Maintain FAQ

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by dhtml, Jun 30, 2011.

  1. dhtml

    dhtml Guest

    Hey,

    Nobody is maintaining the FAQ and it's gathering dust. It needs a new
    maintainer.

    The c.l.js FAQ might also be better off on a different host because
    Jim's server is so often down.
    --
    Garrett
    dhtml, Jun 30, 2011
    #1
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  2. dhtml wrote:

    > Nobody is maintaining the FAQ and it's gathering dust. It needs a new
    > maintainer.


    I am still willing, public opinion does not appear to have changed from
    March, and now that my regular studies are coming to an end (aside from the
    thesis), I think I can make the time. Have you received my e-mail of
    2011-03-13?

    > The c.l.js FAQ might also be better off on a different host because
    > Jim's server is so often down.


    ACK. I was already thinking about suggesting to Jim to move the FAQ to my
    site if and when I was appointed FAQ maintainer, as that would have made my
    task a lot easier (using SVN and stuff). One reason why I e-mailed you in
    March.


    PointedEars
    --
    realism: HTML 4.01 Strict
    evangelism: XHTML 1.0 Strict
    madness: XHTML 1.1 as application/xhtml+xml
    -- Bjoern Hoehrmann
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Jun 30, 2011
    #2
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  3. In comp.lang.javascript message <>,
    Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:25:00, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
    <> posted:
    >dhtml wrote:
    >
    >> Nobody is maintaining the FAQ and it's gathering dust. It needs a new
    >> maintainer.

    >
    >I am still willing, public opinion does not appear to have changed from
    >March, and now that my regular studies are coming to an end (aside from the
    >thesis), I think I can make the time. Have you received my e-mail of
    >2011-03-13?


    In that case we would need another FAQ not maintained by TL. To be
    effective, a FAQ maintainer must be a competent communicator. Mere
    knowledge is insufficient.


    Garrett : assuming that you still have FAQ-editing powers, I suggest
    that you add to it a note that it is not currently being updated.

    Let it also have a link to something called "Thomas's ECMAScript FAQ",
    on his site, where he can write to his heart's content.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, near London. *@merlyn.demon.co.uk/?.?
    Web <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, and links.
    Correct <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (RFC5536/7)
    Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (RFC5536/7)
    Dr J R Stockton, Jul 1, 2011
    #3
  4. dhtml

    dhtml Guest

    On Jul 1, 2:04 pm, Dr J R Stockton <>
    wrote:
    > In comp.lang.javascript message <>,
    > Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:25:00, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
    > <> posted:
    >
    > >dhtml wrote:

    >
    > >> Nobody is maintaining the FAQ and it's gathering dust. It needs a new
    > >> maintainer.

    >
    > >I am still willing, public opinion does not appear to have changed from
    > >March, and now that my regular studies are coming to an end (aside from the
    > >thesis), I think I can make the time.  Have you received my e-mail of
    > >2011-03-13?

    >
    > In that case we would need another FAQ not maintained by TL.  To be
    > effective, a FAQ maintainer must be a competent communicator.  Mere
    > knowledge is insufficient.
    >

    Knowledge in general is helpful. Technical knowledge EcmaScript,
    browsers, html, css, OOD is an important trait.

    Communication is an essential trait for the job.


    Communication includes FAQ editing which includes coherent, succinct
    writing as well as clean code.

    Communication also includes listening understanding, and seeing things
    from others' perspective.

    Listening entails providing feedback, e.g. "it sounds like you're
    saying [...]" or "did you mean [...]". In contrast, replies like
    "irrelevant" and "fallacy" and especially childish things like "score
    adjusted" hinder communication and decimate the quality of the group.
    Such things discourage brainstorming.

    > Garrett : assuming that you still have FAQ-editing powers, I suggest
    > that you add to it a note that it is not currently being updated.
    >

    Will do. Today, the weather is extraordinarily beautiful. Perhaps
    tonight or tomorrow.

    > Let it also have a link to something called "Thomas's ECMAScript FAQ",
    > on his site, where he can write to his heart's content.
    >

    Where will the FAQ will be hosted? By whom it will be maintained and
    by what process will the maintainer will be chosen? So far, it looks
    as if Lahn is the only candidate.

    I was pulling for Weiss, RobG, or Juriy. IMO, Lasse would also be a
    good maintainer, if he has time for it.
    --
    Garrett
    dhtml, Jul 2, 2011
    #4
  5. In comp.lang.javascript message <EZ6dnRdpG7Ebz5PTnZ2dnUVZ8iudnZ2d@gigane
    ws.com>, Sat, 2 Jul 2011 01:04:35, Stefan Weiss <>
    posted:

    >On 01/07/11 23:04, Dr J R Stockton wrote:
    >> In comp.lang.javascript message <>,
    >> Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:25:00, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
    >> <> posted:
    >>>dhtml wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Nobody is maintaining the FAQ and it's gathering dust. It needs a new
    >>>> maintainer.
    >>>
    >>>I am still willing, public opinion does not appear to have changed from
    >>>March, and now that my regular studies are coming to an end (aside from the
    >>>thesis), I think I can make the time. Have you received my e-mail of
    >>>2011-03-13?

    >>
    >> In that case we would need another FAQ not maintained by TL.

    >
    >We already have that.
    >
    >In fact what we have is an FAQ not maintained by anybody. If you think
    >that's how it should be, you can always download the current content and
    >preserve it.


    Well, if you search back in the group, you should see that I keep and
    offer a copy of the FAQ at <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/$clj-faq.htm>;
    it would have been useful if the FAQ itself had said so. You should
    also see that I have a copy, annotated with some older suggestions, at
    <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-faq-a.htm>, and some suggested larger
    improvements at <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-faq-u.htm>.

    ISTM that at least the final version from each maintainer should be
    preserved. I also possess a late Cornford (8.1 - 2005-11-05), a late
    Webb (9.91 - 2008-01-19), an earlier Smith (19, July 12, 2009), but no
    Ley (Wayback should have it).


    > I'd prefer a maintained FAQ. AFAIK, Thomas Lahn is the only
    >person who has offered to take over, and he says he has the
    >infrastructure to keep the FAQ online.


    >If nobody else steps forward, he should become the new maintainer.


    When I did a FAQ, I obtained a favourable vote of approval first.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk IE8 FF3 Op10 Sf5 Cr7
    news:comp.lang.javascript FAQ <http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html>.
    <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
    <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
    Dr J R Stockton, Jul 3, 2011
    #5
  6. dhtml

    Mike Duffy Guest

    Dr J R Stockton <> wrote in
    news::

    > In comp.lang.javascript message
    > <EZ6dnRdpG7Ebz5PTnZ2dnUVZ8iudnZ2d@gigane ws.com>, Sat, 2 Jul 2011
    > 01:04:35, Stefan Weiss <> posted:
    >
    >> ... Thomas Lahn is the only person who has offered to take over
    >> and he says he has the infrastructure to keep the FAQ online.

    >
    >>If nobody else steps forward, he should become the new maintainer.

    >
    > When I did a FAQ, I obtained a favourable vote of approval first.


    When someone wins a position by acclamation, there is no point in voting.


    --
    http://pages.videotron.ca/duffym/index.htm?c.l.j
    Mike Duffy, Jul 4, 2011
    #6
  7. dhtml

    Evertjan. Guest

    Dr J R Stockton wrote on 03 jul 2011 in comp.lang.javascript:

    > ISTM that at least the final version from each maintainer should be
    > preserved. I also possess a late Cornford (8.1 - 2005-11-05), a late
    > Webb (9.91 - 2008-01-19), an earlier Smith (19, July 12, 2009), but no
    > Ley (Wayback should have it).


    Perhaps posting the url would suffice:

    <http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jibbering.com/faq/>

    the first one of 198 captures being
    the version by Jim Ley on 6 Dec 2000 22:00:

    <http://web.archive.org/web/200012062202/http://jibbering.com/faq/>

    --
    Evertjan.
    The Netherlands.
    (Please change the x'es to dots in my emailaddress)
    Evertjan., Jul 4, 2011
    #7
  8. dhtml

    dhtml Guest

    On Jul 4, 1:41 pm, Stefan Weiss <> wrote:
    > On 03/07/11 20:39, Dr J R Stockton wrote:
    >
    > > In comp.lang.javascript message <EZ6dnRdpG7Ebz5PTnZ2dnUVZ8iudnZ2d@gigane
    > > ws.com>, Sat, 2 Jul 2011 01:04:35, Stefan Weiss <>
    > > posted:
    > >>If nobody else steps forward, he should become the new maintainer.

    >
    > > When I did a FAQ, I obtained a favourable vote of approval first.

    >
    > Are you volunteering for this one?
    >

    A Lahn/Stockton team would be interesting.
    --
    Garrett
    dhtml, Jul 5, 2011
    #8
  9. In comp.lang.javascript message <Xns9F186FD9C38DAeejj99@194.109.133.246>
    , Mon, 4 Jul 2011 08:59:33, Evertjan. <>
    posted:

    >Dr J R Stockton wrote on 03 jul 2011 in comp.lang.javascript:
    >
    >> ISTM that at least the final version from each maintainer should be
    >> preserved. I also possess a late Cornford (8.1 - 2005-11-05), a late
    >> Webb (9.91 - 2008-01-19), an earlier Smith (19, July 12, 2009), but no
    >> Ley (Wayback should have it).

    >
    >Perhaps posting the url would suffice:
    >
    ><http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.jibbering.com/faq/>
    >
    >the first one of 198 captures being
    >the version by Jim Ley on 6 Dec 2000 22:00:
    >
    ><http://web.archive.org/web/200012062202/http://jibbering.com/faq/>


    We should not rely on that, or any other, system to continue to exist.

    I have extracted what seems to be Jim Ley's last, comp.lang.javascript
    FAQ - 7.9 - 2003-06-30, removing from it Wayback's added script and
    making the links local again.

    The FAQ should contain that general URL, and the dates of the first
    archived version of each maintainer or the dates between which they were
    active.


    There is also the question of the FAQ Notes maintenance. Since they are
    not posted here, I consider them to have only the authority of their
    anonymous author.

    The maintainer should upload the FAQ to at least two independent Web
    sites.

    --
    (c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
    Web <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
    Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
    Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SonOfRFC1036)
    Dr J R Stockton, Jul 5, 2011
    #9
  10. 2011-07-02 2:04, Stefan Weiss wrote:

    > In fact what we have is an FAQ not maintained by anybody.


    That’s not uncommon on Usenet these days. And many groups have no FAQ.
    It seems that Usenet has been dying some years with little hope of real
    recovery. Comp.lang.javascript may survive longer than most other
    groups. But lack of FAQ maintenance may indicate that the group will
    inevitably die in a non-distant future. It may technically continue its
    existence but perhaps degrade to a noise-only group (there are surely
    symptoms of that).

    It’s better to die with some dignity, with a dusty (but useful) FAQ,
    rather than with a troll’s creation declared as a FAQ.

    > AFAIK, Thomas Lahn is the only
    > person who has offered to take over, and he says he has the
    > infrastructure to keep the FAQ online.
    > If nobody else steps forward, he should become the new maintainer.


    That’s absurd. You don’t nominate someone just because nobody else steps
    forward; there is no law that a group must have a FAQ, and a group
    should have a FAQ only if it reasonably well gives answers to frequently
    asked questions in a useful way.

    He needs to prove himself competent of maintaining a FAQ. Surely if he
    tried to help people, his postings would address the questions asked
    instead of pointless and often incorrect nitpicking and useless
    lectures. I don’t see how any FAQ would be improved on such a basis.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Jul 5, 2011
    #10
  11. dhtml

    RobG Guest

    On Jul 6, 6:13 am, "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:
    > 2011-07-02 2:04, Stefan Weiss wrote:

    [...]
    > >  AFAIK, Thomas Lahn is the only
    > > person who has offered to take over, and he says he has the
    > > infrastructure to keep the FAQ online.
    > > If nobody else steps forward, he should become the new maintainer.

    >
    > That’s absurd.


    I don't think so.

    > You don’t nominate someone just because nobody else steps
    > forward;


    I didn't see it as a nomination, but as a vote (as informal as that
    may be) for someone who has been nominated and is the only one to
    accept the nomination. He has my support, for what it's worth.


    > there is no law that a group must have a FAQ, and a group
    > should have a FAQ only if it reasonably well gives answers to frequently
    > asked questions in a useful way.


    Most of the questions to which the CLJ FAQ provides answers are now
    asked on stackoverflow[1]. If the FAQ was directed at questions asked
    frequently *here* it would be very short.


    > He needs to prove himself competent of maintaining a FAQ.


    I think he has.


    1. <URL: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/javascript >


    --
    Rob
    RobG, Jul 6, 2011
    #11
  12. dhtml

    Mike Duffy Guest

    dhtml <> wrote in
    news::

    > A Lahn/Stockton team would be interesting.


    I offer myself to do the translating for both of them into "standard" (US)
    english. As a resident of Quebec, I am linguistically uniquely-placed to be
    able to pull this off without offending anyone.

    Seriously, my level of competence in Javascript is probably the correct
    amount. It is low enough that I can remember asking the ill-informed
    questions we see here from beginners, and yet high enough that I can make
    my Ajax code work even though I cannot actually explain closures.

    Despite their differing philosophies, I have found both TL & Dr. S (& Jukka
    & Evertjan & Garrett & DM & Richard C. & RobG & many, many others!!) to be
    extrememly helpful to me over the years, either by response to one of my
    queries, or indirectly via their suffering of other fools.

    What I propose is to translate missives into a "dumbed-down" version
    understandable by someone who (like myself) has never actually read an
    entry-level Javascript reference, preferring instead to work things out on
    a "need to know" basis.

    --
    http://pages.videotron.ca/duffym/index.htm?c.l.j
    Mike Duffy, Jul 6, 2011
    #12
  13. dhtml

    Bwig Zomberi Guest

    dhtml wrote:
    > A Lahn/Stockton team would be interesting.


    It would be great!

    --
    Bwig Zomberi
    Bwig Zomberi, Jul 8, 2011
    #13
  14. dhtml

    RobG Guest


    > > In comp.lang.javascript message <>,
    > > Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:25:00, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
    > > <> posted:

    >
    > > >dhtml wrote:

    >
    > > >> Nobody is maintaining theFAQand it's gathering dust. It needs a new
    > > >>maintainer.

    >
    > > >I am still willing, public opinion does not appear to have changed from
    > > >March, and now that my regular studies are coming to an end (aside from the
    > > >thesis), I think I can make the time.  Have you received my e-mail of
    > > >2011-03-13?


    Only one person has volunteered to take over as FAQ maintainer. He has
    also volunteered to host it.

    The state of the current FAQ is irrelevant, it is mostly unreachable
    and can't be used reliably for reference.

    Please give the keys to Thomas. Without a maintained FAQ this new
    group is dead.


    --
    Rob
    RobG, Jul 19, 2011
    #14
  15. In comp.lang.javascript message <d11d6639-4f3e-4fb1-8bc4-e97c047237bb@f3
    9g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:35:28, RobG
    <> posted:

    >The state of the current FAQ is irrelevant, it is mostly unreachable
    >and can't be used reliably for reference.


    An exact search with Google for "Version 32.2, Updated 2010-10-08, by
    Garrett Smith" shows one result, the copy at jibbering.

    But Google also says "In order to show you the most relevant results, we
    have omitted some entries very similar to the 1 already displayed. If
    you like, you can repeat the search with the omitted results included.".

    If you do that, you are shown another result, which is an annotated
    version.

    And if you follow the link in sig line 3 and read the links part near
    the end, you can reach a copy of Version 32.2, by a route which Google
    does not follow.

    Is it known how many copies of the FAQ are read from jibbering (when
    working) per week? Can that be split into full copies fetched, and ones
    where the user finds that the jibbering one is unchanged so he can use a
    cached version, if that applies?

    --
    (c) John Stockton, nr London UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk IE8 FF3 Op10 Sf5 Cr7
    news:comp.lang.javascript FAQ <http://www.jibbering.com/faq/index.html>.
    <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/js-index.htm> jscr maths, dates, sources.
    <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> TP/BP/Delphi/jscr/&c, FAQ items, links.
    Dr J R Stockton, Jul 20, 2011
    #15
  16. dhtml

    RobG Guest

    On Jul 21, 4:54 am, Dr J R Stockton <>
    wrote:
    > In comp.lang.javascript message <d11d6639-4f3e-4fb1-8bc4-e97c047237bb@f3
    > 9g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:35:28, RobG
    > <> posted:
    >
    > >The state of the current FAQ is irrelevant, it is mostly unreachable
    > >and can't be used reliably for reference.

    >
    > An exact search with Google for "Version 32.2, Updated 2010-10-08, by
    > Garrett Smith" shows one result, the copy at jibbering.


    I don't think posting links to a static copy is a suitable
    alternative. What impression is given when I provide a link to a
    static copy because the original is unreliable? Or if I link to a
    resource that may be, or may not be (and increasingly isn't),
    available? And isn't maintained?


    [...]
    > And if you follow the link in sig line 3 and read the links part near
    > the end, you can reach a copy of Version 32.2, by a route which Google
    > does not follow.


    An unmaintained copy will go out of date just as quickly as the
    original it was copied from.


    > Is it known how many copies of the FAQ are read from jibbering (when
    > working) per week? Can that be split into full copies fetched, and ones
    > where the user finds that the jibbering one is unchanged so he can use a
    > cached version, if that applies?


    I should be able to provide URLs to the actual, attained resource.
    Isn't that the point of them? If caching is appropriate, "the system"
    will work that out for me.

    Using Google's cached pages is not an option either, many enterprise
    sites simply block access in the same way they block social media,
    online email and any other generic group of sites they deem "not
    appropriate for work"[1].

    But none of this is fixing the FAQ issue, which can be very simply
    resolved.


    1. It is amazing hypocrisy when the organisations that introduce such
    blocking often make wide use such sites for their own marketing and
    public relations purposes.


    --
    Rob
    RobG, Jul 21, 2011
    #16
  17. In comp.lang.javascript message <a4e3b885-8cfa-4778-964e-388d20f03ac5@q2
    9g2000prj.googlegroups.com>, Wed, 20 Jul 2011 20:07:26, RobG
    <> posted:

    >On Jul 21, 4:54 am, Dr J R Stockton <>
    >wrote:
    >> In comp.lang.javascript message <d11d6639-4f3e-4fb1-8bc4-e97c047237bb@f3
    >> 9g2000prb.googlegroups.com>, Mon, 18 Jul 2011 21:35:28, RobG
    >> <> posted:
    >>
    >> >The state of the current FAQ is irrelevant, it is mostly unreachable
    >> >and can't be used reliably for reference.

    >>
    >> An exact search with Google for "Version 32.2, Updated 2010-10-08, by
    >> Garrett Smith" shows one result, the copy at jibbering.

    >
    >I don't think posting links to a static copy is a suitable
    >alternative. What impression is given when I provide a link to a
    >static copy because the original is unreliable?


    A rather better impression than if only the original link is given, and
    it does not work. Everyone should understand about backups.

    > Or if I link to a
    >resource that may be, or may not be (and increasingly isn't),
    >available? And isn't maintained?


    Most of the FAQ as Garrett left it is still useful. Likewise for Randy,
    Richard, and Jim. And a reader should read the release date.


    >[...]
    >> And if you follow the link in sig line 3 and read the links part near
    >> the end, you can reach a copy of Version 32.2, by a route which Google
    >> does not follow.

    >
    >An unmaintained copy will go out of date just as quickly as the
    >original it was copied from.


    My car still works, though I suspect that it would be illegal to sell
    new ones of that design.


    >> Is it known how many copies of the FAQ are read from jibbering (when
    >> working) per week? Can that be split into full copies fetched, and ones
    >> where the user finds that the jibbering one is unchanged so he can use a
    >> cached version, if that applies?

    >
    >I should be able to provide URLs to the actual, attained resource.
    >Isn't that the point of them? If caching is appropriate, "the system"
    >will work that out for me.


    True, but not the answer to the question. The answer would show the
    actual load on jibbering, from which I could decide whether to let
    search engines see my publicly-accessible copy of the FAQ.



    Our French members might like - pause to Google some French words, which
    found an unknown & better copy of them - to see my gravity4.htm#LIS .

    --
    (c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk Turnpike v6.05 MIME.
    Web <http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
    Dr J R Stockton, Jul 23, 2011
    #17
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