latest best practice

Discussion in 'Java' started by stixwix, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. stixwix

    stixwix Guest

    Hi,

    I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely.
    So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).
    Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate
    or similar?
    Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?

    Thanks,
    Andy
     
    stixwix, Mar 30, 2007
    #1
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  2. On 30.03.2007 14:51, stixwix wrote:
    > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    > know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    > app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely.
    > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).
    > Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate
    > or similar?
    > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?


    I can comment only partially: EJB 3.0 has made a big step forward by
    allowing to include meta data via Java 5 annotations directly into the
    code. Also, I believe, there is a Hibernate add on that will actually
    be able to read this meta data. Generally there seems to be some
    convergence going on between hibernate and EJB persistence.

    HTH

    robert
     
    Robert Klemme, Mar 30, 2007
    #2
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  3. stixwix

    visionset Guest

    "stixwix" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    > know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    > app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely.
    > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).
    > Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate
    > or similar?
    > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?
    >


    Struts2, which is an amalgamation mainly of WebWorks though also previous
    Struts practices, is worth a look at, not sure it's got a final release yet,
    but it can't be long.
    Spring is well worth using for its own sake in your webapps, especially if
    the framework already uses it.
    Acegi is a great security tool and has strong community support.
    Hibernate is going from strength to strength, even the .Net community use a
    version of it!
    Eclipse has a host of plugins that aid webdev greatly espcially
    hibernate/tomcat support.
    You can use Hibernate and restrict yourself to the JEE persistence API which
    is a subset, to ease future EJB container migration.
    HTH
    --
    Mike W
     
    visionset, Mar 30, 2007
    #3
  4. stixwix

    Lew Guest

    "stixwix" <> wrote ...
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    >> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    >> app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely.
    >> So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).
    >> Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate
    >> or similar?
    >> Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?


    For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write my own
    controller servlet.

    It's a little bit of work, but once you've done it once it only takes a couple
    of hours to put together a complete web app ever onward.

    The rest of the work, writing logic or "Action" classes and the DAO layer,
    etc., is the same.

    For larger apps, or ones that tend to evolve feature sets or maintenance
    crews, frameworks are a better choice.

    In that world I would prefer JSF because it's from Sun and because the rampant
    abuse of Struts 1.1 soured me on that project. I am given to understand that
    JSF and Struts could actually be used together, but I know not much of it.

    I am just buckling down to learn JSF.

    -- Lew
     
    Lew, Mar 30, 2007
    #4
  5. stixwix

    visionset Guest

    "Lew" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    >>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    >>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    >>> app


    > For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write my
    > own controller servlet.


    For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews.

    --
    Mike W
     
    visionset, Mar 30, 2007
    #5
  6. stixwix

    Lew Guest

    visionset wrote:
    > "Lew" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    >>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    >>>> app

    >
    >> For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write my
    >> own controller servlet.

    >
    > For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews.


    Which is a shame, because so many people get through the interview because
    they can correctly explain how to set up a struts-config.xml, but then when
    they get on the job they totally don't understand how Struts works, the basis
    of the MVC architecture, or when to use or not use certain taglibs, and they
    completely hose the project.

    If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how to
    build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one.

    -- Lew
     
    Lew, Mar 31, 2007
    #6
  7. Lew wrote:
    > visionset wrote:
    >> "Lew" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    >>>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    >>>>> app

    >>
    >>> For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write
    >>> my own controller servlet.

    >>
    >> For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews.

    >
    > Which is a shame, because so many people get through the interview
    > because they can correctly explain how to set up a struts-config.xml,
    > but then when they get on the job they totally don't understand how
    > Struts works, the basis of the MVC architecture, or when to use or not
    > use certain taglibs, and they completely hose the project.
    >
    > If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how
    > to build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one.


    I'm beginning to doubt whether anyone is going to hire me after I finish
    my current studies. I have a highly developed general "learn computer
    concepts and apply them" skill. I can see myself having to study the
    currently fashionable acronyms just to get to an interview.

    Patricia
     
    Patricia Shanahan, Mar 31, 2007
    #7
  8. stixwix wrote:
    > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    > know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    > app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely.
    > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).


    I would go for JSF. Preferrable a JSF implementation with AJAX
    support.

    > Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate
    > or similar?


    Is it best to use hammer or paint ? It depends a lot on what you
    want to do. Hibernate is not a replacement for EJB's. Hibernate
    is a replacement for entity beans. You may still need session beans
    and message driven beans if you need that functionality. With EJB 3.0
    (but note that the EJB 3 standard is not that widely used yet) the
    difference between entity bean and Hibernate is much smaller
    than it was.

    The Spring framework is also rather hot. It is often combined
    with Hibernate. But can also be combined with EJB's.

    > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?


    I do not know. I though GWT was Java code being compiled
    to JavaScript to be executed client side.

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Mar 31, 2007
    #8
  9. Robert Klemme wrote:
    > I can comment only partially: EJB 3.0 has made a big step forward by
    > allowing to include meta data via Java 5 annotations directly into the
    > code.


    A minority (including me) does not see that as a step forward ...

    Arne
     
    =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=, Mar 31, 2007
    #9
  10. stixwix

    Guest

    On Mar 30, 2:51 pm, "stixwix" <> wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    > know what has happened in the interim.


    Depends on what you're looking at but Spring took a part of
    the Java world by storm and has lots of momentum.

    Not everybody uses it, but it may interest you:

    http://www.springfamework.org (it's entirely Open Source Software)

    Spring now has some very interesting real-world
    success stories.


    > At that time, a typical web app would probably use struts and
    > personally i avoided EJB completely.
    > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).


    I'd use Spring. Spring projects continues to avoid EJB.

    You can use struts + Spring (Spring is much more than struts) but
    Spring's design is so much cleaner that, for a new project,
    I wouldn't bother with struts at all.


    > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?


    This is another topic: it is gaining some traction but
    apparently not *that* much of an impact yet.

    If you're writing a Java Webapp and need some JavaScript
    on the client's browser, then GWT can be really useful: you
    write in Java and you've got JavaScript automagically generated.
    GWT fixes many JavaScript-related caching *bugs* (not just nasty
    caching issues, but also browser bugs etc.) and offers you
    safer type checking than plain JavaScript, a nice API, etc.
     
    , Apr 2, 2007
    #10
  11. stixwix

    Oliver Wong Guest

    "Lew" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > visionset wrote:
    >> "Lew" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>
    >>>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    >>>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    >>>>> app

    >>
    >>> For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write
    >>> my own controller servlet.

    >>
    >> For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews.

    >
    > Which is a shame, because so many people get through the interview
    > because they can correctly explain how to set up a struts-config.xml,
    > but then when they get on the job they totally don't understand how
    > Struts works, the basis of the MVC architecture, or when to use or not
    > use certain taglibs, and they completely hose the project.
    >
    > If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how
    > to build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one.


    On the other hand, there are strategic hires (e.g. "Is this person a
    generally good programmer? It doesn't matter what specific technologies
    they are familiar with, as a good programmer will be able to pick up new
    technologies relatively quickly.") and there are tactical hires (e.g.
    "We're 6 months behind schedule. We need someone who knows how to work
    with FooBar right now. We need them to use FooBar the same way our 20
    other developers use FooBar, which is the same way everyone else uses
    FooBar. We do NOT need a different (or custom) framework to replace
    FooBar, even if it this different framework is faster, better, stronger.
    We don't need someone smart, we just need someone who will do what they're
    told, with little to no supervision/overhead. So do you know how to edit a
    FooBar-conf.xml file?")

    - Oliver
     
    Oliver Wong, Apr 3, 2007
    #11
  12. stixwix

    Guest

    In article <euk9nl$2std$>,
    Patricia Shanahan <> wrote:
    > Lew wrote:
    > > visionset wrote:
    > >> "Lew" <> wrote in message
    > >> news:...
    > >>
    > >>>>> I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    > >>>>> know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    > >>>>> app
    > >>
    > >>> For smaller applications I use neither Struts nor JSF, but just write
    > >>> my own controller servlet.
    > >>
    > >> For sure, it just doesn't cut it at interviews.

    > >
    > > Which is a shame, because so many people get through the interview
    > > because they can correctly explain how to set up a struts-config.xml,
    > > but then when they get on the job they totally don't understand how
    > > Struts works, the basis of the MVC architecture, or when to use or not
    > > use certain taglibs, and they completely hose the project.
    > >
    > > If I were interviewing you, I'd be much more impressed that you know how
    > > to build a framework than that you know how to (mis)use one.

    >
    > I'm beginning to doubt whether anyone is going to hire me after I finish
    > my current studies. I have a highly developed general "learn computer
    > concepts and apply them" skill. I can see myself having to study the
    > currently fashionable acronyms just to get to an interview.
    >


    Well .... Take my comments with a huge grain of salt, because most
    of what I know about getting industry jobs with an advanced degree
    is second-hand at best. (I'm in academia.) With that disclaimer:

    What degree are you pursuing, and what kind of job are you thinking
    of applying for? If it's a master's, and you're thinking of
    a job focusing more on development, then your concerns might be
    well founded. But if it's a PhD, and you're thinking of something
    more research-oriented, I'm not sure familiarity with the current
    crop of buzzwords will matter so much.

    (And -- have you thought at all about an academic job? Based on
    your track record in this group, you seem pretty good at explaining
    things, and patient with newbie questions, which would be huge
    assets in a job that emphasizes teaching.)

    --
    B. L. Massingill
    ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
     
    , Apr 3, 2007
    #12
  13. stixwix

    Lew Guest

    Oliver Wong wrote:
    > On the other hand, there are strategic hires (e.g. "Is this person a
    > generally good programmer? It doesn't matter what specific technologies
    > they are familiar with, as a good programmer will be able to pick up new
    > technologies relatively quickly.") and there are tactical hires (e.g.
    > "We're 6 months behind schedule. We need someone who knows how to work
    > with FooBar right now. We need them to use FooBar the same way our 20
    > other developers use FooBar, which is the same way everyone else uses
    > FooBar. We do NOT need a different (or custom) framework to replace
    > FooBar, even if it this different framework is faster, better, stronger.
    > We don't need someone smart, we just need someone who will do what they're
    > told, with little to no supervision/overhead. So do you know how to edit a
    > FooBar-conf.xml file?")


    Such "tactical" hiring can be very shortsighted. For example, in my own
    experience I have seen that people who understand the Front Controller pattern
    can use Struts quite well, but those who don't make a complete hash of things.
    A hiring manager would be well advised to make sure that the programmers they
    hire * actually know how to program * .

    Too many collecting paychecks for as programmers have too little talent or
    knowledge for the activity and too much ego or laziness to admit it.

    --
    Lew
     
    Lew, Apr 4, 2007
    #13
  14. stixwix

    Guest

    On Mar 30, 10:51 pm, "stixwix" <> wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I've been away from java dev for a couple of years and don't really
    > know what has happened in the interim. At that time, a typical web
    > app would probably use struts and personally i avoided EJB completely.
    > So, is JSF better than struts (or would you use both?).
    > Has EJB become easier to understand or is it better to use Hibernate
    > or similar?
    > Has Google Web tool kit had an impact?
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Andy



    In summary there is now more choice, but at the same time less
    agreement over the best frameworks to use:)

    There has also been some level of recognition (by some but not all)
    that there are alternatives to EJBs for enterprise development.
     
    , Apr 4, 2007
    #14
  15. stixwix

    Wojtek Guest

    Oliver Wong wrote :
    > On the other hand, there are strategic hires (e.g. "Is this person a
    > generally good programmer? It doesn't matter what specific technologies they
    > are familiar with, as a good programmer will be able to pick up new
    > technologies relatively quickly.")


    Yes, except that this person will NEVER make it through the inital HR
    sweep.

    "Ok, you do not know Java 1.2.3.4? We ONLY use THAT verison here...."

    Typically the HR droid has gone thought the development managers and
    asked them what specific technologiess they are using or have ever
    used. That becomes the basis for the job ad and the initial filter
    criteria for all the responses

    --
    Wojtek :)
     
    Wojtek, Apr 10, 2007
    #15
  16. stixwix

    Chris Uppal Guest

    Wojtek wrote:

    > Yes, except that this person will NEVER make it through the inital HR
    > sweep.
    >
    > "Ok, you do not know Java 1.2.3.4? We ONLY use THAT verison here...."
    >
    > Typically the HR droid has gone thought the development managers and
    > asked them what specific technologiess they are using or have ever
    > used. That becomes the basis for the job ad and the initial filter
    > criteria for all the responses


    I agree that this happens, but I wonder how much of the blame for this lies in
    ourselves. We -- obviously -- cannot expect HR folk to make sensible decisions
    on real technical matters, so the only filters they can apply are the ones we
    ourselves suggest. And if we don't tell them things like (for instance):

    Java is the underlying stuff -- they have to know that well, but it doesn't
    matter much how/where/when they learned it.

    Web servers are an application of Java, and not everyone who knows Java
    well will have done anything with web servers. We'd prefer someone who
    has at least /some/ experience of web servers, but it doesn't matter much
    whether they gained it with any of the following:
    XXX, YYY, ZZZ...
    or even if they worked with a non-Java webserver such as:
    AAA, BBB, CCC.

    Experience of web-page design, DreamWeaver, PHP, or Flash, is not
    relevant.

    Ideally, we want the person to have experience of the specific web-server
    called JBoss, but that isn't as important as the other two.

    then how can they be expected to help ? FWIW, the small experience I have
    suggests that HR people prefer to be given more sensible information about what
    we are looking for.

    -- chris
     
    Chris Uppal, Apr 10, 2007
    #16
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