Live editing...

Discussion in 'Python' started by kirby.urner@gmail.com, Jul 31, 2007.

  1. Guest

    There's been some chatter on edu-sig (python.org) of late regarding
    Python's
    capabilities in the "edit/continue" tradition, meaning debugging
    tools, and/or
    IDE tools, that give the developer real time write access to running
    programs.

    I think a good design would be something like the ZODB, or the ZODB
    itself,
    to save the entire working environment, like a Smalltalk image, at
    which point
    a "supervisor Python" (a whole different instance, perhaps on another
    chip),
    could do "brain surgery" on the "hibernating Python" (like a patient
    undergoing
    surgery).

    You basically simulate or emulate the "operating table" version,
    without putting
    yourself at its mercy. If you break it completely, while doing your
    brain surgery,
    just abort the instance and roll back to the previously saved
    version. It's like
    sitting on top of a version control system, while never getting to
    directly edit the
    currently operating version (the supervisor).

    The alternative, allowing a developer to undermine his/her own running
    platform,
    seems to unnecessarily conflate a runtime and design time mode, which
    isn't
    just some stupid prejudice.

    We need that separation, just as we keep distance between production
    and
    development copies of things.

    Don't fix a running engine if you can fix an emulated running engine.
    Once you're
    happy with your changes, commit, and set it running for real. It
    still might crash,
    which is why you're glad for rollback capabilities.

    Smalltalk images meet CVS?

    Python atop Mercurial?

    Kirby
     
    , Jul 31, 2007
    #1
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  2. Ben Finney Guest

    [OT] Google message munging (was: Live editing...)

    This is unrelated to the topic of the original poster, and is
    unrelated to Python; hence the off-topic marker. I'm also not saying
    anything targeted at the original poster, but rather using this
    message as an opportunity to ask a question.

    "" <> writes:

    > There's been some chatter on edu-sig (python.org) of late regarding
    > Python's
    > capabilities in the "edit/continue" tradition, meaning debugging
    > tools, and/or
    > IDE tools, that give the developer real time write access to running
    > programs.
    >
    > [... more lines of broken line wrapping...]


    What the blazes is Google doing with messages that such a high
    proportion of them come through in this painful-to-read double-wrapped
    format? I'm referring to the fact that the lines appear to have been
    wrapped at one length, and then each line broken again into a long and
    a short line.

    These are so awkward to read that I usually skip straight past them
    without attempting to parse them, which isn't a benefit to anybody
    (leaving aside snide remarks about the potential of negative value
    from my contributions).

    Is it some setting that users are enabling, or is it the default
    behaviour?

    More importantly, whom do we beat with the clue-by-four to make it
    stop?

    --
    \ "For of those to whom much is given, much is required." -- |
    `\ John F. Kennedy |
    _o__) |
    Ben Finney
     
    Ben Finney, Aug 1, 2007
    #2
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  3. Paul Rubin Guest

    Re: [OT] Google message munging (was: Live editing...)

    Ben Finney <> writes:
    > > [... more lines of broken line wrapping...]

    > What the blazes is Google doing with messages that such a high
    > proportion of them come through in this painful-to-read double-wrapped
    > format? I'm referring to the fact that the lines appear to have been
    > wrapped at one length, and then each line broken again into a long and
    > a short line.


    Users write in a text editor formatting the text into lines of
    reasonable size, separated by newline characters. They then paste the
    text into a web form, which reformats it with slightly shorter lines
    (breaking up the user's longer lines) but leaves the user's newlines
    in place.
     
    Paul Rubin, Aug 1, 2007
    #3
  4. Guest

    Re: Google message munging (was: Live editing...)


    > What the blazes is Google doing with messages that such a high
    > proportion of them come through in this painful-to-read double-wrapped
    > format? I'm referring to the fact that the lines appear to have been
    > wrapped at one length, and then each line broken again into a long and
    > a short line.
    >


    I entirely agree with Ben Finney's remarks. Painful for
    an author to see a post mangled that way too, writers
    being also readers.

    Back to the original thread (sort of): I think the deeper
    issue is the relationship between "shell" (REPL),
    "debugger" (per WingIDE 101 for example) and "runtime"
    ala Python just crunching through a .py file.

    The OLPC people are pushing for exotic "live debugging"
    and think Python is deficient in this regard, not as a
    language so much as an environment (which Guido need take
    no responsibility for, though he often has and does).

    My tossing out of some ZODB-based solutions was mostly
    just an ice-breaker. I don't mind that it ended up
    prompting discussions of formatting.

    Anyway, back to thinking about iterator types:
    http://mail.python.org/pipermail/edu-sig/2007-August/008168.html
    ( python.next() might trigger a fork/jump to a next "live"
    interpreter, leaving behind "snake skin" or "ghost" interpreter
    available for "live" interventions? ).

    Kirby
     
    , Aug 5, 2007
    #4
  5. Guest

    Re: Google message munging (was: Live editing...)

    On Jul 31, 10:38?pm, Paul Rubin <http://> wrote:
    > Ben Finney <> writes:
    > > > [... more lines of broken line wrapping...]

    > > What the blazes is Google doing with messages that such a high
    > > proportion of them come through in this painful-to-read double-wrapped
    > > format? I'm referring to the fact that the lines appear to have been
    > > wrapped at one length, and then each line broken again into a long and
    > > a short line.

    >
    > Users write in a text editor formatting the text into lines of
    > reasonable size, separated by newline characters. They then paste the
    > text into a web form, which reformats it with slightly shorter lines
    > (breaking up the user's longer lines) but leaves the user's newlines
    > in place.


    Google used to provide a preview before actual posting,
    but that is no longer available, so there's nothing the
    poster can do about it.
     
    , Aug 5, 2007
    #5
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