J
jake
In message <[email protected]>, Mark
.......... references that are well past their sell-by date.
regards.
.......... references that are well past their sell-by date.
regards.
M
Mark Parnell
Previously in alt.html said:
Portions of some of those pages are probably a little outdated, but on
the whole they are still relevant.
T
Travis Newbury
kchayka said:
I am not disagreeing with you but anecdotal proof is worthless.
J
jake
The problem that I have with these sources is that they fail to presentMark said:
the situations accurately.
Example:
".... When bookmarking a page, visitors expect to bookmark the exact
page of information, but the frameset gets bookmarked instead so when
users follow this bookmark they then have to hunt for the relevant page
every time. ...."
As users of IE6 will know, they've been able to bookmark the *context*
correctly ever since day one.
'Favorites' --> 'Add to favorites'
The manufacturers of other (newer) browsers don't even seem to consider
this worth implementing.
Not that I'm recommending the use of frames (except where they are the
best tool for the job) -- just questioning the bogosity of many/most
arguments in the 'references' so often quoted.
regards.
'Frames': not evil -- just a little misunderstood ;-)
J
jake
[QUOTE="kchayka said:
I guess you don't hang around "normal" computer users much.
[/QUOTE]
You'd be surprised at how 'normal' some of them can be ;-)
What if she'd gone to a page where the page's javascript, plugins etc.
had ensured that her back-button would never work again? Now *that*
would be confusing ;-)
If you say so.
regards
K
kchayka
Travis said:
What makes you think it's merely anecdotal? Because I didn't mention
that I usually observe while she's trying to do a particular task, and
not just random surfing (or whatever)? It may not be formal usability
testing, but it is pretty darned good for seeing a more "normal" point
of view. It sure gives me extra stuff to think about, like not opening
new, full-size windows...
E
Els
kchayka said:What makes you think it's merely anecdotal? Because I didn't mention
that I usually observe while she's trying to do a particular task, and
not just random surfing (or whatever)? It may not be formal usability
testing, but it is pretty darned good for seeing a more "normal" point
of view. It sure gives me extra stuff to think about, like not opening
new, full-size windows...
And I know it's not just your sister either.
I myself never used the back-button much, but when I showed my site to
a friend who isn't very computer savvy at all, I was surprised to see
her click the back-button all the time.
I also saw it happen in my Statcounter logs. Those logs are based on a
piece of JavaScript, and show people entering a site, and instead of
just "disappearing" after having seen 5 pages, I saw them 'reverse'
out of my site by means of the back button. Happens more often than I
personally thought logical.
R
Richard Cornford
randau said:
Practice, it will become second nature.
I don't ever care, if I want to branch my exploration then I open links
in new windows, otherwise I don't. It makes no difference to me whether
the link is internal or external.
It is quite patronising to assume that the visitors to your web site
don't know what they are doing. But I suppose that if you have a "target
audience" that is notoriously dim for some reason or another, and think
they could be better informed, then you could supply them with
information on using their own browsers.
It is not a bad thing to be thinking about your users, but you shouldn't
think of them as all being like you, or even all being alike. People
actually vary quite a lot in their knowledge and capabilities and action
taken in order to favour any sub-group is of questionable worth if it
acts against the interests of another.
Richard.
A
Alan J. Flavell
If they don't want to do it, then they have no need to learn. That's
not your problem.
If you think they're too dim to understand how to use their own
browser, then what on EARTH is the point of using a technique that
will cause behaviour on your web site which differs from the default?
That only rates to cause confusion to users who, by your hypothesis,
are to dim to understand what they're doing.
If you want to bring them any benefits at all, then IMHO you'd be
better advised to offer them some suggestions on how to use their own
browser to better effect. That would be teaching them something that
rates to work consistently on any other web site too, not specifically
on yours.
<devilsadvocate>You might want to show them how to disable javascript
to get more consistent results with evil sites that try to block
useful functionality like Back button etc.</>
If you're sincerely worried about the difference between internal and
external links, then by all means use different colours for the links,
and/or use one of those picon thingies which show the difference (with
a suitable alt text, naturally).
T
Toby Inkster
Els said:
Doesn't seem logical to me. Why would they want to leave *your* site? Are
you sure there aren't people with mental health problems?
K
kchayka
Els said:
My sister does the same thing. It's kinda bizarre to watch.
E
Els
Toby said:
Unfortunately JavaScript doesn't tell me their mental state. You're
good with scripts - can't you write one that does? ;-)
T
Toby Inkster
Els said:
<script type="text/javascript">
var answer = confirm("Do you want to leave the site?");
var i = new Image();
if (answer) {
i.src = "/counters/mad-people.cgi";
} else {
i.src = "/counters/non-mad-people.cgi";
}
</script>
E
Els
Toby said:
<g>
Makes me think about adding an "Exit" link to my navigation and having
some scripts run from there
S
Stan Blazejewski
Fair enough (you learn something new every day), but that doesn't explain why it
refuses to resize in a frame but works fine in a separate window. Obviously, IE
has this defaulted to 'on' so I expect most people (like myself) would be
getting a resized picture.
--
Australia isn't "down under", it's "off to one side"!
(e-mail address removed)
www.cobracat.com (home of the Australian Cobra Catamaran)
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cobra-cat/
M
Mark Parnell
Previously in alt.html said:
As a non-user of IE6, I didn't know that.
But that is just anexample of something that is outdated as I agreed before - presumably
that page was written before IE6 came out.
Then with the decrease in IE's market share (and the high number of
users still using older versions of IE), that comment is becoming more
true, though admittedly it needs some qualifying re: IE6.
TBH, I haven't read them for a while. Perhaps it is time to re-evaluate
them.
Saying they are 'evil' *is* a bit over the top. I do believe that frames
have some uses, however I don't believe that any of those uses are on
the public web.
It seems we agree more than I originally thought we did...
D
dwight.stegall
This is very simple.
<a href="yoururl" target="anyunreservedword">LinkName</a>
Let's say your target is "bird". Use target="bird" in every link you
want to open in that targeted window and all of them will.
<a href="yoururl" target="anyunreservedword">LinkName</a>
Let's say your target is "bird". Use target="bird" in every link you
want to open in that targeted window and all of them will.
D
David Dorward
If you read the message you responded to again (on the subject of which -
you seem to have forgotten to quote any of it, this makes it rather
difficult to follow the thread) you'll note that it is not as simple as it
appears.
The OP was pretty specific in that he wanted the window to gain the focus
when the link was clicked, as the technique you proposed loads the page in
the window without giving any indicate to the user that it is doing so.