Limiting content width - DIV or BODY?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Michael Laplante, Apr 29, 2006.

  1. I'm trying to produce a "print friendly" version of a page. I used:

    <body style="width: 75%; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;">

    In Netscape and FF, this produced a page with a margin about it nicely
    centered on the page.
    However, IE's output is clear across the page with no margins.

    Best way to solve this problem?

    Use a div instead?
    Use a table for a brute force method?
    Tweak my <body> tag somehow for IE?

    I'm relatively new to CSS.

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, Apr 29, 2006
    #1
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  2. Michael Laplante

    BootNic Guest

    > "Michael Laplante" <> wrote:
    > news:qdy4g.2673$Yy5.1872@edtnps89....
    >
    > I'm trying to produce a "print friendly" version of a page. I used:
    >
    > <body style="width: 75%; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;">
    >
    > In Netscape and FF, this produced a page with a margin about it
    > nicely centered on the page.
    > However, IE's output is clear across the page with no margins.
    >
    > Best way to solve this problem?
    >
    > Use a div instead?
    > Use a table for a brute force method?
    > Tweak my <body> tag somehow for IE?
    >
    > I'm relatively new to CSS.


    Are you using any kind of Document Type?

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

    --
    BootNic Saturday, April 29, 2006 2:37 AM

    If the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts.
    *Albert Einstein *
     
    BootNic, Apr 29, 2006
    #2
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  3. Michael Laplante

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Michael Laplante wrote:

    > I'm trying to produce a "print friendly" version of a page.


    Stop trying. Use a print stylesheet instead.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Apr 29, 2006
    #3
  4. "Toby Inkster" <> wrote in message
    news:5n.co.uk...
    > Michael Laplante wrote:


    > Stop trying. Use a print stylesheet instead.


    Not very helpful, I'm afraid. From:
    http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PrintStylesheets
    --Quote--
    When printing Web documents, margins are set in the browser's Page Setup (or
    Print Setup) dialog box. These margin settings, although set within the
    browser, are controlled at the operating system/printer driver level and are
    not controllable at the HTML/CSS/DOM level. (For CSS-controlled printed page
    headers and footers see PrintingHeaders.)
    ....
    When subsequently printing pages, you may find that the top or bottom line
    of text is "cut off", or find even worse page-break mangling (see "Page
    Breaks" below). If so, slightly increase the top or bottom margin
    respectively. Experiments with my own sites suggest that a generous bottom
    margin will reduce page-break problems (it forms a kind of overflow area).
    However, adjusting margins is under the control of browser users rather than
    developers and you can place no reliance on its having been done at all, let
    alone well.
    In your site's screen stylesheet, you may have chosen to set margins and
    padding on the <body> element (browsers set their own default values). If
    you have a print stylesheet, you will probably want to set the values for
    margin and padding to zero since the user's "print margins", as described
    above, must be assumed to be sufficient (and what the user wants).
    -- End quote--

    So that tells me that a print stylesheet won't necessarily guarantee the
    margins I'm looking for. For now, I've used the table "brute force" method
    which works in both IE and FF. The CSS equivalent -- to my mind -- would be
    a "container" of suitably narrowl fixed width, centered on the page. I
    figured that <body> or <div> could be the containers, but apparently it's
    not that easy.

    If anyone has an elegant -- and relatively simple -- CSS method, please let
    me know.

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, Apr 30, 2006
    #4
  5. Michael Laplante

    kchayka Guest

    Michael Laplante wrote:
    > "Toby Inkster" <> wrote in message
    > news:5n.co.uk...
    >> Michael Laplante wrote:

    >
    >> Stop trying. Use a print stylesheet instead.

    >
    > Not very helpful, I'm afraid. From:
    > http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PrintStylesheets


    Hmmm... That article was written 3 years ago. Browsers change, except
    for IE, anyway. ;) FWIW, I use print stylesheets all the time and
    rarely have a problem with them.

    > So that tells me that a print stylesheet won't necessarily guarantee the
    > margins I'm looking for.


    Why do you need specific margins? If you are trying to print something
    like a form, you may be much better off providing the print version as
    a PDF instead.

    > For now, I've used the table "brute force" method
    > which works in both IE and FF.


    For some value of "works", I'm sure. :-\

    You've decided on the solution without properly identifying the
    problem, so the answer may not be what you think. Post a URL, so we
    can see what you're on about.

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, Apr 30, 2006
    #5
  6. "kchayka" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Michael Laplante wrote:


    > Why do you need specific margins? If you are trying to print something
    > like a form, you may be much better off providing the print version as
    > a PDF instead.


    I never said I needed specific margins or even margins at all. I simply want
    some sort of margin to make the printed output more visually appealing to
    the end user. I simply wanted to know why my one line CSS solution didn't
    work and what SIMPLE alternatives existed.

    >> For now, I've used the table "brute force" method
    >> which works in both IE and FF.

    >
    > For some value of "works", I'm sure. :-\


    ??

    > You've decided on the solution without properly identifying the
    > problem


    I would think that I'm the best person to identify my problem, doncha think?
    By presuming to identify my problem, you've made some incorrect assumptions
    about the situation. That, in turn, led you to propose a solution that has
    nothing to do with what I am trying to accomplish.

    However, if you re-read my original post, you could help me with a SOLUTION
    to the problem as I identified it.

    FWIW, a sample page is here:
    http://www.bcfirstaid.com/adult.htm

    Halfway down you see a link to a print version. Right now I've used "brute
    force" technique -- a single cell table of fixed width that produces the
    same output in IE, FF and Netscape. Unsophisticated but entirely sufficient
    with only six simple tags required.

    Print stylesheets have some merit, but aren't without their own issues. Can
    you propose a simpler technique? Can you tell me why my original solution
    wouldn't work? I look forward to your reply.

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, May 1, 2006
    #6
  7. Michael Laplante

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Michael Laplante
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > I never said I needed specific margins or even margins at all.


    Yes you did:

    > So that tells me that a print stylesheet won't necessarily guarantee the
    > margins I'm looking for.


    Message-id: <xwS4g.2134$cZ3.1371@clgrps13>

    > I simply want
    > some sort of margin to make the printed output more visually appealing to
    > the end user.


    See? You said it again.

    > I simply wanted to know why my one line CSS solution didn't
    > work and what SIMPLE alternatives existed.


    Get rid of all that absolute positioning. You're making it far more
    complicated than it needs to be.

    > I would think that I'm the best person to identify my problem, doncha think?


    Not necessarily. Given the evidence available, I'd say certainly not.

    > By presuming to identify my problem, you've made some incorrect assumptions
    > about the situation.


    Only because you didn't provide enough information in the first place,
    namely a URL.

    > FWIW, a sample page is here:
    > http://www.bcfirstaid.com/adult.htm


    As I said above, most likely it's all the absolute positioning that's
    causing problems.

    > Print stylesheets have some merit, but aren't without their own issues.


    Such as? I haven't ever had problems with them.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
     
    Mark Parnell, May 1, 2006
    #7
  8. "Mark Parnell" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Michael Laplante
    > <> declared in alt.html:
    >
    >> I never said I needed specific margins or even margins at all.

    >
    > Yes you did:


    >> I simply wanted to know why my one line CSS solution didn't
    >> work and what SIMPLE alternatives existed.

    >
    > Get rid of all that absolute positioning. You're making it far more
    > complicated than it needs to be.


    How so? Why does absolute positioning make it complicated? What would you do
    to "simplify it?" How does this relate to my wanting (not needing) a margin
    for aesthetic purposes?

    >> I would think that I'm the best person to identify my problem, doncha
    >> think?

    >
    > Not necessarily. Given the evidence available, I'd say certainly not.


    Do you have a solution or not?

    >
    >> By presuming to identify my problem, you've made some incorrect
    >> assumptions
    >> about the situation.

    >
    > Only because you didn't provide enough information in the first place,
    > namely a URL.
    >
    >> FWIW, a sample page is here:
    >> http://www.bcfirstaid.com/adult.htm

    >
    > As I said above, most likely it's all the absolute positioning that's
    > causing problems.


    "Most likely?" So you aren't sure? Should I use relative positioning? Will
    that give me margins with my original body tag?
    >
    >> Print stylesheets have some merit, but aren't without their own issues.


    > Such as? I haven't ever had problems with them.


    A printsheet is a SIMPLE CSS solution to my margins issue? Can you point me
    to a sample of one of your print stylesheets that would give me margins.

    Aside from vague comments and guesses you haven't demonstrated any depth of
    knowledge here. Are you considered one of the experts in this ng?

    Please go "help" someone else. . .
     
    Michael Laplante, May 1, 2006
    #8
  9. "BootNic" <> wrote in message
    news:tRD4g.5384$...
    > "Michael Laplante" <> wrote:
    > news:qdy4g.2673$Yy5.1872@edtnps89....


    Are you using any kind of Document Type?

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

    Thanks. Tried it but in IE it still prints from edge to edge unless I use
    printer setup to set margins.

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, May 1, 2006
    #9
  10. Michael Laplante

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Michael Laplante
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Please go "help" someone else. . .


    As you wish.

    --
    Mark Parnell
    My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
     
    Mark Parnell, May 1, 2006
    #10
  11. Michael Laplante

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Z%p5g.2928$Yy5.1479@edtnps89>,
    "Michael Laplante" <> wrote:

    > Aside from vague comments and guesses you haven't demonstrated any depth of
    > knowledge here. Are you considered one of the experts in this ng?
    >
    > Please go "help" someone else. . .


    Yes, he is an expert and a good mate of mine (he has been seen
    trying to disown me in pubs around Sydney, but so what? Haven't
    you heard of the concept of unrequited mateship?)

    Your html at http://www.bcfirstaid.com/adult.htm does not
    validate.

    Your chances of getting folk here to look at code auto-generated
    by software is low. There are too many issues with the codes so
    generated generally.

    It is good advice to be rid of tricky absolute positioning if you
    can do without it.

    Your blue menu floats to sometimes obscure text or look oddly
    misplaced (it looks to have no place!). And it breaks badly when
    text is enlarged.

    --
    dorayme
     
    dorayme, May 2, 2006
    #11
  12. "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <Z%p5g.2928$Yy5.1479@edtnps89>,
    > "Michael Laplante" <> wrote:


    > It is good advice to be rid of tricky absolute positioning if you
    > can do without it.


    Because. . .? Your mate said the same thing but didn't offer up a reason.
    Even point me to a tutorial on the evils of absolute positioning and I'll be
    impressed and grateful.

    > Your blue menu floats to sometimes obscure text or look oddly
    > misplaced (it looks to have no place!). And it breaks badly when
    > text is enlarged.


    You're the first one who has ever mentioned this. Nor can I can replicate
    this behaviour in any of my three browsers. What browser / version are you
    using? Do you use a personalized stylesheet?

    "It looks to have no place!" Can you expand on that?

    What do you mean by "breaks badly?' Lots of pages -- even ones that
    validate -- break badly when text is enlarged.

    Any suggestions re: my original request for margins? I don't need 'em
    necessarily, nor do I need a specific size as some earlier respondants
    assumed. I can always leave it up to the user to do it via their printer
    settings. For me it's just a "nice to do" thing. Toby Inkster suggested
    print stylesheets but they aren't going to be simple -- in this case -- from
    what I've been reading. (DIVS not printing across pages, tables breaking at
    inconvenient points, pagebreak not recognized by all browsers, etc.)

    Thanks. . .

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, May 2, 2006
    #12
  13. Michael Laplante

    Jose Guest

    >>It is good advice to be rid of tricky absolute positioning if you
    >>> can do without it.

    >
    >
    > Because. . .?


    Because absolute positioning depends on the user having the same
    settings that you have. She doesn't. She has a bigger screen (or a
    smaller one) and doesn't have or want the entire window covered with
    your content - she is doing something else in another window at the same
    time. She can't see very well so she has increased her default font
    size (making a mess of your pixel perfect layout).

    > What do you mean by "breaks badly?' Lots of pages -- even ones that
    > validate -- break badly when text is enlarged.


    .... because they are badly designed. Pages can validate perfectly and
    be awful.

    > Any suggestions re: my original request for [printer?] margins?


    You can't do it (reliably). If you want layout on the printed page, use
    a LINK to a .pdf version of your page.

    Jose
    --
    The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
     
    Jose, May 2, 2006
    #13
  14. Michael Laplante wrote:
    > "dorayme" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> In article <Z%p5g.2928$Yy5.1479@edtnps89>,
    >> "Michael Laplante" <> wrote:

    >
    >> It is good advice to be rid of tricky absolute positioning if you
    >> can do without it.

    >
    > Because. . .? Your mate said the same thing but didn't offer up a reason.
    > Even point me to a tutorial on the evils of absolute positioning and I'll be
    > impressed and grateful.


    Because absolute breaks out of the flow of the document and all your
    positioning is defined in pixels. But you have

    a) no control over what fonts the user has installed on his computer
    b) what his default font site is set to
    c) what his browser default margin sizes are set to

    so with pixels position placed blocks within the document the text may
    or MAY NOT fit properly when printed.

    You can either design with more flexible layout where placement is
    proportional to the text or if you must have precision printing use PDF.

    >
    >> Your blue menu floats to sometimes obscure text or look oddly
    >> misplaced (it looks to have no place!). And it breaks badly when
    >> text is enlarged.

    >
    > You're the first one who has ever mentioned this. Nor can I can replicate
    > this behaviour in any of my three browsers. What browser / version are you
    > using? Do you use a personalized stylesheet?
    >
    > "It looks to have no place!" Can you expand on that?
    >
    > What do you mean by "breaks badly?' Lots of pages -- even ones that
    > validate -- break badly when text is enlarged.
    >


    In Gecko browsers, (Firefox, SeaMonkey, Netscape, et al.) If you hit
    CTRL + just twice the menu text grows larger than the block element LI
    so the bottom of the text is chop off. I'd call that broken. The height
    is constrained with absolute values rather than proportional to the text.

    Which browsers have you check it in, IE only?

    > Any suggestions re: my original request for margins? I don't need 'em
    > necessarily, nor do I need a specific size as some earlier respondants
    > assumed. I can always leave it up to the user to do it via their printer
    > settings. For me it's just a "nice to do" thing. Toby Inkster suggested
    > print stylesheets but they aren't going to be simple -- in this case -- from
    > what I've been reading. (DIVS not printing across pages, tables breaking at
    > inconvenient points, pagebreak not recognized by all browsers, etc.)


    BTW your markup a hodge-podge of deprecated markup and CSS. At least 6
    years out of date. Update your markup and your results will work better
    with modern browsers.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
     
    Jonathan N. Little, May 2, 2006
    #14
  15. Michael Laplante

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, dorayme
    <> declared in alt.html:

    > Yes, he is an expert and a good mate of mine


    Why, thank you ma'am.

    > (he has been seen
    > trying to disown me in pubs around Sydney, but so what? Haven't
    > you heard of the concept of unrequited mateship?)


    You owe me a drink. ;-)

    --
    Mark Parnell
    My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
    http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html
     
    Mark Parnell, May 2, 2006
    #15
  16. Michael Laplante

    kchayka Guest

    Michael Laplante wrote:
    > "kchayka" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >> You've decided on the solution without properly identifying the
    >> problem

    >
    > I would think that I'm the best person to identify my problem, doncha think?


    No, I think you're trying to fix the wrong problem. You just don't
    realize it.

    > By presuming to identify my problem, you've made some incorrect assumptions


    No, I neither identified your problem, nor assumed anything. I merely
    made a suggestion based on a hypothetical situation, because I didn't
    know what your real problem was.

    > if you re-read my original post, you could help me with a SOLUTION
    > to the problem as I identified it.


    Sorry, but you didn't really identify the problem. You identified some
    symptoms, but the underlying problem was still a mystery.

    > FWIW, a sample page is here:
    > http://www.bcfirstaid.com/adult.htm


    Your sample page pretty much confirms my suspicion that you are
    hacking away at something without really understanding what you're
    doing. If you did, it is extremely unlikely the stylesheet would
    include things like height:9001px

    Stuff like that is a dead give-away that you don't understand it.

    > Halfway down you see a link to a print version. Right now I've used "brute
    > force" technique -- a single cell table of fixed width that produces the
    > same output in IE, FF and Netscape. Unsophisticated but entirely sufficient


    And should be entirely unnecessary.

    > Print stylesheets have some merit, but aren't without their own issues.


    There is no reason *not* to use a simple print stylesheet. They work
    remarkably well if you know how to use them properly.

    > Can you tell me why my original solution wouldn't work?


    Sorry, but your code is ugly and not worth fixing. Your HTML doesn't
    validate. You're mixing HTML style attributes with CSS, and mixing
    inline and external CSS. Consider yourself lucky that anything "works"
    at all.

    You should start over and do it right from the beginning, instead of
    more hacking away at this thing. Why don't you go get some ready-made
    CSS templates that are already well-tested out? You might learn from
    them. Here is a place to start:
    <URL:http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts>

    > I look forward to your reply.


    Maybe, but you probably don't like it now that you've heard it. ;)

    BTW, Mark gave you good advice about dropping all the positioning.
    Chances are you don't need any at all, but in the event you do, don't
    use it unless you first understand how it works and what the
    repercussions are. That goes for both absolute and relative
    positioning, as well as floats.

    CSS is not something that you can learn overnight. It takes time,
    patience and practice. Just don't be close-minded about it and things
    will get easier.

    --
    Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
    Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
     
    kchayka, May 2, 2006
    #16
  17. "Jose" <> wrote in message
    news:lOz5g.5603$...
    >>>It is good advice to be rid of tricky absolute positioning if you
    >>>> can do without it.


    > Because absolute positioning depends on the user having the same settings
    > that you have.


    I essentially designed my site for 800x600 px screensize and up, using a
    <div align=center> container which keeps everything relative to the screen.
    I've checked out some award-winning websites and this is technique seems
    common. So the absolute positioning is only relative to the container not
    the screen.

    Refs:
    http://www.aawebmasters.com/
    http://www.webaward.org/

    However, a picture = 1K words. Can you give me a URL for a site that uses
    only relative positioning so I can study it? Better yet if I can see the
    stylesheet behind it. Something that mixes a variety of staggered containers
    with images and text among them. I can't visualize how it can be done.

    > She can't see very well so she has increased her default font size (making
    > a mess of your pixel perfect layout).


    I've never come a across a site of any sophistication that can't be "messed
    up" by increasing font size, particulary in Gecko browsers so I don't think
    this observation is valid. (Unless you're sticking with simple columns which
    isn't what I'd call sophisticated.) But again, showing me a URL to prove
    your point would be educational.

    >> What do you mean by "breaks badly?' Lots of pages -- even ones that
    >> validate -- break badly when text is enlarged.

    >
    > ... because they are badly designed. Pages can validate perfectly and be
    > awful.


    Well, once again, I re-iterate I've been to award-winning websites that
    "break" with enlarged text so I don't think you can attribute them to bad
    design. Otherwise, the definition of good design simply becomes any website
    simple enough that it doesn't break. (circular logic and all. . .)

    But once again, show me a URL to a reasonably sophisticated website that
    validates, uses a good mix of graphics and text in a variety of staggered
    containers and I'll check it out.

    >> Any suggestions re: my original request for [printer?] margins?

    >
    > You can't do it (reliably). If you want layout on the printed page, use a
    > LINK to a .pdf version of your page.


    I think you may be right here.

    Thanks for responding with some meaningful comments. If you can feed me some
    URLs that illustrate your points I'd like to check them out.

    HTML novice,

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, May 2, 2006
    #17
  18. "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote in message
    news:4456d211$0$3708$...
    > Michael Laplante wrote:


    > so with pixels position placed blocks within the document the text may or
    > MAY NOT fit properly when printed.


    I agree. However, in theory, a print stylesheet would "redesign" the page
    for print. I've been experimenting with print stylesheets. Essentially I
    turn off all the graphic elements, and re-size the center container and the
    text containers. However, I run into one of two issues:

    In Gecko browser, DIV elements don't print across pages. But, if I get rid
    of the DIV, I then encounter the margin problem in IE.
    I haven't figured out a way around this and haven't come across any
    references that offer a fool proof way around it either.

    > You can either design with more flexible layout where placement is
    > proportional to the text or if you must have precision printing use PDF.


    Agree that PDF seems to be the only sure way right now.

    > In Gecko browsers, (Firefox, SeaMonkey, Netscape, et al.) If you hit CTRL
    > + just twice the menu text grows larger than the block element LI so the
    > bottom of the text is chop off. I'd call that broken. The height is
    > constrained with absolute values rather than proportional to the text.


    Aah, there's something I didn't know. I can set up containers that will
    re-size and maintain their relative vertical spacing with changing text
    size. How do I do this? (URL to a tutorial?)

    > BTW your markup a hodge-podge of deprecated markup and CSS.


    No argument. Thass why I'm here. . . :)

    M
     
    Michael Laplante, May 2, 2006
    #18
  19. Michael Laplante

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Michael Laplante wrote:

    > In Gecko browser, DIV elements don't print across pages.


    You're probably using absolute positioning in your print style sheet -- a
    recipe for disaster.

    Try the following print CSS:

    #Osidebar, #Owbkgd, #Ohrtbt, #Otitle, #Ocuff,
    #Ofadebar, #Obluesdbr, #Onavmenu, #Ovan
    { display: none; }
    #Ologo, #Opagetitle
    { text-align: center; }
    #Ocontent
    { margin: 0 2em; }

    Save that as "print.css". Now replace this:

    <link type="text/css" href="mystyles.css" rel="stylesheet" />

    with this:

    <link type="text/css" href="mystyles.css" rel="stylesheet"
    media="screen,projection">
    <link type="text/css" href="print.css" rel="stylesheet"
    media="print">

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, May 2, 2006
    #19
  20. Michael Laplante

    Jose Guest

    > I essentially designed my site for 800x600 px screensize and up, using a
    > <div align=center> container which keeps everything relative to the screen.
    > I've checked out some award-winning websites and this is technique seems
    > common. So the absolute positioning is only relative to the container not
    > the screen.


    This goes to show that awards are not useful indicators of website
    "goodness". By forcing your visitors to use up 800x600 of their screen
    in order to see your site, you are doing them a disservice. Sadly, on
    the web people are getting inured to disservice, but nonetheless,
    somebody has to stick up for the cattl... customers. :)

    Do not design for an 800x600 viewport. Design for an arbitrary
    viewport, and let your design flow smoothly whatever size of screen your
    visitor has, or deigns to release to you.

    > However, a picture = 1K words. Can you give me a URL for a site that uses
    > only relative positioning so I can study it?


    I could do that, but then I'd have to kill you.

    The site I run uses only relative positioning. However I commit other
    sins, so keep that in mind.
    http://www.flying20club.org
    I do not use CSS (I don't know it yet - I just recently rescued this
    site from a previous webmaster who used FrontPlague), and I do use
    tables for layout (although I do very little that requires layout).
    There are other sins of which I am aware and I doubt the site validates;
    this is an interim solution. Further, since I don't have control over
    the account, I don't have the tools to set some things up properly (such
    as .php and server side scripting). The site is not "sophisticated" at
    all, but there is nothing on the site that wants sophistication, and
    misplaced sophistication is a Bad Thing.

    However, I have endeavored to make the site fluid, so that any viewport
    size would work, and I have endeavored to respect user preferences.

    Sometime in the future I intend to learn how to do .php so that
    maintanance is easier, and I will be looking into CSS (though I've seen
    so much bad CSS done I enter with trepidation).

    > Otherwise, the definition of good design simply becomes any website
    > simple enough that it doesn't break...


    My definition is one that
    1: respects the user's preferences
    2: accomplishes the goal of the USER (not the necessarily the webmaster)
    3: is easy to use and not distracting
    4: is not more sophisticated than necessary.

    Jose
    --
    The price of freedom is... well... freedom.
    for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
     
    Jose, May 2, 2006
    #20
    1. Advertising

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