Larry W... out of work ?? Impossible... or...

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by stu7, Jul 22, 2003.

  1. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    +
    ...or is it ?

    Lets look at what are likely the top reasons his book
    company would have laid Larry off... well, first things
    first... book sales down... but why ? Isn't PERL the most
    popular thing to come around since email ? Sure... but,
    who is it popular with ?

    I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
    and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
    I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
    Since then, of course, Perl has grown immensely, and to
    anyone willing to look, it is obvious that Perl now offers
    an excellent programming framework, and endless specialized
    support modules - Perl has, in addition, become a world effort...
    but, to a commercial venture - a book publisher, for instance,
    Perl is a gooey spit-out... it's a top grade product, with the
    unfortunate reputation of being an internet no-no... why ?
    Perl is NOT a professional offering... trying to make it
    on a commercial level... there simply are no official
    repesentatives of Perl - to anyone looking for help, we either
    "buy a book", or, more often, [consult an internet Perl user
    group]... this is where the goo gets sticky.
    I would guess there aren't one-in-twenty prospective perl
    users, who, after consulting one of the "internet Perl sources",
    has had the positive response they expected, or even remains
    very interested in using or learning Perl thereafter... goodbye
    Perl reputation... Perl, suddenly, doesn't have any commercial
    viability, when all it means is getting berated by a group of
    self-styled technique experts, "discussion leaders", and, again,
    anything BUT the [support people] any newcomer might expect
    for real computer programming material.

    There are other serious issues with Perl, not the least of
    which was the prosecution of one of it's principals for "hacking"...
    this charge never seemed entirely warranted, but the story doesn't
    make Perl any more attractive, commercially.

    Perl, I feel, remains unappreciated by most people, whether
    or not they have used it extensively... but the real point of
    this message was to bail out Larry W... or at least explain his
    plight, and offer a possible answer. I, for one, find it
    unlikely he would sacrifice economic security for the sake of
    developing a new Perl framework... maybe, part of the new Perl
    was to exclude some of the amateurish, stiflingly ineffacious
    "expert documentation", or developmental directions...
    ...otherwise, it can't really be argued - Perl has real
    usefulness, and there are likely endless business ventures who
    could offer L.W. substantial monetary aid in exchange for his
    expertise... but what is the real issue here ?
    Is it even Perl related ? Is it open-source versus MicroSoft ?
    Is it possible one gigantic freeware package is simply enough to
    expect of one person in their lives ?
    Linus got a job... why shouldn't Larry ? :)
    I don't think either of them would, or should, opt for
    dependency on an uncertain thing like the WWW/Internet... why
    the whole Dot/Com blowout, do we imagine ? Its the same problem...
    no permanence, solidity, or lasting value there... a boom market
    with it's own built-in bust clientele.
    I hope L.W. finds his way out of whatever problem it is,
    sooner than later. Perl is perhaps as valuable as a lesson to
    those who (wrongly) accept the Internet as an opportunity it
    never proved itself to be.
     
    stu7, Jul 22, 2003
    #1
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  2. stu7

    Keith Keller Guest

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    Hash: SHA1

    In article <>, stu7 wrote:
    > +
    > ...or is it ?


    [many many lines snipped]

    You must be out of work, as well, to have wasted all that time
    writing so much tripe. Good luck finding a new job.

    (or perhaps you're upset at your perceived mistreatment by some
    other folks in the newsgroup?...)

    - --keith

    - --
    -francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    alt.os.linux.slackware FAQ: http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom

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    Keith Keller, Jul 22, 2003
    #2
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  3. On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 23:59:33 -0400,
    Bernie Cosell <> wrote:
    > (stu7) wrote:
    >
    > } I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
    > } and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
    > } I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
    >
    > Wait a second -- IRC didn't appear until 1988 and Perl came out in 1987..


    This guy is not only utterly clueless, he's also a troll. Ignore him.

    Martien
    --
    |
    Martien Verbruggen | We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then
    Trading Post Australia | things get worse.
    |
     
    Martien Verbruggen, Jul 22, 2003
    #3
  4. >>>>> "stu7" == stu7 <> writes:

    stu7> I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
    stu7> and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
    stu7> I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.

    This is your first factual mistake, and it only goes downhill from
    here. Perl has been around since long before IP packets were flowing
    near your sorry hiney.

    The rest of the post is just the usual FUD from someone who has been
    burned. Pay no heed.

    Nice try. Move along. Nothing to see here.

    print "Just another Perl hacker,";

    --
    Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
    <> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
    Perl/Unix/security consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
    See PerlTraining.Stonehenge.com for onsite and open-enrollment Perl training!
     
    Randal L. Schwartz, Jul 22, 2003
    #4
  5. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote in message news:<>...
    > This is your first factual mistake, and it only goes downhill from
    > here. Perl has been around since long before IP packets were flowing
    > near your sorry hiney.

    *** ...hiney... this is serious. Randal - if you even are the
    *** real Randal - my post was intended to be both complimentary,
    *** and as accurate as possible... perhaps you were wrongly
    *** offended by my reference to yourself ? I suppose anyone
    *** who read the post would see it was an attempt to defend
    *** Perl... maybe you only read the whiney replies ?

    > The rest of the post is just the usual FUD from someone who has been
    > burned. Pay no heed.

    *** Who got burned ?
    *** Im no more put off by the latest batch of non-replies here
    *** than any other time, and just try to ignore them... that was
    *** in fact a major topic of my post - the destabilizing effect
    *** of the massive amount of irreverent or malicious replies which
    *** fill the Usenet groups... didn't you care to comment on this ?
    *** Is it an embarrassing issue to take sides on ? No problem.
    *** Im sorry.

    > Nice try. Move along. Nothing to see here.

    *** Im pretty sure it was the wrongly offended thing now :)
    *** Im still not sure what a FUD is. Perhaps another time.
    > print "Just another Perl hacker,";
     
    stu7, Jul 23, 2003
    #5
  6. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    *** ah... it's eric again... and same complaint as before.
    *** The problem eric is, for one, I DID NOT ADDRESS MY POST
    *** TO YOU... dont take it so personally ? And... you
    *** evidently had nothing to say... not before... not now...
    *** so far as the topic of my posts... so what is it we are
    *** saying here ? Oh right... you're not going to reply, now
    *** that you know Im a
    ***
    *** At the outside, it is possible I was too eager to jump
    *** on your non-reply in particular, and you may in fact
    *** have intended no more than to point out a problem you
    *** were having reading my post... but Email is more suited
    *** for personalized problems like that, rather than adding
    *** content to the newsgroup.
    *** FYI - there is no problem with my quoting style whatsoever...
    *** it works fine on Google_ it is in fact a style I was taught
    *** to use in an Email/NewsReader class... I do apologize if
    *** it causes problems on your system, but I suspect this is
    *** a laptop you're using... so most web pages wont work for
    *** you... again, it isn't especially relevant to me, as a poster
    *** with a question, to address issues like this, although I am
    *** sympathetic... really.

    *** Or... if you dont like the facts of this matter, try to
    *** follow this example :) Suppose you were on vacation,
    *** and stopped to ask directions... and the person you
    *** asked said something like - "Hey... whats with the
    *** flowers on the shirt ? Definitely bad... and your
    *** wife is kinda fat and dumpy too... we dont like that
    *** around here... and, yea, I know how to get to where you
    *** asked about, but Im not going to tell you !".
    *** Sure, thats a little exaggereated... but really, it is
    *** almost as irrelevant as your style critique of my perl
    *** question.
    *** We dont really have a problem, now do we eric ? No.
    *** Please stop pretending :)
    ***
    *** Did I expect a serious answer from you ? No... I
    *** was hiding in the other room, hoping you didnt see it :)

    "Eric J. Roode" <> wrote in a message...
    > You expect a serious answer, when you flamed the hell out of me for trying
    > to be helpful? Ha.
     
    stu7, Jul 23, 2003
    #6
  7. (stu7) wrote in
    news::

    > *** ah... it's eric again... and same complaint as before.
    > *** The problem eric is, for one, I DID NOT ADDRESS MY POST
    > *** TO YOU... dont take it so personally ?


    You posted on a public forum. Everyone can then reply to what he/she sees
    as relevant.

    > *** And... you
    > *** evidently had nothing to say... not before... not now...
    > *** so far as the topic of my posts... so what is it we are
    > *** saying here ?


    There is no topic to your post. You have a chip on your shoulder, and
    your claim that you were around when Perl 1.0 was announced (in 1987)
    seems dubious.

    > *** At the outside, it is possible I was too eager to jump
    > *** on your non-reply in particular, and you may in fact
    > *** have intended no more than to point out a problem you
    > *** were having reading my post... but Email is more suited
    > *** for personalized problems like that, rather than adding
    > *** content to the newsgroup.


    It is not personal problem of Eric. He was kind enough to point out to
    you that your use of sequences of characters commonly used when quoting
    someone else makes it hard for readers to figure out difference between
    original content and quotations in your post. Put simply, your posting
    style is misleading in that regard.

    > *** FYI - there is no problem with my quoting style whatsoever...
    > *** it works fine on Google_ it is in fact a style I was taught
    > *** to use in an Email/NewsReader class...


    Please mention where this class is given so people know to avoid it.

    > I do apologize if
    > *** it causes problems on your system, but I suspect this is
    > *** a laptop you're using... so most web pages wont work for
    > *** you... again, it isn't especially relevant to me, as a poster
    > *** with a question, to address issues like this, although I am
    > *** sympathetic... really.


    What is this supposed to mean? I have been using portables and laptops
    almost exclusively since 1993, and I have no idea what you mean by "most
    pages won't work" for laptop users (putting aside the fact that this
    discussion is taking place in a UseNet group).

    In any case, as a poster with a question, it is your responsibility to
    adhere to the conventions of the forum you are posting to if you want
    people to take the time and effort to respond to your questions.

    > *** around here... and, yea, I know how to get to where you
    > *** asked about, but Im not going to tell you !".


    Rude people deserve that.

    Sinan.

    --
    A. Sinan Unur

    Remove dashes for address
    Spam bait: mailto:
     
    A. Sinan Unur, Jul 23, 2003
    #7
  8. "stu7" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > *** ...hiney... this is serious. Randal - if you even are the
    > *** real Randal


    Randal Schwartz is a regular in this group, and you seem to have made a
    spectacular debut putting your foot in your mouth.

    See http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

    gtoomey
     
    Gregory Toomey, Jul 23, 2003
    #8
  9. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    *** I can accept that. Likely, it was the newest release
    *** being announced_ maybe even the actual version 1.0 .
    *** I only recalled first hearing about Perl on that
    *** occassion, and trying it then.

    Bernie Cosell <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > (stu7) wrote:
    >
    > } I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
    > } and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
    > } I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
    >
    > Wait a second -- IRC didn't appear until 1988 and Perl came out in 1987..
    >
    > /Bernie\
     
    stu7, Jul 23, 2003
    #9
  10. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    *** I can accept that. Likely, it was the newest release
    *** being announced_ maybe even the actual version 1.0 .
    *** I only recalled first hearing about Perl on that
    *** occassion, and trying it then.

    Bernie Cosell <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > (stu7) wrote:
    >
    > } I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
    > } and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
    > } I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
    >
    > Wait a second -- IRC didn't appear until 1988 and Perl came out in 1987..
    >
    > /Bernie\
     
    stu7, Jul 23, 2003
    #10
  11. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    > Keith Keller wrote:
    > > You must be out of work, as well, to have wasted all that time
    > > writing so much tripe. Good luck finding a new job.

    *** it wasnt wasted time... I made my point... what was yours ?

    > > (or perhaps you're upset at your perceived mistreatment by some
    > > other folks in the newsgroup?...)

    *** No Keith, Im not upset - rather, I tried to point out that
    *** the preponderance of insult replies (such as your own), and
    *** other "replies" on these groups, which likewise address
    *** neither the questions nor issues addressed in the poster's
    *** inquiries, have been responsible for Usenet's declining
    *** reputation as a useable resource for serious programmers.
    *** In particular, I was using this example to show how PERL -
    *** which has largely been known and distributed via the same
    *** Internet medium - has suffered enormously from it's
    *** association with these "newgroups" and other services.

    > > - --keith

    >
    > yikes boy, his post meandered a bit, but he made some sense. i think
    > you're the type of poster he was referring to :)


    *** Haha... meandered... I like that ! Well, no, it wasn't
    *** critically edited... it was admittedly my emotional response
    *** to this recent (to me) news of Larry W's job plight.
     
    stu7, Jul 23, 2003
    #11
  12. stu7 wrote:

    > *** FYI - there is no problem with my quoting style whatsoever...
    > *** it works fine on Google_


    Google is not usenet, usenet is not the web, it has nothing to do
    with the web except that it uses the same wires and there are some
    web interfaces into usent (and some usenet interfaces into the
    web for some odd and screwball values of "interfaces").

    > *** it is in fact a style I was taught to use in an Email/NewsReader
    > *** class...


    If you took a class in how to use email and usenet, may I respectfully
    suggest you haven't been around the net long enough to hold an opinion
    on what constitutes good style?

    Stylistically usenet settled down sometime in the early 80's, well before
    the great renaming in '86. There weren't any classes on how to use net
    related things back then, we all just had to pick it up as we went along,
    in alot of cases, we has to write the tools to do the stuff as went along.

    Your quoting convention is wierd, trust me. No don't bother, see
    http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html and take their word
    for it... specifically section 3.1

    3.1 Which character should I use to mark the quoted text?

    Use the "Greater-Than" character (">"). This character is recognized as
    a quotationmark by almost every newsreader and is mentioned in the
    netiquette as such for technical reasons (Son-Of-RFC 1036 and
    successors).

    > *** I do apologize if it causes problems on your system, but I suspect
    > *** this is a laptop you're using... so most web pages wont work for
    > *** you... again, it isn't especially relevant to me, as a poster
    > *** with a question, to address issues like this, although I am
    > *** sympathetic... really.


    The sheer lack of knowledge that this paragraph hints at is mind
    boggling... totally disregarding that this is usenet, not the web,
    why on Earth shouldn't web pages work on a laptop? What does the
    harware have to do with anything?

    Al.
     
    Alasdair Allan, Jul 23, 2003
    #12
  13. stu7

    Tintin Guest

    "stu7" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > +
    > ...or is it ?


    [snipped rambling rant]

    Son of Moronzilla?
     
    Tintin, Jul 23, 2003
    #13
  14. stu7

    Steve Allan Guest

    "Eric J. Roode" <> writes:

    <snip appropriate edification>

    >Let me suggest a counter-analogy. Suppose you're walking down a sidewalk
    >in a neighborhood you're familiar with. A car pulls up with the radio
    >blaring and honks repeatedly at you. When you go over to see what his
    >problem is, he says, "Hey, I need to get to 4th and Broad. Tell me how
    >to get there. Now come on, make it snappy!" And then he tosses a
    >cigarette butt out of his car at your feet.
    >
    >Maybe you'll help him, maybe you won't. Nobody would blame you for not
    >helping him and just walking away. But then suppose you said to him, "You
    >know, people would be more likely to help you get places if you would
    >turn down your radio and not honk at them, and to say words like
    >'please' and 'thank you'". And then this driver went ballistic, ripping
    >into you, calling you childish and saying "You don't own this street!
    >Who do you think you are? I'll honk my horn any time I want -- at 3am if
    >I feel like it!"
    >
    >Well, how would you feel about a driver who so thoroughly ignored social
    >conventions like that?


    Now *that* is what I call a great analogy! I hope this finds its way
    into the posting guidelines.

    --
    -- Steve
     
    Steve Allan, Jul 23, 2003
    #14
  15. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    *** My original post, included below, was both
    *** sincere and accurate... in my estimation, the
    *** problem addressed will not change without serious
    *** improvements in the way Perl is either presented
    *** or supported.
    ***
    *** The fact that "Sinan Unar","Keith Keller",
    *** "Martien Verbruggen", "Eric Roode", or "Gregory
    *** Toomey", all got together to harass me, and belittle
    *** my well meant post, should be taken as a positive
    *** affirmation of what I was saying... this is how
    *** these people spend their time - trying to uphold
    *** their private fantasy of importance as "newsgroup
    *** workers", and aimlessly criticizing those who come
    *** to the groups looking for help, or otherwise fail
    *** to offer proper adoration of their sick little
    *** cabal of deadbeat style whines. Nothing useful
    *** or factual was offered by any of these problem posters_
    *** but then, thats an assumption.
    *** I was a little surprised to see anyone named
    *** randal schwartz jump on this teetering bandwagon
    *** of jeering spammers... isnt he supposed to be one of
    *** the good guys ?

    (stu7) wrote in message news:<>...
    > +
    > Larry W... out of work ?? Impossible... or...
    > ...or is it ?
    >
    > Lets look at what are likely the top reasons his book
    > company would have laid Larry off... well, first things
    > first... book sales down... but why ? Isn't PERL the most
    > popular thing to come around since email ? Sure... but,
    > who is it popular with ?
    >
    > I first saw Perl the day it was released... I was IRCing
    > and somebody came around announcing this new thing, Perl, so
    > I checked it out... I forget what it offered at that time.
    > Since then, of course, Perl has grown immensely, and to
    > anyone willing to look, it is obvious that Perl now offers
    > an excellent programming framework, and endless specialized
    > support modules - Perl has, in addition, become a world effort...
    > but, to a commercial venture - a book publisher, for instance,
    > Perl is a gooey spit-out... it's a top grade product, with the
    > unfortunate reputation of being an internet no-no... why ?
    > Perl is NOT a professional offering... trying to make it
    > on a commercial level... there simply are no official
    > repesentatives of Perl - to anyone looking for help, we either
    > "buy a book", or, more often, [consult an internet Perl user
    > group]... this is where the goo gets sticky.
    > I would guess there aren't one-in-twenty prospective perl
    > users, who, after consulting one of the "internet Perl sources",
    > has had the positive response they expected, or even remains
    > very interested in using or learning Perl thereafter... goodbye
    > Perl reputation... Perl, suddenly, doesn't have any commercial
    > viability, when all it means is getting berated by a group of
    > self-styled technique experts, "discussion leaders", and, again,
    > anything BUT the [support people] any newcomer might expect
    > for real computer programming material.
    >
    > There are other serious issues with Perl, not the least of
    > which was the prosecution of one of it's principals for "hacking"...
    > this charge never seemed entirely warranted, but the story doesn't
    > make Perl any more attractive, commercially.
    >
    > Perl, I feel, remains unappreciated by most people, whether
    > or not they have used it extensively... but the real point of
    > this message was to bail out Larry W... or at least explain his
    > plight, and offer a possible answer. I, for one, find it
    > unlikely he would sacrifice economic security for the sake of
    > developing a new Perl framework... maybe, part of the new Perl
    > was to exclude some of the amateurish, stiflingly ineffacious
    > "expert documentation", or developmental directions...
    > ...otherwise, it can't really be argued - Perl has real
    > usefulness, and there are likely endless business ventures who
    > could offer L.W. substantial monetary aid in exchange for his
    > expertise... but what is the real issue here ?
    > Is it even Perl related ? Is it open-source versus MicroSoft ?
    > Is it possible one gigantic freeware package is simply enough to
    > expect of one person in their lives ?
    > Linus got a job... why shouldn't Larry ? :)
    > I don't think either of them would, or should, opt for
    > dependency on an uncertain thing like the WWW/Internet... why
    > the whole Dot/Com blowout, do we imagine ? Its the same problem...
    > no permanence, solidity, or lasting value there... a boom market
    > with it's own built-in bust clientele.
    > I hope L.W. finds his way out of whatever problem it is,
    > sooner than later. Perl is perhaps as valuable as a lesson to
    > those who (wrongly) accept the Internet as an opportunity it
    > never proved itself to be.
     
    stu7, Jul 24, 2003
    #15
  16. (stu7) wrote in
    news::

    > *** The fact that "Sinan Unar","Keith Keller",


    Hmmmmm ... That is 'Unur'.

    > *** "Martien Verbruggen", "Eric Roode", or "Gregory
    > *** Toomey", all got together to harass me, and belittle
    > *** my well meant post


    Maybe you don't like being called on your misrepresentations. Nothing I
    can do about that.

    ....

    > *** I was a little surprised to see anyone named
    > *** randal schwartz jump on this teetering bandwagon
    > *** of jeering spammers... isnt he supposed to be one of
    > *** the good guys ?


    The fact that everyone but you is using his real name indicates
    something.


    --
    A. Sinan Unur

    Remove dashes for address
    Spam bait: mailto:
     
    A. Sinan Unur, Jul 24, 2003
    #16
  17. stu7

    stu7 Guest

    > (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote in message news:<>...
    > > This is your first factual mistake, and it only goes downhill from
    > > here. Perl has been around since long before IP packets were flowing
    > > near your sorry hiney.


    *** I took a second look at this remark, and noticed - it isnt
    *** just cutesy and spammie, but almost hostile. I guess really
    *** it's in the playground level profanity category, so OK :)
    ***
    *** A slogan... thats what Perl needs... something like,
    *** "Real men, using real playground level profanities, as they
    *** build an exciting new language_ working against all odds,
    *** in a world that just didnt seem to care".
    *** I dunno how this is going to go over with hollywood, but
    *** dont say I didnt try. :)
    ***
    *** No_ Im just kidding... I guess its the other people who
    *** were serious. OK, Im done.
     
    stu7, Jul 24, 2003
    #17
  18. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    (stu7) wrote in
    news::

    > *** There simply were no style issues addressed in my original
    > *** post. Answering with a non-answer... although it is
    > *** a popular recreation here... isnt any more useful or
    > *** appreciated.


    That's fine. Do what you want. If you refuse to learn couth, there's
    nothing that I can do about it, and I won't waste any more of my time
    trying. If you need help with a Perl issue, don't expect an answer from
    me. And I expect that I won't be the only one.

    You may not care. That's fine -- I won't care either.

    - --
    Eric
    $_ = reverse sort qw p ekca lre Js reh ts
    p, $/.r, map $_.$", qw e p h tona e; print

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: PGPfreeware 7.0.3 for non-commercial use <http://www.pgp.com>

    iQA/AwUBPx9Iv2PeouIeTNHoEQJEwwCdGXplF443UHAR4XxTu7g/x8PmlE4An3w9
    5J9ItrA+cPtfCu6ZkPK8zA77
    =qjny
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
     
    Eric J. Roode, Jul 24, 2003
    #18
  19. stu7 wrote:
    > *** I didnt post here to be style-critiqued...


    Then you should have used a standard style so that your wierd and off the
    wall style didn't distract so much from you original point, which I now
    forget.

    Al.
     
    Alasdair Allan, Jul 24, 2003
    #19
  20. stu7 wrote:
    > *** OK, Im done.


    I take your word on that. I just hope you will keep your promise!

    jue
     
    Jürgen Exner, Jul 24, 2003
    #20
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