working it when the US entered the war in '41, and it
wasn't finished. It was bizarrely destroyed by the university during
Atanasoff's absence during the war.

The relationship of this to ENIAC was the subject of a celebrated
court case in the early 70's I believe.

 

[Tim Rentsch]

I believe this is a little inaccurate - they had a design and very
basic prototype in 1939. The prototype however wasn't an actual
computer (as you obliquely note further down in your original post).

I agree it wasn't a computer in the same sense that we think of them
now, but I think the statement was fair given the context of what I
was responding to (which was snipped). Also I would say my statement
(also snipped) that contrasted the ABC as a special purpose computer
against Turing-complete computers was clear and direct; nothing
oblique about it. In any case, the ABC was enough of a computer so
that the patents resulting from the Eckert-Mauchly work were held in
court not to be valid (these had been acquired by Sperry-Rand, and the
case was Honeywell vs Sperry-Rand, IIRC.)

The relationship of this to ENIAC was the subject of a celebrated
court case in the early 70's I believe.

IIRC the patent case (a *very* important case) was in the 1950's, and
the later case was about something else, like making false advertising
claims. I believe the ruling in the second case included language
that gave credit for "the first digital electronic computer" to the
ABC.

 

[Richard Bos]

Yes, and yes. Check your dictionary, mate. And visit Czechia. (No,
really. Do. You can't knock Pilsener until you've tasted it.)

*sigh*
Beer is warm, dark in colour and does NOT have vast amounts of CO2 in
it. Whatever Lager is, its not Beer....[/QUOTE]

You should take your horse to the vet.

Richard

 

[Mabden]

I agree it wasn't a computer in the same sense that we think of them
now, but I think the statement was fair given the context of what I
was responding to (which was snipped). Also I would say my statement
(also snipped) that contrasted the ABC as a special purpose computer
against Turing-complete computers was clear and direct; nothing
oblique about it. In any case, the ABC was enough of a computer so
that the patents resulting from the Eckert-Mauchly work were held in
court not to be valid (these had been acquired by Sperry-Rand, and the
case was Honeywell vs Sperry-Rand, IIRC.)



IIRC the patent case (a *very* important case) was in the 1950's, and
the later case was about something else, like making false advertising
claims. I believe the ruling in the second case included language
that gave credit for "the first digital electronic computer" to the
ABC.

<yawn> Someone get back to me when I'm proven right.

In the mean time I find it amusing when the UK guys and the German guys
fight over who made the first inroads with counting machines or
translators or whatever. I think if you are going to count Babbage's
D.E., you'd have give a nod to the Oriental Abacus. And if you do that
then you might as well say that the PDA or PIM (invented in America, I
think ["but I may be wrong" - damn should have put that in once or twice
in my OP!] you are carting around was first thought of by the Druids who
built Stonehenge to track whatever the hell it tracks (doesn't matter,
since a PDA tracks whatever it tracks, too).

I mean, I'm talking about race cars and you guys are trying to credit
Ogg the inventor of the wheel with creating the original prototype...

 

[Skarmander]

Mabden wrote:
[discussion on when and where the first computer was invented]

<yawn> Someone get back to me when I'm proven right.

Verification failure: process has deadlock.

In the mean time I find it amusing when the UK guys and the German guys
fight over who made the first inroads with counting machines or
translators or whatever. I think if you are going to count Babbage's
D.E., you'd have give a nod to the Oriental Abacus.

Nodding is fine. Calling it a computer would be more than a stretch, but
if that's the definition you apply, it's good.

You may not agree with people's definitions of what a computer is. That
doesn't mean they think that anything goes.

And if you do that then you might as well say that the PDA or PIM
(invented in America, I think ["but I may be wrong" - damn should
have put that in once or twice in my OP!] you are carting around was
first thought of by the Druids who built Stonehenge to track whatever
the hell it tracks (doesn't matter, since a PDA tracks whatever it
tracks, too).

Yeah, once you're on a slippery slope you can slide all the way to the
bottom, and further still.

I mean, I'm talking about race cars and you guys are trying to credit
Ogg the inventor of the wheel with creating the original prototype...

You're right. The computer *you* are thinking of was invented in America.

Now let's all start new threads. That have to do with C.

S.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Mabden said:

In the mean time I find it amusing when the UK guys and the German guys
fight over who made the first inroads with counting machines or
translators or whatever.

I see you've finally noticed that this is an international newsgroup.

Well done.

Back to C now, yes?

 

[Mabden]

You're right. The computer *you* are thinking of was invented in America.

Now let's all start new threads. That have to do with C.

I can't deny you are correct on both points.

Errrmm... You didn't actually have any content that I missed, at all,
did you?

 

[Mabden]

Mabden said:


I see you've finally noticed that this is an international newsgroup.

Oh, and Canada and USA are just America, huh?! You Scots always Welsh
when you get your Irish up, you Ozzie pommies.

Well done.

Medium rare. But what can you expect from someone who eats boiled
meats...

Oh, to not pick on the Brits as far as boiled meats. So many people boil
lobsters. DO NOT BOIL A LOBSTER!!! What's up with boiling one of the
most expensive meats that exist (oh, ****, now the Kobe beef and
blowfish people are going to chime in - not my fault!) You grill a
lobster you Philistines!!! If you MUST boil a lobster, why not throw in
a jar of caviar (sp?) for flavour. I would make it a new thread because
it affects all C programmers, but I would weep at the amount of "OT"
posts.

Back to C now, yes?

Oh, yes. Hey, YOU were the one who brought up the lobsters!!!

 

[Skarmander]

I can't deny you are correct on both points.

Looking good so far.

Errrmm... You didn't actually have any content that I missed, at all,
did you?

Whoa, there we go again. We're lucky I have no ego.

If this thread still ain't over, I'm still definitely done with it.

S.

 

[Michael Mair]

You should take your horse to the vet.

Hilarious! Dry and to the point...

Cheers
Michael

 

[Mark McIntyre]

Mabden wrote:
[discussion on when and where the first computer was invented]

<yawn> Someone get back to me when I'm proven right.

I mean, I'm talking about race cars and you guys are trying to credit
Ogg the inventor of the wheel with creating the original prototype...

Sure, if you choose to re define "first computer" to some suitable
reference for your purposes, you can 'prove' anything you like. Do you
perhaps see the tiny flaw in this approach?

 

[Mark McIntyre]

(of lager)

You should take your horse to the vet.

I quite agree. Whatever horse p*ssed that stuff out should be shot...

gd&r...

 

[Mabden]

Mabden wrote:
[discussion on when and where the first computer was invented]

<yawn> Someone get back to me when I'm proven right.

I mean, I'm talking about race cars and you guys are trying to credit
Ogg the inventor of the wheel with creating the original

prototype...

Sure, if you choose to re define "first computer" to some suitable
reference for your purposes, you can 'prove' anything you like. Do you
perhaps see the tiny flaw in this approach?

Perhaps. My thought was Personal Computer. Later I spoke of the PDA as
something separate, yet it is just a small computer and harkens back to
the Enigma Machine or Difference Engine or whatever they were fighting
about; ENIAC and Maniacs or something. One thing is certain, however. I
was NOT talking about some room-sized computer made of vacuum tubes and
relay switches. Nor something like an abacus, or cash register.

I was really meaning (in my head) the paradigm shift; the concept. The
"two guys in a garage" putting together something new from parts they
got from Radio Shack. William Gates III did not invent BASIC or write
DOS, but he sure as Hell created MicroSoft.

People were saying that "outsourcing" doesn't mean only jobs leaving the
USA and going to foreign countries, namely India and China; although
Mexico and Canada began the trend early than that. They were saying that
the whole world doesn't resolve around the US, and so I shot off a bunch
of examples of America things that were ubiquitous around the world. I
was talking about the PC, Windows, books (again, really meaning, in my
head, the technical books that the programming crowd would probably
have, as I do, around my desk within immediate reach). Then I got
carried away and started to (read "continued to", if you like) spout
nonsense about fonts and protocols, and so on. My bad there. Then I made
the biggest mistake, as I believe most would agree, in missing the
delete button and hitting send instead. ;-)

 

[Fao, Sean]

My personal K&R (3rd edition) wish list:

[...]

Is somebody just hoping to get a K&R 3rd edition or is there *real* talk
about releasing an updated version of the text?

 

[storm.kbot]

My personal K&R (3rd edition) wish list:
7. Make an appendix with the full ascii table.

If you are using an UNIX style OS (like Linux), you can use the
command:
$ man ascii
It's a much better way than having to search into the book.

PS: The only time I saw a ASCII table in a C book it's was into the
infamous "C: for Dummies".

 

[Ben Pfaff]

Is somebody just hoping to get a K&R 3rd edition or is there *real* talk
about releasing an updated version of the text?

K or R (don't recall who) was asked about it some time ago and
said there were no plans for a 3rd edition.

 

[Fao, Sean]

If you are using an UNIX style OS (like Linux), you can use the
command:
$ man ascii
It's a much better way than having to search into the book.

PS: The only time I saw a ASCII table in a C book it's was into the
infamous "C: for Dummies".

C For Dummies? Talk about an oxymoron.

I've glanced over only a single "for Dummies" book and it was probably
the worst book I ever wasted my time on. That along with the "Learn
[enter something here] in 24 Hours" books have always been worthless.

 

[Skarmander]

C For Dummies? Talk about an oxymoron.

<snip>

- Google offers a big library of ready-made C code. Use it to your
advantage.

- Should Google fail, try any book with a title ending on "in C".
Chances are, what you want to do is in one of them.

- If all else fails and you need to write a program yourself, don't
panic. Start from something that vaguely resembles the problem you're
trying to tackle and begin modifying it at random.

- If you get a warning or error that involves the word "pointer", look
at the offending line and add or remove * and & characters until the
error goes away.

- If you're really stumped on something, use Usenet (see "Usenet for
Dummies") and ask a question on comp.lang.c. The friendly folks there
stand at your attention to answer any question that involves C. You may
get a lot of responses that don't directly answer your question; just
ignore these.

S.

 

[Keith Thompson]

- If you get a warning or error that involves the word "pointer", look
at the offending line and add or remove * and & characters until the
error goes away.

I'm not sure that's very good advice. It's better to study the error
message and the code it refers to until you *understand* why the
compiler complained, and how to write the code correctly.

The "add or remove stuff until the error goes away" technique is what
leads to things like extraneous casts that mask real errors. In the
case of pointers, you can easily end up using the address of an array
where you really need the address of its first element; if you're
passing it to printf(), you might not even get a warning from your
compiler.

To understand pointers:

1. Read a good tutorial book on C. K&R2 is one of the best.

2. Read the FAQ, sections 4 (Pointer), 5 (Null Pointers), and 6
(Arrays and Pointers). (And read the rest of the FAQ while you're
at it.)

If you don't understand what the FAQ is telling you, it's probably a
sign that you need to go back to your tutorial. If you do understand
everything the FAQ says, you've probably got a pretty good
understanding of the language. (Remember that the FAQ is not a good
starting point; it's designed to clear up misconceptions that you
might acquire while learning the language, not to teach the language
from scratch.)

- If you're really stumped on something, use Usenet (see "Usenet for
Dummies") and ask a question on comp.lang.c. The friendly folks therenn
stand at your attention to answer any question that involves C. You
may get a lot of responses that don't directly answer your question;
just ignore these.

If the response tells you that your question is off-topic, please
don't ignore it. It can be difficult for a newbie to know whether
something is part of the standard C language or a system-specific
extension. We discuss the former here; for the latter, you'll need a
system-specific newsgroup.

 

[Skarmander]

I'm not sure that's very good advice. It's better to study the error
message and the code it refers to until you *understand* why the
compiler complained, and how to write the code correctly.

<snip>

I'm going to assume you pulled a meta-joke by taking my suggestions
seriously... or otherwise you're trying to get some warming-up for an
improved "C for Dummies" book.

In which case, I'll want royalties.

S.