Learn HTML and CSS

Discussion in 'HTML' started by andreas.usenet@html.dk, Sep 4, 2006.

  1. Guest

    , Sep 4, 2006
    #1
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  2. Andy Dingley Guest

    wrote:

    > We launced HTML.net earlier this year.


    You should have a warning before that picture of The Hoff !


    > HTML tutorial: http://www.html.net/tutorials/html/introduction.asp


    I'd recommend this to raw beginners - and I'm _fussy_!

    There are a couple of things I'm not too sure about.
    - Like CIW, it teaches XHTML as if it's the only version of HTML to
    consider. This is wrong (as a statement) and so it's a risky thing to
    teach. One risk is that coders start using <br /> in HTML 4.01 pages.
    I'd like to see a clarification of this, maybe on that last page.

    - Lots of HTML fragments and it's not very clear that HTML always uses
    pages, with a proper heading. #5 is good, but it's not obvious that it
    always applies. Similarly for the use of inlined CSS - you ought to
    teach in this way, as it allows some styled HTML to be taught first
    without needing to go into stylesheets, but it ought to be clearer that
    this is just a teaching step, not a good practice. Students pick up
    their first habits as their stickiest habits!

    - The CSS tutorial mentions verdana. OTOH, I did like the emphasis and
    clear explanation of font sizing units.

    - Could have had more linked references as pointers for further study.

    - It's too short. I'd like to see this style used for a longer and
    more detailed tutorial. Maybe call it "more HTML" and have another 10
    lessons. There's certainly scope for it.

    I like this tutorial so much that I'm going to point my gf (total HTML
    beginner) at it.
     
    Andy Dingley, Sep 4, 2006
    #2
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  3. rf Guest

    wrote:

    > HTML tutorial: http://www.html.net/tutorials/html/introduction.asp


    " In this tutorial you will learn so-called XHTML (Extensible HyperText
    Mark-up Language) which, in short, is a new and more well-structured way of
    writing HTML. "

    Hmmm. Not quite. Read the archives for more info.

    "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    different tags."

    Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.

    HTML is *not* about tags, it is about *elements*. An element consists of a
    start tag, some [optional] content and usually (HTML) an end tag.

    Describing HTML from the "tag" point of view leads invariabley to the
    invalid:
    <b>bold<i>bold italic</b>italic</i>normal

    Think *elements* and the above construct cannot be expressed.

    This is where I gave up on your tutorial.

    --
    Richard.
     
    rf, Sep 4, 2006
    #3
  4. Guest

    > I'd recommend this to raw beginners - and I'm _fussy_!

    Thanks. And thanks for some very useful comments.


    > There are a couple of things I'm not too sure about.
    > - Like CIW, it teaches XHTML as if it's the only version of HTML to
    > consider. This is wrong (as a statement) and so it's a risky thing to
    > teach. One risk is that coders start using <br /> in HTML 4.01 pages.
    > I'd like to see a clarification of this, maybe on that last page.


    I hoped we made that clear in lesson 2 and 14:

    "In this tutorial you will learn so-called XHTML (Extensible HyperText
    Mark-up Language) which, in short, is a new and more well-structured
    way of writing HTML."

    "what you have learned in this tutorial is a new and stricter and
    cleaner version of HTML called XHTML."

    But we might need to go into more details. I just don't want to make it
    all too complicated to start with. It should be fun and easy. Maybe we
    could go into details in an advanced HTML tutorial (as you suggest)

    > - Lots of HTML fragments and it's not very clear that HTML always uses
    > pages, with a proper heading. #5 is good, but it's not obvious that it
    > always applies. Similarly for the use of inlined CSS - you ought to
    > teach in this way, as it allows some styled HTML to be taught first
    > without needing to go into stylesheets, but it ought to be clearer that
    > this is just a teaching step, not a good practice. Students pick up
    > their first habits as their stickiest habits!


    I see you point. I'll try to work on that.

    > - It's too short. I'd like to see this style used for a longer and
    > more detailed tutorial. Maybe call it "more HTML" and have another 10
    > lessons. There's certainly scope for it.


    Great idea. If the site becomes an succes we will definitely consider
    an advanced HTML tutorial.

    > I like this tutorial so much that I'm going to point my gf (total HTML
    > beginner) at it.


    We are looking forward to see her at HTML.net. Thanks :)
     
    , Sep 4, 2006
    #4
  5. Guest

    > " In this tutorial you will learn so-called XHTML (Extensible HyperText
    > Mark-up Language) which, in short, is a new and more well-structured way of
    > writing HTML. "
    >
    > Hmmm. Not quite. Read the archives for more info.


    As a short description I don't see any problems in this formulation.
    Please let me know where you see the problem. Maybe "way of writing
    HTML" could be changed to "reformulation of HTML"?

    > "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    > different tags."
    >
    > Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    > This is where I gave up on your tutorial.



    I am sorry to hear that. Again, I don't want to make it too complicated
    to start with. And I don't think there is anything wrong in that
    formulation. The element is part of the tag, which is explained later
    in the tutorial:

    "The basic part of a tag is called an element (for example the p in
    <p>). Thus, a tag consists of either just an element (for example <p>),
    or an element plus one or more attributes (for example <p
    style="background-color:#ff0000;">). Simple as that."

    Thanks for your comments.
     
    , Sep 4, 2006
    #5
  6. Guest


    > > "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    > > different tags."
    > >
    > > Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    > > This is where I gave up on your tutorial.

    >
    >
    > I am sorry to hear that. Again, I don't want to make it too complicated
    > to start with. And I don't think there is anything wrong in that
    > formulation. The element is part of the tag, which is explained later
    > in the tutorial:
    >
    > "The basic part of a tag is called an element (for example the p in
    > <p>). Thus, a tag consists of either just an element (for example <p>),
    > or an element plus one or more attributes (for example <p
    > style="background-color:#ff0000;">). Simple as that."
    >


    You might actually be right on this one. I am sorry to admit :)

    Any suggestions for a more correct formulation?
     
    , Sep 4, 2006
    #6
  7. rf Guest

    wrote:
    >without attribution rf wrote:


    >> " In this tutorial you will learn so-called XHTML (Extensible HyperText
    >> Mark-up Language) which, in short, is a new and more well-structured way
    >> of
    >> writing HTML. "
    >>
    >> Hmmm. Not quite. Read the archives for more info.

    >
    > As a short description I don't see any problems in this formulation.
    > Please let me know where you see the problem. Maybe "way of writing
    > HTML" could be changed to "reformulation of HTML"?


    XHTML is not a reformulation of HTML. It is merely HTML expressed in XML
    rather than SGML.

    You fail to mention that the major browser out there (IE) simply does not
    understand XHTML and will error correct it to HTML. Provide a properly
    served XHMTL page to IE and it will invite you to download it, not display
    it.

    >> "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    >> different tags."
    >>
    >> Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    >> This is where I gave up on your tutorial.

    >
    >
    > I am sorry to hear that. Again, I don't want to make it too complicated
    > to start with. And I don't think there is anything wrong in that
    > formulation. The element is part of the tag,


    Wrong. The tag is part of the element.

    Consider a paragraph element. It starts with a <p> tag. It then has some
    [optional] content. Then it ends with a closing </p> tag. Quite clear.
    [element] == [start tag][content][close tag].

    > which is explained later
    > in the tutorial:


    Didn't get that far.

    > "The basic part of a tag is called an element (for example the p in
    > <p>).


    The basic part of a tag?

    Oh my. Sorry but how wrong.

    >Thus, a tag consists of either just an element (for example <p>),
    > or an element plus one or more attributes (for example <p
    > style="background-color:#ff0000;">). Simple as that."


    Nope. Just wrong. Simply wrong.

    Slide over to the specifications (you know where they are). Read them again.
    Them read them again. Then see if your "tag centric" approach works.

    > Thanks for your comments.


    NP

    --
    Richard.
     
    rf, Sep 4, 2006
    #7
  8. rf Guest

    Full quoted on purpose.

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >> > "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    >> > different tags."
    >> >
    >> > Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    >> > This is where I gave up on your tutorial.

    >>
    >>
    >> I am sorry to hear that. Again, I don't want to make it too complicated
    >> to start with. And I don't think there is anything wrong in that
    >> formulation. The element is part of the tag, which is explained later
    >> in the tutorial:
    >>
    >> "The basic part of a tag is called an element (for example the p in
    >> <p>). Thus, a tag consists of either just an element (for example <p>),
    >> or an element plus one or more attributes (for example <p
    >> style="background-color:#ff0000;">). Simple as that."
    >>

    >
    > You might actually be right on this one. I am sorry to admit :)
    >
    > Any suggestions for a more correct formulation?
    >


    Er, what? Don't understand at all, apart from my being rignt :)

    --
    Richard.
     
    rf, Sep 4, 2006
    #8
  9. Guest

    > Nope. Just wrong. Simply wrong.

    My mistake. Very very embarrassing! I will have a look at this. Thanks!

    But please don't judge the whole tutorial over this.
     
    , Sep 4, 2006
    #9
  10. Andy Dingley Guest

    wrote:

    > "In this tutorial you will learn so-called XHTML (Extensible HyperText
    > Mark-up Language) which, in short, is a new and more well-structured
    > way of writing HTML."


    > "what you have learned in this tutorial is a new and stricter and
    > cleaner version of HTML called XHTML."


    XHTML is newer, cleaner and more structured. What XHTML is not, is a
    _replacement_ for HTML. What do we want our finished students to be
    producing, when they go off to write pages on their own? The general
    opinion locally is that is should be valid HTML 4.01 Strict, and that
    it should follow most aspects of XML formation (explicitly paired tags,
    quoted attributes) but not the closing of empty tags.

    This tutorial is the very lowest entry-level beginners' tutorial
    possible (and that's a good thing). Given the choice between confusing
    them, fully teaching a complex issue and simply teaching them to ignore
    XHTML, then (personally) I teach the existence of XHTML and the total
    avoidance of it in practice. The audience for this tutorial just don't
    _need_ to know about XHTML. We can also teach the XML-like syntax as
    an issue of good practice - point out that older code omitted it, but
    make it clear that this is an old and bad practice that shouldn't be
    followed.

    Students _like_ to know that they're only getting a partial story, so
    long as it's presented properly. Tell them that it is complex and
    you're teaching them the core they _really_ need to know is
    understandable, appreciated and seen as a relief. Telling them there's
    more to learn if they _want_ to, is an encouragement for those who want
    to take it further. We don't have to (as some tutorials have) take a
    deliberately (if beneficiently) misleading line that "HTML 4 is dead"
    or that all code must be valid (it clearly isn't, on many major sites).
    Students are ignorant, not stupid - they're capable of appreciating the
    subtlety, so long as we're honest with them.



    > If the site becomes an succes we will definitely consider
    > an advanced HTML tutorial.


    I don't think the site's style is appropriate for "advanced", which is
    why I said "more HTML". Your market is the mass entry level, not the
    geek-larvae (and all the better for it).

    My current HTML tutorial recommendation is "Head First" -- a big thick
    book that's still just an _introduction_ to advanced HTML, not the
    totality of it. Also there's a lot of people who could benefit from
    your site, but would be scared off by an "advanced" label.

    Incidentally "Head First" pulls off the HTML / XHTML issue better than
    any other tutorial I've seen.

    rf wrote:

    > > "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    > > different tags."

    >
    > Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    >
    > HTML is *not* about tags, it is about *elements*. An element consists of a
    > start tag, some [optional] content and usually (HTML) an end tag.


    I would disagree with this. XML (and XHTML) is about elements, but HTML
    is still very much about tags.

    - We commonly talk about tags. They _are_ the lingua franca
    description of what we work with, and it's pretentious to change this
    unless you're an expert discussing the subtleties with other experts.

    - We _are_ working with tags. We're using SGML parsing, and that's
    based on tags. SGML doesn't even have elements in the document, it can
    only create the notion of an element after we've parsed the document
    into the DOM. Although it's invalid to mis-nest the tags as you
    describe, it's still perfectly valid HTML to omit the closing </p>. You
    can only understand how HTML actually works, at a level that's
    important to understand, if you are familiar with this.

    I teach tags. I don't teach elements prominently until I teach XML or
    DOM. I do teach good nesting and closing habits for tags and I use the
    term "element", but I focus my description of the document around the
    tags, not around elements that may not even exist until after parsing.

    > This is where I gave up on your tutorial.


    This is a significant and complex issue, and the good answers to it are
    far from obvious. I certainly wouldn't give up on this tutorial, for
    how they've handled it (OTOH some "tutorials" are sheer garbage
    because of it)
     
    Andy Dingley, Sep 4, 2006
    #10
  11. wrote:
    > We launced HTML.net earlier this year. I hope it is all right to post a
    > link to the tutorials here. Hopefully, it can be of help to anyone who
    > want to learn HTML and/or CSS:
    >
    > HTML tutorial: http://www.html.net/tutorials/html/introduction.asp
    >
    > CSS tutorial:http://www.html.net/tutorials/css/introduction.asp
    >
    > Any comments and feedback will be appreciated.
    >

    Aside of the tag|element confusion already discussed at length in the
    thread, in the HTML tutorial I would restrict your markup examples to
    semantic structure and avoid deprecated elements and attributes right
    from the start. For example I would not have used B, I but focused on P
    and UL, LI, TABLE.... basic page construction and leave out all styling
    until your CSS tutorial. Or if the example requires some styling, note
    it (maybe color-code the CSS part) and link to associated section in
    your CSS tutorial. Get newbies pointed away from '90s markup methods
    there is enough of those tutorials online already.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, Sep 4, 2006
    #11
  12. Ed Seedhouse Guest

    On 4 Sep 2006 06:25:40 -0700, wrote:

    >> "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    >> different tags."


    >> Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    >> This is where I gave up on your tutorial.


    >I am sorry to hear that. Again, I don't want to make it too complicated
    >to start with. And I don't think there is anything wrong in that
    >formulation. The element is part of the tag, which is explained later
    >in the tutorial:


    Um, no. Tags are just the method of delimiting elements. An element is
    a start-end tag pair and all that is between them. Styles are applied
    to elements, not tags. It is the element that is the fundamental unit
    of html.
     
    Ed Seedhouse, Sep 4, 2006
    #12
  13. rf wrote:
    >
    > HTML is *not* about tags, it is about *elements*. An element consists of a
    > start tag, some [optional] content and usually (HTML) an end tag.


    The "usually" also applies to the start tag.
     
    Harlan Messinger, Sep 5, 2006
    #13
  14. wrote:
    >>> "HTML is tags - and nothing but tags. To learn HTML is to learn and use
    >>> different tags."
    >>>
    >>> Nothing could be more wrong IMHO.
    >>> This is where I gave up on your tutorial.

    >>
    >> I am sorry to hear that. Again, I don't want to make it too complicated
    >> to start with. And I don't think there is anything wrong in that
    >> formulation. The element is part of the tag, which is explained later
    >> in the tutorial:
    >>
    >> "The basic part of a tag is called an element (for example the p in
    >> <p>). Thus, a tag consists of either just an element (for example <p>),
    >> or an element plus one or more attributes (for example <p
    >> style="background-color:#ff0000;">). Simple as that."
    >>

    >
    > You might actually be right on this one. I am sorry to admit :)


    He is. The name inside the tag isn't the element itself, but the name of
    the element that the tag delimits. Some elements are inferred in a
    document even without any tags to indicate their presence. The following
    is a valid HTML document (minus the DOCTYPE):

    <title>Good Morning</title>
    <p>Have fun!</p>

    A proper HTML agent will treat this as a document with an HTML element
    containing a HEAD element and a BODY element. For all three of these
    elements, both start *and* end tags are optional. (But please don't make
    life difficult by omitting them. Leaving out optional tags can make code
    harder to maintain.) Since the TITLE element belongs in the HEAD element
    and the P element belongs in the BODY element, the agent correctly
    inserts each of them where it belongs in its internal representation of
    the document.

    Also, any time you have a table without TBODY tags, a TBODY element is
    imputed, and all the TR elements that aren't in a THEAD or TFOOT are
    placed inside it.

    Aside from that, I appreciate the desire to keep things simple, but it
    can be a real pain to discuss code when people keep using the wrong
    names for things--like when they call attributes "tags", as in "Your
    images are missing ALT tags". When tags are tags but elements,
    attributes, and document type declarations are also tags, it's hard to
    be confident that what people have in mind corresponds to what they are
    saying.
     
    Harlan Messinger, Sep 5, 2006
    #14
  15. <> scripsit:

    > We launced HTML.net earlier this year.


    "We"? Never mind, I wouldn't take you seriously even if you wrote under your
    real name, after reading the discussion here.

    It is advisable to read a good tutorial before trying to read one. You
    apparently didn't.

    --
    Jukka K. Korpela ("Yucca")
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
     
    Jukka K. Korpela, Sep 7, 2006
    #15
  16. Andy Dingley Guest

    Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    > "We"? Never mind, I wouldn't take you seriously even if you wrote under your
    > real name, after reading the discussion here.


    That's a shame. Why not actually read the thing ? Your opinion would
    be valued.
     
    Andy Dingley, Sep 8, 2006
    #16
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