Logic

Discussion in 'Java' started by John Bailo, Dec 31, 2005.

  1. John Bailo

    John Bailo Guest

    If I code my app in c#, I can port it to mono and use it in Linux.

    If I code my app in java, I can use it in Linux or windows.

    If I use Windows to code my app in c#, and use VS.NET, it costs money but is
    efficient.

    If I use Linux or Windows to code my app in java, and use Eclipse, it
    doesn't cost money, but is less efficient.

    If I code my app in mono, I can develop in Linux and port it to Windows.

    If I use web services, I can write my client app in java or c# and use it in
    Linux and Windows.

    If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in c# then I can run it on a
    Windows CE device using CF and port it to mono and run it on a Linux PDA.

    If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in java, then I can run it on
    PalmOS, WindowsCE, Symbian or Linux using the J2EE mobile.


    How should I code my app?
    John Bailo, Dec 31, 2005
    #1
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  2. Fallacy #1: Coding in Windows is not limited to VS.NET. You can always a
    text editor, thus removing the cost for VS. Additionally, the new Express
    products are available and are free until November.
    --
    Christopher A. Reed
    "The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

    "John Bailo" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > If I code my app in c#, I can port it to mono and use it in Linux.
    >
    > If I code my app in java, I can use it in Linux or windows.
    >
    > If I use Windows to code my app in c#, and use VS.NET, it costs money but
    > is
    > efficient.
    >
    > If I use Linux or Windows to code my app in java, and use Eclipse, it
    > doesn't cost money, but is less efficient.
    >
    > If I code my app in mono, I can develop in Linux and port it to Windows.
    >
    > If I use web services, I can write my client app in java or c# and use it
    > in
    > Linux and Windows.
    >
    > If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in c# then I can run it on a
    > Windows CE device using CF and port it to mono and run it on a Linux PDA.
    >
    > If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in java, then I can run it on
    > PalmOS, WindowsCE, Symbian or Linux using the J2EE mobile.
    >
    >
    > How should I code my app?
    Christopher Reed, Jan 1, 2006
    #2
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  3. Christopher Reed wrote:
    > Fallacy #1: Coding in Windows is not limited to VS.NET. You can always a
    > text editor, thus removing the cost for VS.


    Text editors are not an option for a really efficient programmer.

    > Additionally, the new Express
    > products are available and are free until November.


    There is also #develop from the ICSharp people.

    But that's not a real choice, since, as I read it, VS.NET 2005 and NET
    2.0 are not upgrades to 2003 and 1.1 -- but almost completely different
    products.

    For example, generics.

    For another example, the ability to write to SQL Server 2005 -- which
    now supports mixed SQL/c# code for stored procedures...and has native
    XML datatypes.




    > "John Bailo" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> >
    >> > If I code my app in c#, I can port it to mono and use it in Linux.
    >> >
    >> > If I code my app in java, I can use it in Linux or windows.
    >> >
    >> > If I use Windows to code my app in c#, and use VS.NET, it costs money but
    >> > is
    >> > efficient.
    >> >
    >> > If I use Linux or Windows to code my app in java, and use Eclipse, it
    >> > doesn't cost money, but is less efficient.
    >> >
    >> > If I code my app in mono, I can develop in Linux and port it to Windows.
    >> >
    >> > If I use web services, I can write my client app in java or c# and use it
    >> > in
    >> > Linux and Windows.
    >> >
    >> > If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in c# then I can run it on a
    >> > Windows CE device using CF and port it to mono and run it on a Linux PDA.
    >> >
    >> > If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in java, then I can run it on
    >> > PalmOS, WindowsCE, Symbian or Linux using the J2EE mobile.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > How should I code my app?
    John A. Bailo, Jan 1, 2006
    #3
  4. John Bailo

    Patrick May Guest

    "John A. Bailo" <> writes:
    > Text editors are not an option for a really efficient programmer.


    If, by "efficient", you mean "able to generate large amounts of
    code", you may be right. If you mean "able to solve the problem
    quickly and correctly", the most efficient programmers I know
    personally use either vi or Emacs.

    Regards,

    Patrick

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    S P Engineering, Inc. | The experts in large scale distributed OO
    | systems design and implementation.
    | (C++, Java, Common Lisp, Jini, CORBA, UML)
    Patrick May, Jan 1, 2006
    #4
  5. John Bailo

    Lloyd Dupont Guest

    Yep, you could even use L1n0x stuff such as GTk, or gcc, or bash (thanks to
    MinGW & Cygwin), or Java of course.
    In that case your productivity drop to multiplatform linux level, of course.
    But that's to be expected.
    However after that you could proudly say, look at my Multiplatform Message
    box with 3 buttons!
    I just have to run install Migw, install MinGW,
    ../configure --instal=/program\ files, make all install and it compiles and
    run on all platform!
    It tooks me only 256 lines of C code! and 56 line of makefile! (and 436
    lines of configure.ac) to code that!

    "Christopher Reed" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > Fallacy #1: Coding in Windows is not limited to VS.NET. You can always a
    > text editor, thus removing the cost for VS. Additionally, the new Express
    > products are available and are free until November.
    > --
    > Christopher A. Reed
    > "The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."
    >
    > "John Bailo" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> If I code my app in c#, I can port it to mono and use it in Linux.
    >>
    >> If I code my app in java, I can use it in Linux or windows.
    >>
    >> If I use Windows to code my app in c#, and use VS.NET, it costs money but
    >> is
    >> efficient.
    >>
    >> If I use Linux or Windows to code my app in java, and use Eclipse, it
    >> doesn't cost money, but is less efficient.
    >>
    >> If I code my app in mono, I can develop in Linux and port it to Windows.
    >>
    >> If I use web services, I can write my client app in java or c# and use it
    >> in
    >> Linux and Windows.
    >>
    >> If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in c# then I can run it on a
    >> Windows CE device using CF and port it to mono and run it on a Linux PDA.
    >>
    >> If I want my app to run on a PDA and code it in java, then I can run it
    >> on
    >> PalmOS, WindowsCE, Symbian or Linux using the J2EE mobile.
    >>
    >>
    >> How should I code my app?

    >
    >
    Lloyd Dupont, Jan 1, 2006
    #5
  6. "Christopher Reed" <> wrote in message
    news:%...
    > Fallacy #1: Coding in Windows is not limited to VS.NET. You can always a
    > text editor, thus removing the cost for VS.


    If you're coding vanilla applications, that's true. If you're creating,
    say, web services and clients, VS.NET's magic generation is a big part of
    the development process. Trying to get all the coding conventions correct
    relying only on the documentation would not be easy. Nor would doing
    without a debugger, of course.
    Mike Schilling, Jan 1, 2006
    #6
  7. "Mike Schilling" <> wrote in message
    news:mfUtf.50600$...
    >
    > "Christopher Reed" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> Fallacy #1: Coding in Windows is not limited to VS.NET. You can always a
    >> text editor, thus removing the cost for VS.

    >
    > If you're coding vanilla applications, that's true. If you're creating,
    > say, web services and clients, VS.NET's magic generation is a big part of
    > the development process. Trying to get all the coding conventions correct
    > relying only on the documentation would not be easy. Nor would doing
    > without a debugger, of course.
    >
    Christopher Reed, Jan 2, 2006
    #7
  8. First of all, I started programming back when there wasn't such a thing as
    an IDE. Text editors was all there was and in many platforms, there still
    are.

    Secondly, if you've ever used Brief, you would know that you could "create"
    without an IDE.

    As for .NET, I've been programming .NET for the past four years without VS
    because I felt more comfortable in the text editor. I have written web
    services, remoting servers and clients, and web apps using just a text
    editor. Granted, on occasion, I have used the IDE to get the gist of what I
    needed to do, but with respect to VS .NET 2002/2003, my code is better
    structured and much easier to read than what would be produced by these
    IDEs.

    As for using the MSDN SDK documentation, it has been great. There are some
    instances where I needed more information, so I would search the web.
    Otherwise, I would use the good old trial and error method.

    As for debugging, there is the DbgClr debugger that comes with the SDK.
    Maybe not as fancy as the VS debugger, but it's not bad for the price --
    free.

    As for "coding vanilla applications", I probably can program circles around
    many a newbie because I'm not a point and click jockey but a real
    programmer. Can an application be created faster in an IDE? Yes. Is it
    more efficient? Not necessarily.

    By the way, I have been using VWD Express since it came out and I think it's
    great. Personally, the new VS 2005 IDEs are by far the best ones Microsoft
    has produced in Windows. And as I had stated previously, but you did not
    capture below, the Express products are free until November.
    --
    Christopher A. Reed
    "The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

    "Mike Schilling" <> wrote in message
    news:mfUtf.50600$...
    >
    > "Christopher Reed" <> wrote in message
    > news:%...
    >> Fallacy #1: Coding in Windows is not limited to VS.NET. You can always a
    >> text editor, thus removing the cost for VS.

    >
    > If you're coding vanilla applications, that's true. If you're creating,
    > say, web services and clients, VS.NET's magic generation is a big part of
    > the development process. Trying to get all the coding conventions correct
    > relying only on the documentation would not be easy. Nor would doing
    > without a debugger, of course.
    >
    Christopher Reed, Jan 2, 2006
    #8
  9. Lloyd Dupont wrote:
    > Yep, you could even use L1n0x stuff such as GTk, or gcc, or bash (thanks to
    > MinGW & Cygwin), or Java of course.
    > In that case your productivity drop to multiplatform linux level, of course.
    > But that's to be expected.
    > However after that you could proudly say, look at my Multiplatform Message
    > box with 3 buttons!
    > I just have to run install Migw, install MinGW,
    > ./configure --instal=/program\ files, make all install and it compiles and
    > run on all platform!
    > It tooks me only 256 lines of C code! and 56 line of makefile! (and 436
    > lines of configure.ac) to code that!
    >


    Sounds like you don't like Linux. If the OP doesn't have to worry about
    releasing his code to the public he can make a binary release and forego
    the issues of making a Make file and a configure.ac and your argument
    would therefore be thrown out the door.
    Brandon McCombs, Jan 3, 2006
    #9
  10. John Bailo

    Lloyd Dupont Guest

    > Sounds like you don't like Linux. If the OP doesn't have to worry about
    > releasing his code to the public he can make a binary release and forego
    > the issues of making a Make file and a configure.ac and your argument
    > would therefore be thrown out the door.


    Not at all.
    I'm "criticizing" the development process. The result are just as good
    whatever tools you use.
    It's just not very productive to do FreeBSD developement (or worst,
    multiplatform developement) at the time I was trying hard to do.

    ..NET came such as such a relief, reliable, single, simple and consisten API
    to do everything.
    Yep was there before but,somehow, not completely satisfactory...
    Lloyd Dupont, Jan 3, 2006
    #10
  11. John Bailo

    Chris Smith Guest

    Lloyd Dupont <net.galador@ld> wrote:
    > Not at all.
    > I'm "criticizing" the development process. The result are just as good
    > whatever tools you use.


    That's only true, of course, in an idealized environment in which
    there's never a rush to release anything. In reality, productivity and
    code quality are inextricably intertwined with each other.

    Different developers are more productive with different tools... but
    there are certain tools available in modern development environments
    that I think are too valuable to dismiss... things like language-aware
    refactoring tools. I find that without these tools available, code
    quality does suffer because it changes the whole picture from a change
    being tedious or even dangerous to being perfectly safe and taking less
    than a second.

    > It's just not very productive to do FreeBSD developement (or worst,
    > multiplatform developement) at the time I was trying hard to do.


    Multiplatform UNIX development in C can indeed be something of a bear,
    if you're trying to do something that goes beyond the standard C API and
    using POSIX/libc functions to do it. This is made worse by the culture
    that dictates that it shouldn't matter which C compiler you use (hence
    autoconf and friends... which are actually nice, but you have to know
    enough to know when to use them). It requires a very high level of
    experience and fluency in the API and the many potential portability
    issues that arise. Few people have that kind of knowledge available to
    them.

    IME, most serious real-world application-level development, except for
    open-source stuff anyway, is done using C++ rather than C, and
    frameworks like ACE or the like that remove those problems. And Java,
    of course, which also provides nice portable APIs to do GUI development
    and basically anything else you've ever wanted to do, ever, plus about a
    gazillion things you didn't.

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
    Chris Smith, Jan 4, 2006
    #11
  12. John Bailo

    Chris Smith Guest

    Mike Schilling <> wrote:
    > If you're coding vanilla applications, that's true. If you're creating,
    > say, web services and clients, VS.NET's magic generation is a big part of
    > the development process.


    Well, wsdl.exe is part of the .NET SDK, of course. No need for Visual
    Studio just to use those tools.

    I don't know that I'd try to embark on a significant development project
    without Visual Studio. (I really don't know.) But I very often write
    and distribute small utilities and sample code to customers of MindIQ
    that interact with our web services from C# or "C++" and .NET; I do it
    from within Eclipse with a basic set of plugins I wrote in a weekend to
    hook up with the .NET SDK, and it works fine. No nice syntax
    highlighting or source code formatting or refactoring, of course.

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
    Chris Smith, Jan 4, 2006
    #12
  13. John Bailo

    Guest

    , Jan 9, 2006
    #13
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