Language Popularity - PHP vs Ruby?

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by Marc Heiler, Nov 6, 2007.

  1. Marc Heiler

    Marc Heiler Guest

    Hi,

    I decided to make this _rather_ short, because I think noone wants
    to read a lot of long stuff. It is still too long though.
    But please believe me, I thought some time about the content.

    On http://www.langpop.com/ the author has some nice graphs.
    The trend seems to show that PHP is (still) a very popular
    language. PHP at the same time however, is a horrible
    language compared to ruby. I also do NOT at all believe
    that any speed difference was an important factor for
    PHP's popularity rise, nor is today. I think PHP benefitted
    from a growing web world, and in return helped (foster)
    the web world grow as well, together with apache and MySQL.
    (I remember the perl-cgi days ... )

    Ruby has Rails, but Rails needs more libraries, and Rails has a
    very specific world-view (MVC) whereas PHP basically just cares
    about getting the c**p outta *SQL and the "thing done", as ugly
    as it may be. We could use Ruby instead for web-stuff, but Ruby
    as such lacks in this regard here and there, i.e. at times
    mod_ruby was just a pain to install, online-docu for ruby is
    still not that good (even though a lot has changed the last 2
    years... Pickaxe was wonderful but things change so quickly...)
    ruby-cgi stinks a bit since it does not report where it
    found an error and is rather slow compared to a .php site,
    and "killer apps" like a phpBB variant for _ruby_ do not
    seem to shape up _without_rails (and even with rails, it
    seems a LOT of work..)

    Does anyone notice .rhtml files at all on the www?
    I see .php pages all the time. (Almost) all the webshops use
    them (yuck). Loads of blogs use php. The basic underlying task of
    what these scripts do is so simple, but ruby doesnt grow in this
    area as php did. Rails alone can not be the solution to compete
    with php on that area (assuming we want that) due to the lesser
    flexibility (I have experienced that MANY people who learn rails
    are just outright confused by ruby...):

    - Simplicity sometimes beats conventions.
    - Ugliness sometimes beats beauty.

    This is NOT an anti-rails post. This is a PRO post to get
    ruby fit for the www. Or at least, fitter/better!

    Back to www.langpop.com for querying top 3 "jobs wanted"
    notes, PHP and SQL is among them (rank 3 / rank 1).
    Yuck yuck yuck. But you see it still seems popular and I dare
    claim they would be better off using what is *needed* to
    complete a job in an elegant fashion - with ruby instead.
    At least that is my firm opinion - well written ruby code
    is shorter and more elegant than well written php code
    of comparable "feature set".

    The del.icio.us site was also "analyzed" on http://www.langpop.com/ -
    ruby and python both seem more popular than in the other grows.
    That must mean, that people search for both quite a lot.
    For example, Ogre3d, Blender project and the small game
    engine FiFE all have usable python bindings.
    No perl, no lua, no ruby on that.
    But ...

    PHP also wins on del.icio.us and in fact is only beaten
    by _JAVASCRIPT_ !
    Does this hint at the importance of the www? :)

    My conclusio, even if people heard that too ofte... and I
    promise to be silent about it for some months to :D

    I think the www should be one of the most important
    aspects for ruby!
    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
     
    Marc Heiler, Nov 6, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Marc Heiler

    bwv549 Guest

    PHP isn't as consistent or beautiful as ruby, but it hardly matters
    when you have online documentation like this:

    http://www.php.net/manual/en/

    We (the ruby community) really should have excellent, up-to-date,
    comprehensive online documentation. Considering its online
    documentation, it is amazing that ruby is as popular as it is.
    Pickaxe I is great but stale now, and I am too cheap to buy the 2nd
    edition (like millions of other college/grad students out there). Are
    there any projects out there attempting to create good, online
    documentation for ruby? Are we waiting for 2.0 before doing this?

    >> I think the www should be one of the most important aspects for ruby!


    Agreed, who wants to write up a library porting or ruby-izing
    everything useful to www in PHP to ruby? Anyone? :)

    --john
     
    bwv549, Nov 6, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Marc Heiler

    Ilan Berci Guest

    Marc Heiler wrote:
    > Hi,
    >


    > Does anyone notice .rhtml files at all on the www?
    >


    mod_rewrite

    Pickaxe 2, dealing with 1.8, is as relevant today as the day it was
    printed.

    Rails has everything it needs and the amount of add-ons through gems,
    plugins, generators, etc... is amazing.. please give specific examples
    of a task you couldn't complete through rails and ask on the rails list
    for a suggestion.

    Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    @bwv549

    The people updating ruby documentation do so on a voluntary basis. The
    amount of work that has already went into it is staggering and I am sure
    they would welcome more volunteers if you are interested.


    ilan


    --
    Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
     
    Ilan Berci, Nov 6, 2007
    #3
  4. Marc Heiler

    Alex Young Guest

    Ilan Berci wrote:
    > Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    mv index.php ~/public_html

    Sorry, but it's true. Deployment of PHP is trivial, deployment of Ruby
    isn't. That's one big reason why it's as popular as it is.

    --
    Alex
     
    Alex Young, Nov 7, 2007
    #4
  5. On Nov 7, 12:19 pm, Alex Young <> wrote:
    > Ilan Berci wrote:
    > > Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    >
    > mv index.php ~/public_html
    >
    > Sorry, but it's true. Deployment of PHP is trivial, deployment of Ruby
    > isn't. That's one big reason why it's as popular as it is.


    Same as mv index.rb ~/public_html

    leaving only the necessity to do some mod_ruby configuration.

    (I'm not talking about Rails, just eruby)
     
    Vasyl Smirnov, Nov 7, 2007
    #5
  6. Hi --

    On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, Vasyl Smirnov wrote:

    > On Nov 7, 12:19 pm, Alex Young <> wrote:
    >> Ilan Berci wrote:
    >>> Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    >>
    >> mv index.php ~/public_html
    >>
    >> Sorry, but it's true. Deployment of PHP is trivial, deployment of Ruby
    >> isn't. That's one big reason why it's as popular as it is.

    >
    > Same as mv index.rb ~/public_html
    >
    > leaving only the necessity to do some mod_ruby configuration.
    >
    > (I'm not talking about Rails, just eruby)


    I'm glad you pointed that out. This thread seems to be slipping into
    Ruby/Rails confusion, or perhaps to have been based on that confusion
    from the beginning.


    David

    --
    Upcoming training by David A. Black/Ruby Power and Light, LLC:
    * Advancing With Rails, Edison, NJ, November 6-9
    * Advancing With Rails, Berlin, Germany, November 19-22
    * Intro to Rails, London, UK, December 3-6 (by Skills Matter)
    See http://www.rubypal.com for details!
     
    David A. Black, Nov 7, 2007
    #6
  7. Marc Heiler

    Alex Young Guest

    Vasyl Smirnov wrote:
    > On Nov 7, 12:19 pm, Alex Young <> wrote:
    >> Ilan Berci wrote:
    >>> Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    >> mv index.php ~/public_html
    >>
    >> Sorry, but it's true. Deployment of PHP is trivial, deployment of Ruby
    >> isn't. That's one big reason why it's as popular as it is.

    >
    > Same as mv index.rb ~/public_html
    >
    > leaving only the necessity to do some mod_ruby configuration.

    Am I wrong in thinking that mod_ruby runs all scripts in the same
    interpreter, so they all share a namespace?

    --
    Alex
     
    Alex Young, Nov 7, 2007
    #7
  8. Marc Heiler

    John Joyce Guest

    On Nov 7, 2007, at 4:19 AM, Alex Young wrote:

    > Ilan Berci wrote:
    >> Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    > mv index.php ~/public_html
    >
    > Sorry, but it's true. Deployment of PHP is trivial, deployment of
    > Ruby isn't. That's one big reason why it's as popular as it is.
    >
    >

    If by deployment of php, you mean using php in web development is
    trivial, yes it's true.
    If by deployment of php, you mean installing and configuring a php
    interpreter is trivial, it is not true at all. It's quite a task.
    All Apache modules can be a pain.
     
    John Joyce, Nov 7, 2007
    #8
  9. On Nov 7, 1:11 pm, Alex Young <> wrote:
    > Am I wrong in thinking that mod_ruby runs all scripts in the same
    > interpreter, so they all share a namespace?


    The following:

    page-a.rb

    #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    <%
    class Foo
    def bar
    puts "Page A: Foo#bar<br>"
    end
    end
    def baz
    puts "Page A: baz<br>"
    end
    Foo.new.bar
    baz
    %>

    page-b.rb:

    #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    <%
    class Foo
    def bar
    puts "Page B: Foo#bar<br>"
    end
    end
    def baz
    puts "Page B: baz<br>"
    end
    Foo.new.bar
    baz
    %>

    works just fine.

    I'm pretty new to both ruby and eruby, and only about to dive deeply
    into the latter.
    And yes, I've heard about some issues concerning the shared
    interpreter, though I've yet to run into them.

    The only problem so far was the need to turn on "RubyRequire auto-
    reload".
     
    Vasyl Smirnov, Nov 7, 2007
    #9
  10. Marc Heiler

    Phrogz Guest

    On Nov 7, 8:14 am, Vasyl Smirnov <> wrote:
    > On Nov 7, 1:11 pm, Alex Young <> wrote:
    >
    > > Am I wrong in thinking that mod_ruby runs all scripts in the same
    > > interpreter, so they all share a namespace?

    >
    > The following:
    >
    > page-a.rb
    >
    > #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    > <%
    > class Foo
    > def bar
    > puts "Page A: Foo#bar<br>"
    > end
    > end
    > def baz
    > puts "Page A: baz<br>"
    > end
    > Foo.new.bar
    > baz
    > %>
    >
    > page-b.rb:
    >
    > #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    > <%
    > class Foo
    > def bar
    > puts "Page B: Foo#bar<br>"
    > end
    > end
    > def baz
    > puts "Page B: baz<br>"
    > end
    > Foo.new.bar
    > baz
    > %>
    >
    > works just fine.


    Yes, it would, but that could be because each file runs over the other
    one.
    For example:

    C:\>type t1.rb
    class Foo
    def bar
    puts "Page A: Foo#bar<br>"
    end
    end
    def baz
    puts "Page A: baz<br>"
    end
    Foo.new.bar
    baz

    C:\>type t2.rb
    class Foo
    def bar
    puts "Page B: Foo#bar<br>"
    end
    end
    def baz
    puts "Page B: baz<br>"
    end
    Foo.new.bar
    baz

    C:\>irb
    irb(main):001:0> load 't1.rb'
    Page A: Foo#bar<br>
    Page A: baz<br>
    => true

    irb(main):002:0> load 't2.rb'
    Page B: Foo#bar<br>
    Page B: baz<br>
    => true

    irb(main):003:0> load 't1.rb'
    Page A: Foo#bar<br>
    Page A: baz<br>
    => true


    Obviously that's all in the same namespace/interpreter, but you don't
    see a problem. Instead, try something like this:

    C:\>type t1.rb
    p @foo ||= 'page 1'

    C:\>type t2.rb
    p @foo ||= 'page 2'

    C:\>irb
    irb(main):001:0> load 't1.rb'
    "page 1"
    => true

    irb(main):002:0> load 't2.rb'
    "page 1"
    => true
     
    Phrogz, Nov 7, 2007
    #10
  11. On Nov 7, 6:10 pm, Phrogz <> wrote:
    > [cut]
    >
    > Obviously that's all in the same namespace/interpreter, but you don't
    > see a problem. Instead, try something like this:
    >
    > [cut]


    OK, here we go:

    t1.rb:

    #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    <%
    p @foo ||= 'page 1'
    %>

    t2.rb:

    #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    <%
    p @foo ||= 'page 2'
    %>

    Result - works like a charm: t1 gives "page 1", t2 gives "page 2"
    (in the browser window, of course).
    No matter how many times and in what sequence I reload the pages.
     
    Vasyl Smirnov, Nov 7, 2007
    #11
  12. Marc Heiler

    tho_mica_l Guest

    > Result - works like a charm: t1 gives "page 1", t2 gives "page 2"
    > (in the browser window, of course).
    > No matter how many times and in what sequence I reload the pages.


    Repeating this test with a global variable $foo might be more
    revealing though, as it is unclear in which context @foo is evaluated.

    or

    p defined?(Foo)
    class Foo
    end
     
    tho_mica_l, Nov 7, 2007
    #12
  13. On Nov 7, 8:35 pm, tho_mica_l <> wrote:
    > Repeating this test with a global variable $foo might be more
    > revealing though, as it is unclear in which context @foo is evaluated.


    Yep, you're right...
     
    Vasyl Smirnov, Nov 7, 2007
    #13
  14. On 07/11/2007, John Joyce <> wrote:
    >
    > On Nov 7, 2007, at 4:19 AM, Alex Young wrote:
    >
    > > Ilan Berci wrote:
    > >> Please site an example where you found PHP easier than rails.

    > > mv index.php ~/public_html
    > >
    > > Sorry, but it's true. Deployment of PHP is trivial, deployment of
    > > Ruby isn't. That's one big reason why it's as popular as it is.
    > >
    > >

    > If by deployment of php, you mean using php in web development is
    > trivial, yes it's true.
    > If by deployment of php, you mean installing and configuring a php
    > interpreter is trivial, it is not true at all. It's quite a task.
    > All Apache modules can be a pain.


    However, PHP is already installed on many web hosting servers, The
    number of admins capable of installing PHP (or having a test install
    somewhere already) you see by just looking around in your IT
    department is usually non-zero, not the same for Ruby.

    There are also technical reasons for this. The mod_php has (after some
    years of development) "sound security" (no more security holes than
    the underlying POSIX). PHP has also a sound interpreter that you can
    reset to the initial state which allows isolation of different
    programs running in the apache workers, especially programs of
    different users.

    I guess once we get something like mod_ruby with similar level of
    functionality as mod_php we could see it installed on some freewebs
    (or cheapwebs at least) and people picking Ruby more often. Currently
    you need dedicated hardware or equivelent to run a Ruby site which is
    quite forbidding. Fixing this should be possible after 1.9.

    Thanks

    Michal
     
    Michal Suchanek, Nov 7, 2007
    #14
  15. On Nov 7, 8:35 pm, tho_mica_l <> wrote:
    > Repeating this test with a global variable $foo might be more
    > revealing though, as it is unclear in which context @foo is evaluated.
    >
    > or
    >
    > p defined?(Foo)
    > class Foo
    > end


    again, the latter form somehow does work :)

    defined.rb:

    #!/usr/local/bin/eruby
    <%
    p defined?(Foo)
    class Foo
    end
    p defined?(Foo)
    %>

    outputs << nil "constant" >> to the browser.

    So maybe just the global vars are shared?
     
    Vasyl Smirnov, Nov 8, 2007
    #15
  16. > ...PHP at the same time however, is a horrible
    > language compared to ruby...PHP basically just cares
    > about getting the c**p outta *SQL and the "thing done", as ugly
    > as it may be...


    The Ruby community really needs to calm down about this language
    superiority thing. I'm new to Ruby, and I've been hanging out on this
    list for the past month or two. I'm not sure if you guys realize how
    many of your emails are anti-some-language or comparing Ruby's
    popularity to the others. It's really a turn-off. It's like an
    insecure woman looking in the mirror asking you if she looks OK. "Of
    course!," you say. "You're beautiful!" And then she asks you again
    and again...

    > I see .php pages all the time. (Almost) all the webshops use
    > them (yuck). Loads of blogs use php...Back to www.langpop.com for
    > querying top 3 "jobs wanted"
    > notes, PHP and SQL is among them (rank 3 / rank 1).
    > Yuck yuck yuck...PHP also wins on del.icio.us and in fact is only
    > beaten
    > by _JAVASCRIPT_ !


    PHP code can also be beautiful if written correctly. Given the
    present circumstances, it sounds to me like you'd better go learn
    PHP. ; )

    Michael
     
    Michael Jackson, Nov 8, 2007
    #16
  17. Marc Heiler

    Peter Szinek Guest

    Hello,

    > The Ruby community really needs to calm down about this language
    > superiority thing. I'm new to Ruby, and I've been hanging out on this
    > list for the past month or two. I'm not sure if you guys realize how
    > many of your emails are anti-some-language or comparing Ruby's
    > popularity to the others. It's really a turn-off. It's like an insecure
    > woman looking in the mirror asking you if she looks OK. "Of course!,"
    > you say. "You're beautiful!" And then she asks you again and again...


    Though I am trying to avoid (language) flame wars or anything related to
    them, I really have to disagree here. The above paragraph holds for the
    right-wing activists of the Rails party, but definitely not for Ruby in
    general. Most of the people here are coming from Java, C#, PHP and other
    languages, not necessarily leaving those behind. I have seen some
    serious Java (as well as other language, or language-agnostic) questions
    answered here without bashing or pointing out how X sucks.

    I tried to ignite a Java vs. Ruby flame war once (in the favor of Ruby
    of course), and I was kicked in the *ss very quickly by quite a few guys
    here (not necessarily Java fanatics, just normal coders pointing out
    that language flame wars are pointless and Ruby doesn't need to prove
    it's superiority over anything), then the thread died off.

    Of course that doesn't mean that emails like the one starting this
    thread do not come up from time to time, or that someone doesn't start
    some spontaneous bashing etc. However, in general, I find the Ruby
    mailing list the friendliest one if it comes to superiority proving (and
    a lot of other things, too). Individuals will always have different
    levels of 'insecure-womanhood' as you put it and a lot of other things
    as well, but in general, the Ruby community as a whole is definitely not
    like that.

    >> I see .php pages all the time. (Almost) all the webshops use
    >> them (yuck). Loads of blogs use php...Back to www.langpop.com for
    >> querying top 3 "jobs wanted"
    >> notes, PHP and SQL is among them (rank 3 / rank 1).
    >> Yuck yuck yuck...PHP also wins on del.icio.us and in fact is only beaten
    >> by _JAVASCRIPT_ !

    >
    > PHP code can also be beautiful if written correctly.


    That's true for assembler code, too (though it definitely requires
    different glasses than those of an average Java/C++/PHP/Ruby programmer)
    and possibly for just any language out there. Proponents of Ruby are
    arguing that PHP is not OOP (a frequent reason for Perl guys to come
    over, too) which makes some advanced techniques quite hard to implement
    (like Ruby's metaprogramming capabilities etc.) and ... well I am
    starting to get into details so I am better switching off. </off>

    Of course as we all know, all these languages we are talking about here
    are Turing complete, which basically means you can accomplish the same
    stuff in any of them. However, I guess you won't argue that it's a
    different feeling to code in asm, C, Perl, PHP, Java or Ruby for that
    matter. Rubyists are the most productive and feel the best when
    programming in Ruby. This is a very subjective thing, therefore it
    doesn't make too much sense to attack each other or argue over it (it's
    like bashing Chivas Regal on the Jack Daniels mailing list). If in your
    case the sweet spot is PHP, all the power to you. After programming in
    ~10 languages, I am staying with Ruby for now, until something better
    comes along.

    > Given the present
    > circumstances, it sounds to me like you'd better go learn PHP. ; )


    Be sure that most of the people here have tried PHP or something similar
    before (or even after) their encounter with Ruby, some are even
    mastering it and maybe even using it further. This is not an either/or
    situation: you can learn, use, heck, even like more languages at once.
    You can stay with PHP forever, and put yet another language in your
    toolbox.


    Peace,
    Peter
    ___
    http://www.rubyrailways.com
    http://scrubyt.org
     
    Peter Szinek, Nov 8, 2007
    #17
  18. Marc Heiler

    James Britt Guest

    Peter Szinek wrote:
    > Hello,
    >
    >> The Ruby community really needs to calm down about this language
    >> superiority thing. I'm new to Ruby, and I've been hanging out on this
    >> list for the past month or two. I'm not sure if you guys realize how
    >> many of your emails are anti-some-language or comparing Ruby's
    >> popularity to the others. It's really a turn-off. It's like an
    >> insecure woman looking in the mirror asking you if she looks OK. "Of
    >> course!," you say. "You're beautiful!" And then she asks you again and
    >> again...

    >
    > Though I am trying to avoid (language) flame wars or anything related to
    > them, I really have to disagree here. The above paragraph holds for the
    > right-wing activists of the Rails party, but definitely not for Ruby in
    > general. Most of the people here are coming from Java, C#, PHP and other
    > languages, not necessarily leaving those behind. I have seen some
    > serious Java (as well as other language, or language-agnostic) questions
    > answered here without bashing or pointing out how X sucks.



    This list has a permathread of "python v. ruby", and for the most part
    people are simply told to try both and see what makes you most happy.

    That's not to say there aren't some people who prefer to attempt nasty
    smack-downs, but they are in the minority.

    You can't just count the number of ranting pro-ruby posts; you also have
    to see if they aren't all coming from the same 2 or 3 people.


    MINASWAN


    --
    James Britt

    http://web2.0validator.com - We're the Dot in Web 2.0
    http://www.rubyaz.org - Hacking in the Desert
    http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
     
    James Britt, Nov 8, 2007
    #18
  19. > Peter Szinek wrote:
    >> Hello,
    >>> The Ruby community really needs to calm down about this language
    >>> superiority thing. I'm new to Ruby, and I've been hanging out on
    >>> this list for the past month or two. I'm not sure if you guys
    >>> realize how many of your emails are anti-some-language or
    >>> comparing Ruby's popularity to the others. It's really a turn-
    >>> off. It's like an insecure woman looking in the mirror asking you
    >>> if she looks OK. "Of course!," you say. "You're beautiful!" And
    >>> then she asks you again and again...

    >> Though I am trying to avoid (language) flame wars or anything
    >> related to them, I really have to disagree here. The above
    >> paragraph holds for the right-wing activists of the Rails party,
    >> but definitely not for Ruby in general. Most of the people here
    >> are coming from Java, C#, PHP and other languages, not necessarily
    >> leaving those behind. I have seen some serious Java (as well as
    >> other language, or language-agnostic) questions answered here
    >> without bashing or pointing out how X sucks.

    >
    >
    > This list has a permathread of "python v. ruby", and for the most
    > part people are simply told to try both and see what makes you
    > most happy.
    >
    > That's not to say there aren't some people who prefer to attempt
    > nasty smack-downs, but they are in the minority.
    >
    > You can't just count the number of ranting pro-ruby posts; you also
    > have to see if they aren't all coming from the same 2 or 3 people.


    You guys are absolutely right. My apologies for grouping everyone on
    the list into one group. That was stupid of me.

    Michael
     
    Michael Jackson, Nov 8, 2007
    #19
  20. Marc Heiler

    tho_mica_l Guest

    > The Ruby community really needs to calm down about this language
    > superiority thing.


    Well, one often cited credo around here is that you should learn a new
    language every x month, and I think that ruby profits a lot from this
    attitude. Innovation often means wandering through unknown (as in
    "where no man has been before" :) or "foreign" territory and coming
    back with new ideas.
     
    tho_mica_l, Nov 8, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Xah Lee
    Replies:
    16
    Views:
    937
    =?UTF-8?B?QXJuZSBWYWpow7hq?=
    Sep 30, 2006
  2. Xah Lee
    Replies:
    29
    Views:
    818
    Scott David Daniels
    Oct 1, 2006
  3. Replies:
    18
    Views:
    450
    Alex Buell
    Sep 30, 2006
  4. Replies:
    20
    Views:
    818
    Alex Buell
    Sep 30, 2006
  5. Rajive Narain
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,991
    Rajive Narain
    Sep 18, 2009
Loading...

Share This Page