Linux Journal Survey

Discussion in 'Python' started by dwblas@gmail.com, Jan 24, 2008.

  1. Guest

    , Jan 24, 2008
    #1
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  2. On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101


    ....

    18. What is your favorite programming language?

    (15 choices, Python not included)


    19. What is your favorite scripting language?

    o Python

    o Perl

    (5 more choices)


    Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    pass.

    George
    George Sakkis, Jan 24, 2008
    #2
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  3. Ben Finney Guest

    Terminology: "script" versus "program" (was: Linux Journal Survey)

    George Sakkis <> writes:

    > On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    > > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users
    > > who want to vote for Python.
    > > http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >
    > ...
    > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    > (15 choices, Python not included)
    >
    > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    > o Python
    > o Perl
    > (5 more choices)
    >
    > Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this
    > means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs).
    > Sorry, I'll pass.


    I agree entirely.

    The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
    program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
    simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
    scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which
    becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support
    for much else.

    In contrast, the term "program" (and hence "programming language")
    implies support for a much broader set of practices and solutions.

    This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers,
    unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used
    in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed.

    --
    \ "Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the |
    `\ frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, |
    _o__) it is no longer so." -- Voltaire, _Dictionnaire Philosophique_ |
    Ben Finney
    Ben Finney, Jan 24, 2008
    #3
  4. Paddy Guest

    Re: Terminology: "script" versus "program" (was: Linux JournalSurvey)

    On 24 Jan, 04:59, Ben Finney <>
    wrote:
    > George Sakkis <> writes:
    > > On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    > > > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users
    > > > who want to vote for Python.
    > > >http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >
    > > ...
    > > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    > > (15 choices, Python not included)

    >
    > > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    > > o Python
    > > o Perl
    > > (5 more choices)

    >
    > > Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this
    > > means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs).
    > > Sorry, I'll pass.

    >
    > I agree entirely.
    >
    > The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
    > program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
    > simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
    > scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which
    > becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support
    > for much else.
    >
    > In contrast, the term "program" (and hence "programming language")
    > implies support for a much broader set of practices and solutions.
    >
    > This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers,
    > unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used
    > in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed.
    >
    > --
    > \ "Money is always to be found when men are to be sent to the |
    > `\ frontiers to be destroyed: when the object is to preserve them, |
    > _o__) it is no longer so." -- Voltaire, _Dictionnaire Philosophique_ |
    > Ben Finney


    Hi George, Ben,
    In the past I have taken the high ground by arguing that the usual
    tasks associated with scripting are very important and that languages
    like Python/Ruby can script as well as write substantial programs in
    the non-scripting sense. Therefore, if their language of choice does
    not encompass scripting then it is a lesser language.
    'They' may look down on scripting but a lot of that is a mixture of
    ignorance and envy :)

    - Paddy.
    Paddy, Jan 24, 2008
    #4
  5. samwyse Guest

    Re: Terminology: "script" versus "program"

    Ben Finney wrote:
    > George Sakkis <> writes:
    >
    >
    >>On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >>
    >>>The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users
    >>>who want to vote for Python.
    >>>http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >>
    >>...
    >>18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >>(15 choices, Python not included)
    >>
    >>19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >>o Python
    >>o Perl
    >>(5 more choices)
    >>
    >>Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this
    >>means, other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs).
    >>Sorry, I'll pass.

    >
    >
    > I agree entirely.
    >
    > The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
    > program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
    > simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
    > scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which
    > becomes a denigration because such a language need not have support
    > for much else.


    I strongly disagree with your interpretation. Scritping languages
    provide high-level facilites for process control. Historically, they
    were purely interpretive but now they tend to compile to some sort of
    byte code. Examples include the various shells, Rexx, and various
    languages whose names start with "P". Languages which only express a
    "series of steps" are generally called batch languages. I've never
    heard anyone refer to a .BAT file as a script.

    In scripting languages, speed of execution is often less important than
    speed of implementation. When speed of execution is important, it is
    easier to invoke an external module than to patch or rewrite the
    interpreter. In Python, PERL and BASH, these modules can be dynamically
    linked libraries as well as stand-alone executables.

    Finally, the provided process control facilities are often generalized
    into quite powerful support for "programming in the large", especially
    both object-oriented and functional programming. This leads to supprot
    for a much broader set of practices and solutions than any mere
    programming language can easily provide.

    The only drawback I've ever found to this is that it's easy to
    accidentally use huge amounts of memory, for instance by 'slurping'
    files into memory in a single command.

    > This term seems quite prevalent among the Python core developers,
    > unfortunately. The 'distutils' module even has the term 'script' used
    > in its interface, to refer to the programs that are to be distributed.


    Apparently the core developers agree with my interpretation, not yours.
    samwyse, Jan 24, 2008
    #5
  6. Russ P. Guest

    On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    > On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >
    > > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    > > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >
    > ...
    >
    > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >
    > (15 choices, Python not included)
    >
    > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >
    > o Python
    >
    > o Perl
    >
    > (5 more choices)
    >
    > Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    > other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    > pass.
    >
    > George



    Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python
    "script" as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes,
    whereas a full-blown "program" has functions and classes. Both have
    their place.

    I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python
    as a "scripting language." I suspect they did that because Python is
    not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing.
    Russ P., Jan 24, 2008
    #6
  7. Paul Boddie Guest

    On 24 Jan, 04:42, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    > On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >
    > > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    > > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >
    > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >
    > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?


    20. "What is your favourite colour?" ;-)

    > Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    > other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    > pass.


    Well, LJ isn't my chosen reading material any more, but a "write-in
    vote" sends the appropriate message in this case. I anticipate the
    usual "C/C++ is the favourite programming language on Linux" routine
    when the results get published but, as I wrote, LJ passed the point of
    no subscription some time ago.

    Paul
    Paul Boddie, Jan 24, 2008
    #7
  8. Tim Chase Guest

    >> want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101
    >
    > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >
    > (15 choices, Python not included)


    I'm not sure why some folks have their knickers in a knot...I
    took the survey and there was an "Other" box, so I just wrote in
    "Python" for my favorite programming language.

    I mean, Basic, Lisp, and Prolog make it in there...I use Python
    for programming a heckuva lot more than I use any of the others.

    > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >
    > o Python


    and answered Python for this question too.

    -tkc
    Tim Chase, Jan 24, 2008
    #8
  9. Re: Terminology: "script" versus "program"

    On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:22:04 +0000, samwyse wrote:

    >> The term "script" has the strong connotation of a limited-purpose
    >> program designed to solve a problem expressed almost entirely as a
    >> simple series of steps. Languages that are often used to write such
    >> scripts are usually referred to as "scripting languages", which becomes
    >> a denigration because such a language need not have support for much
    >> else.

    >
    > I strongly disagree with your interpretation. Scritping languages
    > provide high-level facilites for process control. Historically, they
    > were purely interpretive but now they tend to compile to some sort of
    > byte code. Examples include the various shells, Rexx, and various
    > languages whose names start with "P".


    Do you have a source for your claim that the shells (e.g. Linux/Unix
    shells bash, ksh, zsh, etc. or Windows shells cmd.exe, command.com) are
    compiled to byte code? I don't believe this is the case, I understand
    that they are typically "immediate interpreted" languages, that is, each
    line in interpreted from source code immediately before being executed,
    as often as it takes.

    Note to purists: yes, I know that being interpreted or compiled is a
    property of the implementation, not the language. But when all the
    implementations of a language (where "all" might mean "the only one"), I
    think it is reasonable to blur the lines.


    > Languages which only express a
    > "series of steps" are generally called batch languages.


    Maybe in the Windows/DOS world, but not typically in the Linux/Unix
    world, where they are called scripting languages.


    > I've never
    > heard anyone refer to a .BAT file as a script.


    Linux/Unix/Mac admins may be excused for saying that they've never come
    across a .BAT file at all.

    $ locate .bat | wc -l
    14

    Oh well, what do you know! I've got fourteen of the beggars. Hmmm... two
    are in the Python standard lib, two are in wxPython, six seem to be in
    the game Abuse, a couple of false positives, and a few odd files.

    $ locate .sh | wc -l
    606



    --
    Steven
    Steven D'Aprano, Jan 25, 2008
    #9
  10. Re: Terminology: "script" versus "program"

    On Fri, 25 Jan 2008 00:58:14 -0000, Steven D'Aprano
    <> declaimed the following in
    comp.lang.python:

    > On Thu, 24 Jan 2008 12:22:04 +0000, samwyse wrote:
    >

    <snip>
    >
    > > Languages which only express a
    > > "series of steps" are generally called batch languages.

    >
    > Maybe in the Windows/DOS world, but not typically in the Linux/Unix
    > world, where they are called scripting languages.
    >


    In my background, they were "job control languages" (and the TRS-80,
    running under L(S)-DOS even had a two-level job control language: if
    simple in-line substitution it was direct "inject command to command
    interpreter" form; but it also had the ability for complex stuff (those
    with conditionals or loops) to be "compiled" -- in processing the
    conditional/loop logic to generate a pure "in-line" control file which
    was then executed).

    And the only language I've encountered that I truly considered a
    "scripting" language was the Amiga implementation of REXX (and, barely,
    the original IBM version since it could address the standard IBM
    editor), as ARexx could "address" any application that opened a named
    ARexx port (Regina and OoRexx seem to be restricted to only addressing a
    command shell with environment variable translation, or a command shell
    without such -- that is spawn a program by itself, or spawn a program
    through a console interpreter). And any statement that is not a Rexx
    statement (easiest done by quoting it to a string) is automatically
    passed to the "current" "address"

    address WORDPROCESSOR
    'top'
    'select'
    'end'
    'cut'
    text = RESULT
    address MAILCLIENT
    'newmail "Current Text"'
    'paste' RESULT

    {totally fictitious example, but it gets the point across}
    --
    Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG

    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
    (Bestiaria Support Staff: )
    HTTP://www.bestiaria.com/
    Dennis Lee Bieber, Jan 25, 2008
    #10
  11. Paul McNett Guest

    Re: Terminology: "script" versus "program"

    Steven D'Aprano wrote:

    > Linux/Unix/Mac admins may be excused for saying that they've never come
    > across a .BAT file at all.
    >
    > $ locate .bat | wc -l
    > 14



    > $ locate .sh | wc -l
    > 606



    $ locate .bat | wc -l
    115
    $ locate .sh | wc -l
    763
    $ locate .py | wc -l
    44030

    Hmmm... that matched all the .pyo and .pyc files, too. Not fair.

    $ locate -r '\.py$' | wc -l
    17425
    $ locate -r '\.sh$' | wc -l
    278
    $ locate -r '\.bat$' | wc -l
    49

    Still a bit unbelievable, although I do have all the branches and tags
    checked out of my main projects, and I tend to make lots of little .py
    files so most of that 17,425 number is probably me.

    Paul

    --
    http://paulmcnett.com
    Paul McNett, Jan 25, 2008
    #11
  12. In article <>,
    Russ P. <> wrote:
    >On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    >> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >>
    >> > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    >> > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >>
    >> ...
    >>
    >> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >>
    >> (15 choices, Python not included)
    >>
    >> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >>
    >> o Python
    >>
    >> o Perl
    >>
    >> (5 more choices)
    >>
    >> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    >> other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    >> pass.
    >>
    >> George

    >
    >
    >Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python
    >"script" as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes,
    >whereas a full-blown "program" has functions and classes. Both have
    >their place.
    >
    >I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python
    >as a "scripting language." I suspect they did that because Python is
    >not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing.


    In the context of linux a programming language is
    a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored
    in a /.../bin/ directory.
    A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally
    distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call
    such a program a script. If the first two characters is "#!"
    and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense.

    So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical
    distinction, and I'm sure they didn't mean offence.

    Groetjes Albert

    --
    --
    Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
    Economic growth -- like all pyramid schemes -- ultimately falters.
    albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
    Albert van der Horst, Feb 2, 2008
    #12
  13. Steve Holden Guest

    Albert van der Horst wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Russ P. <> wrote:
    >> On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    >>> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    >>>> want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101
    >>> ...
    >>>
    >>> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >>>
    >>> (15 choices, Python not included)
    >>>
    >>> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >>>
    >>> o Python
    >>>
    >>> o Perl
    >>>
    >>> (5 more choices)
    >>>
    >>> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    >>> other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    >>> pass.
    >>>
    >>> George

    >>
    >> Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python
    >> "script" as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes,
    >> whereas a full-blown "program" has functions and classes. Both have
    >> their place.
    >>
    >> I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python
    >> as a "scripting language." I suspect they did that because Python is
    >> not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing.

    >
    > In the context of linux a programming language is
    > a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored
    > in a /.../bin/ directory.
    > A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally
    > distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call
    > such a program a script. If the first two characters is "#!"
    > and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense.
    >
    > So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical
    > distinction, and I'm sure they didn't mean offence.
    >

    What you describe as a scripting language is normally referred to as a
    "interpreted language". Of course with the introduction of virtual
    machines we can no longer talk about "compiled languages" unambiguously.
    Compiling used to mean "compiling to machine code", but alas no longer.

    "Scripting language" has always had a fairly nebulous meaning.

    regards
    Steve
    --
    Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119
    Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/
    Steve Holden, Feb 2, 2008
    #13
  14. Carl Banks Guest

    On Feb 2, 12:03 pm, Albert van der Horst <4all.nl>
    wrote:
    > In article <>,
    >
    >
    >
    > Russ P. <> wrote:
    > >On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    > >> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:

    >
    > >> > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    > >> > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >
    > >> ...

    >
    > >> 18. What is your favorite programming language?

    >
    > >> (15 choices, Python not included)

    >
    > >> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?

    >
    > >> o Python

    >
    > >> o Perl

    >
    > >> (5 more choices)

    >
    > >> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    > >> other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    > >> pass.

    >
    > >> George

    >
    > >Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python
    > >"script" as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes,
    > >whereas a full-blown "program" has functions and classes. Both have
    > >their place.

    >
    > >I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python
    > >as a "scripting language." I suspect they did that because Python is
    > >not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing.

    >
    > In the context of linux a programming language is
    > a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored
    > in a /.../bin/ directory.
    > A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally
    > distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call
    > such a program a script. If the first two characters is "#!"
    > and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense.
    >
    > So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical
    > distinction, and I'm sure they didn't mean offence.



    Java doesn't compile to ELF binaries, last time I checked.


    Carl Banks
    Carl Banks, Feb 2, 2008
    #14
  15. Paul Boddie Guest

    On 3 Feb, 00:45, Carl Banks <> wrote:
    >
    > Java doesn't compile to ELF binaries, last time I checked.


    http://gcc.gnu.org/java/

    Paul
    Paul Boddie, Feb 3, 2008
    #15
  16. Kay Schluehr Guest

    On Jan 24, 4:42 am, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    > On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >
    > > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    > > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101

    >
    > ...
    >
    > 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >
    > (15 choices, Python not included)
    >
    > 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >
    > o Python
    >
    > o Perl
    >
    > (5 more choices)
    >
    > Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    > other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    > pass.
    >
    > George


    There is an optional field "other language" where you can insert
    "Python" as well.
    Kay Schluehr, Feb 3, 2008
    #16
  17. Albert van der Horst <4all.nl> wrote:

    > In article <>,
    > Russ P. <> wrote:
    >>On Jan 23, 7:42 pm, George Sakkis <> wrote:
    >>> On Jan 23, 8:14 pm, wrote:
    >>>
    >>> > The annual Linux Journal survey is online now for any Linux users who
    >>> > want to vote for Python. http://www.linuxjournal.com/node/1006101
    >>>
    >>> ...
    >>>
    >>> 18. What is your favorite programming language?
    >>>
    >>> (15 choices, Python not included)
    >>>
    >>> 19. What is your favorite scripting language?
    >>>
    >>> o Python
    >>>
    >>> o Perl
    >>>
    >>> (5 more choices)
    >>>
    >>> Python is much more than a "scripting language" (whatever this means,
    >>> other than a semi-derogatory term used by clueless PHBs). Sorry, I'll
    >>> pass.
    >>>
    >>> George

    >>
    >>
    >>Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think of a Python
    >>"script" as a flat source file with no (or few) functions or classes,
    >>whereas a full-blown "program" has functions and classes. Both have
    >>their place.
    >>
    >>I agree it is unfortunate that the Linux World poll classified Python
    >>as a "scripting language." I suspect they did that because Python is
    >>not (typically) compiled and does not have static typing.

    >
    > In the context of linux a programming language is
    > a language that generates an ELF binary executable to be stored
    > in a /.../bin/ directory.
    > A scripting language is a language whose programs are normally
    > distributed in human-readable form. It is appropriate to call


    So a scripting language is a language that is usually used for Open
    Source software while a programming language is usually used for
    ClosedSource software?

    What kind of language has C been in the good old days when gcc
    produced aout binaries instead of ELF?

    > such a program a script. If the first two characters is "#!"
    > and the execution bit is set, it is a script in the linux sense.


    Thanks to the binfmt_misc kernel module you can execute python byte
    code just like you execute native code:

    diesch@vogon:~% bin/hello
    Hello world!
    diesch@vogon:~% file bin/hello
    bin/hello: python 2.5 byte-compiled
    diesch@vogon:~% head -n1 bin/hello
    ³ò

    > So as far as I can tell it boils down to a clear technical
    > distinction


    IMHO it's neither a clear nor a useful one.


    Florian
    --
    <http://www.florian-diesch.de/>
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    ** Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature, please! **
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Florian Diesch, Feb 4, 2008
    #17
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