lacking follow-through

Discussion in 'Python' started by castironpi, Sep 7, 2008.

  1. castironpi

    castironpi Guest

    I am concerned by the lack of follow-through on some responses to
    recent ideas I have described. Do I merely have a wrong understanding
    of group policy? Is it a good policy (defined with respect to the
    future of Python and the welfare of humans at large) if so? Is there
    a serious lack of diligence, or should I merely take more initiative,
    and ignore charges of 'pestering'? (Warning, moderately deep outside
    social issues on table too.)
    castironpi, Sep 7, 2008
    #1
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  2. castironpi

    James Mills Guest

    Hi,

    This is the strangest post I've seen
    since I've joined this list (only
    recently). What the ?

    cheers
    James

    On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 7:00 AM, castironpi <> wrote:
    > I am concerned by the lack of follow-through on some responses to
    > recent ideas I have described. Do I merely have a wrong understanding
    > of group policy? Is it a good policy (defined with respect to the
    > future of Python and the welfare of humans at large) if so? Is there
    > a serious lack of diligence, or should I merely take more initiative,
    > and ignore charges of 'pestering'? (Warning, moderately deep outside
    > social issues on table too.)
    > --
    > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
    >




    --
    --
    -- "Problems are solved by method"
    James Mills, Sep 7, 2008
    #2
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  3. En Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:00:30 -0300, castironpi <> escribió:

    > I am concerned by the lack of follow-through on some responses to
    > recent ideas I have described. Do I merely have a wrong understanding
    > of group policy? Is it a good policy (defined with respect to the
    > future of Python and the welfare of humans at large) if so? Is there
    > a serious lack of diligence, or should I merely take more initiative,
    > and ignore charges of 'pestering'? (Warning, moderately deep outside
    > social issues on table too.)


    Maybe people just doesn't have anything to say?
    Last thing I remember from you, is some mmap-based tree, and I'm not interested.

    --
    Gabriel Genellina
    Gabriel Genellina, Sep 7, 2008
    #3
  4. On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:34:55 +1000, James Mills wrote:

    > This is the strangest post I've seen
    > since I've joined this list (only
    > recently). What the ?


    Yeah, castironpi sometimes doesn't make much sense. Maybe because it's a
    bot!? :)

    Ciao,
    Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch
    Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch, Sep 7, 2008
    #4
  5. castironpi

    castironpi Guest

    On Sep 7, 5:03 pm, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch <> wrote:
    > On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:34:55 +1000, James Mills wrote:
    > > This is the strangest post I've seen
    > > since I've joined this list (only
    > > recently). What the ?

    >
    > Yeah, castironpi sometimes doesn't make much sense.  Maybe because it's a
    > bot!?  :)
    >
    > Ciao,
    >         Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch


    No, I'm legit, and I believe my complaint is. That's all I can
    guarantee anyway. While I'm still not a vet on Usenet, I'm still
    disappointed so far. Though I should be flattered for my logic to be
    ever compared to an A.I.'s.

    Maybe the ideas are not that groundbreaking, but they still have been
    dropped instead of critiqued. Problem.
    castironpi, Sep 7, 2008
    #5
  6. castironpi

    Eric Wertman Guest

    +1 Bot
    Eric Wertman, Sep 7, 2008
    #6
  7. Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:

    > Yeah, castironpi sometimes doesn't make much sense. Maybe because it's a
    > bot!? :)


    if so, they sure don't make c.l.py bots like they used to, do they?

    </F>
    Fredrik Lundh, Sep 7, 2008
    #7
  8. castironpi

    John Machin Guest

    On Sep 8, 8:36 am, Fredrik Lundh <> wrote:
    > Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote:
    > > Yeah, castironpi sometimes doesn't make much sense.  Maybe because it's a
    > > bot!?  :)

    >
    > if so, they sure don't make c.l.py bots like they used to, do they?
    >
    > </F>


    That's correct. This one seems to have an anger management module :)
    John Machin, Sep 7, 2008
    #8
  9. On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:34:55 +1000, James Mills wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > This is the strangest post I've seen
    > since I've joined this list (only
    > recently). What the ?


    Oh don't mind castironpi, many people think he's an IRC bot with some
    experimental AI features that escaped onto Usenet *grins*. If you think
    that post of his was strange, you haven't seen anything yet. Many people
    have kill-filed him, and never even see his posts.

    A word to castironpi: you just suggested you will pester the list to get
    a response. It's behaviour like that which gets you kill-filed. If you
    would spend one tenth of the effort that you spend on understand Python
    on understanding human psychology, you will probably get on with others
    much better and find fewer people claiming you're a bot.

    Even if you yourself don't understand how others behave and expect you to
    behave, think of it as an intellectual puzzle: how can I fool the strange
    hairless apes into accepting me into their herd?



    --
    Steven
    Steven D'Aprano, Sep 7, 2008
    #9
  10. castironpi

    castironpi Guest

    On Sep 7, 5:45 pm, Steven D'Aprano <st...@REMOVE-THIS-
    cybersource.com.au> wrote:
    > On Mon, 08 Sep 2008 07:34:55 +1000, James Mills wrote:
    > > Hi,

    >
    > > This is the strangest post I've seen
    > > since I've joined this list (only
    > > recently). What the ?

    >
    > Oh don't mind castironpi, many people think he's an IRC bot with some
    > experimental AI features that escaped onto Usenet *grins*. If you think
    > that post of his was strange, you haven't seen anything yet. Many people
    > have kill-filed him, and never even see his posts.
    >
    > A word to castironpi: you just suggested you will pester the list to get
    > a response. It's behaviour like that which gets you kill-filed. If you
    > would spend one tenth of the effort that you spend on understand Python
    > on understanding human psychology, you will probably get on with others
    > much better and find fewer people claiming you're a bot.
    >
    > Even if you yourself don't understand how others behave and expect you to
    > behave, think of it as an intellectual puzzle: how can I fool the strange
    > hairless apes into accepting me into their herd?
    >
    > --
    > Steven


    First, gauge their persistence tolerance. Some people are not
    persistent enough. I don't want to annoy you, and I want to show
    interest, but of course no more than I actually feel. Are my
    standards too low, or too high?

    Second, debate the reverse psychology tack. Claim I'm a bot to shake
    their belief? Or call them bots? Perhaps they are. Bots with
    cooties. Yes.
    castironpi, Sep 8, 2008
    #10
  11. castironpi

    Paul Boddie Guest

    On 7 Sep, 23:00, castironpi <> wrote:
    > I am concerned by the lack of follow-through on some responses to
    > recent ideas I have described. Do I merely have a wrong understanding
    > of group policy?


    I think some people have taken exception to your contributions
    previously, which I believe exhibits a certain degree of
    shortsightedness on their part, considering for example the recent
    thread which brought up just-in-time compilation techniques where
    there were pretty valid reasons for keeping the thread going.
    Certainly, it wasn't as if the level of discussion was stuck at basic
    contradiction or mudslinging, and even if reading the different papers
    on the topic might help an inquirer on the matter, there's certainly
    nothing wrong with seeking guidance over which papers might be the
    best ones, nor with seeking some kind of context for that work within
    the realm of Python implementations, especially given the recent glut
    of news on virtual machine improvements for other dynamic languages.

    > Is it a good policy (defined with respect to the
    > future of Python and the welfare of humans at large) if so? Is there
    > a serious lack of diligence, or should I merely take more initiative,
    > and ignore charges of 'pestering'? (Warning, moderately deep outside
    > social issues on table too.)


    I'm no expert on getting other people to embrace ideas, but here's my
    advice anyway. If you have an idea and can describe it coherently,
    please do so; this won't guarantee positive responses, but there may
    be people out there who feel that you're onto something. If the idea
    has merit - generally, the most reliable way to know involves you
    personally experiencing difficulties in a problem area where the idea
    in question promises to alleviate some of those difficulties - then by
    developing that idea, typically producing something that others can
    try out, people will know that you mean business. Alternatively,
    people might point you to existing work that will address the problems
    you're having, saving you the bother of having to write a load of code
    to enact that idea of yours.

    You can be lucky and have people chasing you down over what you've
    produced, but I'd argue that most of the time, for any given idea
    which becomes a project, you'll have a few people interested in what
    you've done, but the motivation for continuing will be something that
    will depend on yourself and your own needs. You have to accept that
    even if you think that people (and Python) might be well served in
    listening to what you have to say, that message may go unheard.

    Once upon a time, the BDFL and the most central core developers used
    to read comp.lang.python and ideas about Python's future were
    exchanged readily. Today, all lobbying takes place on the python-dev/
    3000/ideas mailing lists, but those lists are more conservative with
    regard to contributions than comp.lang.python (python-list). Perhaps
    as a consequence, the divide between those steering the language and
    those using it has grown: "producers" use the aforementioned lists,
    "consumers" argue with each other on the newsgroup, and it might be in
    the release notes that you learn about happenings that previously
    would have been reported more widely elsewhere. Certainly, influencing
    the future of Python, at least officially, is a lot more hard work
    than it used to be.

    One may decide to worry about this, along with matters like how Python
    will remain able to compete with other languages and platforms. I
    regard the future development of Python as a process which may not
    necessarily serve my interests, but since the community around Python
    is so much larger and more diverse than those following every last
    Python 3.0 commit, I see no need to become agitated by the direction
    of the language developers. Since Python is Free Software one has,
    after all, a lot of flexibility when deciding who to associate with
    and who to influence, and it is ultimately only through trying to
    achieve things with the technology that one's priorities (or the
    things one should be worrying about) emerge. For me, then, influencing
    Python 3.x isn't a priority since I have enough to be thinking about
    and working on, and I wonder if I'll ever do anything with Python 3.x
    anyway.

    So, I suppose, the message is this: follow your own interests, make
    contributions in the ways that make sense to you, seek contact with
    like-minded developers in groups which might be remote from mainstream
    Python development (find an appropriate, potentially specialised
    audience); these things will define any need you may have to influence
    others.

    Paul
    Paul Boddie, Sep 8, 2008
    #11
  12. castironpi

    MRAB Guest

    On Sep 7, 11:28 pm, "Eric Wertman" <> wrote:
    > +1 Bot


    I think it's like duck typing: it doesn't matter whether he's actually
    a bot, only whether he behaves like one.
    MRAB, Sep 8, 2008
    #12
  13. castironpi

    castironpi Guest

    On Sep 7, 7:34 pm, MRAB <> wrote:
    > On Sep 7, 11:28 pm, "Eric Wertman" <> wrote:
    >
    > > +1 Bot

    >
    > I think it's like duck typing: it doesn't matter whether he's actually
    > a bot, only whether he behaves like one.


    Do you support the bot interface and methods?
    castironpi, Sep 8, 2008
    #13
  14. castironpi

    Asun Friere Guest

    On Sep 8, 7:00 am, castironpi <> wrote:
    > I am concerned by the lack of follow-through on some responses to
    > recent ideas I have described. Do I merely have a wrong understanding
    > of group policy?


    [snip]

    Perhaps the wrong idea of what the group is. I would have thought
    that
    if one had a sufficiently developed idea and wanted to have it /
    formally/
    rejected, rather than merely sniped at, then writting a PEP would be
    more
    apposite than posting to c.l.py.

    It's fine to post your not sufficiently developed ideas here merely
    to
    have them discussed. But I don't know what makes you feel that you,
    or
    your ideas, are /entitled/ to any response at all, much less
    "follow-through."
    Asun Friere, Sep 8, 2008
    #14
  15. castironpi

    Eric Wertman Guest

    > Perhaps the wrong idea of what the group is. I would have thought
    > that
    > if one had a sufficiently developed idea and wanted to have it /
    > formally/
    > rejected, rather than merely sniped at, then writting a PEP would be
    > more
    > apposite than posting to c.l.py.
    >
    > It's fine to post your not sufficiently developed ideas here merely
    > to
    > have them discussed. But I don't know what makes you feel that you,
    > or
    > your ideas, are /entitled/ to any response at all, much less
    > "follow-through."



    To expand on this a little bit, I've been subscribed to this group
    for a couple of months, but there seems to be a bit more gray area
    between what would go to a 'python-dev' group and a 'python-user'
    group. Long debates about language features and abstract ideas would
    appeal to the former, but not the latter. Certainly I fall into the
    user category.. I'm pretty happy with python, and generally just
    adjust to it's design and features, rather than spend lots of time on
    whether they are 'right' or could be 'better'. /shrug
    Eric Wertman, Sep 8, 2008
    #15
  16. castironpi

    Dan Upton Guest

    On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:59 PM, castironpi <> wrote:
    > On Sep 7, 7:34 pm, MRAB <> wrote:
    >> On Sep 7, 11:28 pm, "Eric Wertman" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > +1 Bot

    >>
    >> I think it's like duck typing: it doesn't matter whether he's actually
    >> a bot, only whether he behaves like one.

    >
    > Do you support the bot interface and methods?
    > --


    And this is an example of why you get +1 bot.
    Dan Upton, Sep 8, 2008
    #16
  17. castironpi

    castironpi Guest

    On Sep 8, 11:23 am, "Dan Upton" <> wrote:
    > On Sun, Sep 7, 2008 at 10:59 PM, castironpi <> wrote:
    > > On Sep 7, 7:34 pm, MRAB <> wrote:
    > >> On Sep 7, 11:28 pm, "Eric Wertman" <> wrote:

    >
    > >> > +1 Bot

    >
    > >> I think it's like duck typing: it doesn't matter whether he's actually
    > >> a bot, only whether he behaves like one.

    >
    > > Do you support the bot interface and methods?
    > > --

    >
    > And this is an example of why you get +1 bot.


    I took Eric's comment to be a joke and mine was too. I don't get the
    feeling yours is, no offense.
    castironpi, Sep 8, 2008
    #17
  18. castironpi

    castironpi Guest

    On Sep 8, 2:04 pm, "Chris Rebert" <> wrote:
    > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Eric Wertman <> wrote:
    > >> Perhaps the wrong idea of what the group is.  I would have thought
    > >> that
    > >> if one had a sufficiently developed idea and wanted to have it /
    > >> formally/
    > >> rejected, rather than merely sniped at, then writting a PEP would be
    > >> more
    > >> apposite than posting to c.l.py.

    >
    > >> It's fine to post your not sufficiently developed ideas here merely
    > >> to
    > >> have them discussed.  But I don't know what makes you feel that you,
    > >> or
    > >> your ideas, are /entitled/ to any response at all, much less
    > >> "follow-through."

    >
    > > To expand on this a little bit,  I've been subscribed to this group
    > > for a couple of months, but there seems to be a bit more gray area
    > > between what would go to a 'python-dev'  group and a 'python-user'
    > > group.   Long debates about language features and abstract ideas would
    > > appeal to the former, but not the latter.  Certainly I fall into the
    > > user category..  I'm pretty happy with python, and generally just
    > > adjust to it's design and features, rather than spend lots of time on
    > > whether they are 'right' or could be 'better'.  /shrug

    >
    > Yeah, suggestions about changing the language are much better suited
    > to the more-specific Python-ideas or Python-3000 mailinglists than the
    > general-purpose c.l.p
    > - Chris
    >
    > > --
    > >http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

    >
    > --
    > Follow the path of the Iguana...http://rebertia.com


    Some of the core devs from Python-Ideas have suggested that I get some
    of my ideas started on c.l.py. Also, I'm looking for people to
    connect with and interact with about Python and none of the core devs
    have time, which makes c.l.py the place. I'm starting to get
    discouraged, as though there's no one really interested in this cool
    thing I'm thinking of. Or did I just not describe it well? It would
    be safe to assume that people read my post, understood it, and weren't
    interested, except that a few replies came, and then it was dropped
    without any obvious explanation.

    Further, and I'm sad to report this, I found tempers really high
    strung on the Ideas list, so c.l.py may have more potential anyway,
    with more young and flexible users. Not to say that the core devs are
    old or brittle or anything, just that their time is already devoted
    and they don't have time for people like me.
    castironpi, Sep 8, 2008
    #18
  19. castironpi

    Terry Reedy Guest

    Chris Rebert wrote:
    > On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 9:03 AM, Eric Wertman <> wrote:


    >> To expand on this a little bit, I've been subscribed to this group
    >> for a couple of months, but there seems to be a bit more gray area
    >> between what would go to a 'python-dev' group and a 'python-user'
    >> group. Long debates about language features and abstract ideas would
    >> appeal to the former, but not the latter.


    The py-dev mailing list, and its gmane.comp.python.devel mirror, is for
    concrete discussion, mostly by developers, of how to develop the current
    and next release. The current focus in on finishing 2.6 for release.

    Almost nothing that has appeared here recently belongs there. It is
    much more common for people to post there usage questions that belong
    here or speculative issues that could also go to python-ideas.

    >> Certainly I fall into the
    >> user category.. I'm pretty happy with python, and generally just
    >> adjust to it's design and features, rather than spend lots of time on
    >> whether they are 'right' or could be 'better'. /shrug


    Long rehashes of decided issues, like the name of subprocess.popen, or
    the default of sum(), belong here better than anywhere else, if anywhere
    ;-).

    > Yeah, suggestions about changing the language are much better suited
    > to the more-specific Python-ideas or Python-3000 mailinglists than the
    > general-purpose c.l.p


    The Python-3000 mailing list, and the gmane.comp.python.python-3.devel
    mirror, is the py-dev equivalent for python3-specific issues.

    tjr
    Terry Reedy, Sep 8, 2008
    #19
  20. castironpi

    Robert Kern Guest

    Eric Wertman wrote:
    >> Perhaps the wrong idea of what the group is. I would have thought
    >> that
    >> if one had a sufficiently developed idea and wanted to have it /
    >> formally/
    >> rejected, rather than merely sniped at, then writting a PEP would be
    >> more
    >> apposite than posting to c.l.py.
    >>
    >> It's fine to post your not sufficiently developed ideas here merely
    >> to
    >> have them discussed. But I don't know what makes you feel that you,
    >> or
    >> your ideas, are /entitled/ to any response at all, much less
    >> "follow-through."

    >
    > To expand on this a little bit, I've been subscribed to this group
    > for a couple of months, but there seems to be a bit more gray area
    > between what would go to a 'python-dev' group and a 'python-user'
    > group. Long debates about language features and abstract ideas would
    > appeal to the former, but not the latter. Certainly I fall into the
    > user category.. I'm pretty happy with python, and generally just
    > adjust to it's design and features, rather than spend lots of time on
    > whether they are 'right' or could be 'better'. /shrug


    Actually, python-dev is for the concrete development of Python. Releases, bugs,
    and occasionally design discussions for relevant features. Long debates about
    potential features and abstract ideas belong either here or python-ideas.

    --
    Robert Kern

    "I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
    that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
    an underlying truth."
    -- Umberto Eco
    Robert Kern, Sep 9, 2008
    #20
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