Mark up compound noun so that search engines see two words

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Greg N., Feb 11, 2006.

  1. Greg N.

    Greg N. Guest

    I need to mark up a compound noun such that it looks like one word on
    screen, but I want search bots to see two separate words.

    Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for the word
    "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.

    I was thinking to insert a   in a tiny font size between "kinder"
    and "garten". Are there other, maybe more elegant ways?

    My web sites are written in German. In this language, as you might
    know, the problem described above is ubiquitous.

    --
    Gregor's Motorradreisen:
    http://hothaus.de/greg-tour/
    Greg N., Feb 11, 2006
    #1
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  2. Greg N.

    BootNic Guest

    > "Greg N." <> wrote:
    > news:dskeps$97t$....
    >
    > I need to mark up a compound noun such that it looks like one word
    > on screen, but I want search bots to see two separate words.
    >
    > Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for the
    > word "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.
    >
    > I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between
    > "kinder" and "garten". Are there other, maybe more elegant ways?
    >
    > My web sites are written in German. In this language, as you might
    > know, the problem described above is ubiquitous.


    Hide the space with css, no clue what a search bot will do with it.

    kinder<span style="display:none;"> </span>garten

    --
    BootNic Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:38 AM

    Imagination was given to man to compensate him for what he isn't. A
    sense of humor was provided to console him for what he is.
    *Horace Walpole English novelist*
    BootNic, Feb 11, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. BootNic wrote:
    >>"Greg N." <> wrote:
    >>news:dskeps$97t$....
    >>
    >>I need to mark up a compound noun such that it looks like one word
    >>on screen, but I want search bots to see two separate words.
    >>
    >>Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for the
    >>word "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.
    >>
    >>I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between
    >>"kinder" and "garten". Are there other, maybe more elegant ways?
    >>
    >>My web sites are written in German. In this language, as you might
    >>know, the problem described above is ubiquitous.

    >
    >
    > Hide the space with css, no clue what a search bot will do with it.
    >
    > kinder<span style="display:none;"> </span>garten
    >

    Would this not be simpler?

    <p>... kinder<span>garten</span> ... </p>

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 11, 2006
    #3
  4. Greg N.

    BootNic Guest

    > "Jonathan N. Little" <> wrote:
    > news:43ee14c6$0$25079$....
    >
    > BootNic wrote:
    >>> "Greg N." <> wrote:
    >>> news:dskeps$97t$....
    >>>
    >>> I need to mark up a compound noun such that it looks like one word
    >>> on screen, but I want search bots to see two separate words.
    >>>
    >>> Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for
    >>> the word "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.
    >>>
    >>> I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between
    >>> "kinder" and "garten". Are there other, maybe more elegant ways?
    >>>
    >>> My web sites are written in German. In this language, as you
    >>> might know, the problem described above is ubiquitous.

    >>
    >>
    >> Hide the space with css, no clue what a search bot will do with it.
    >>
    >> kinder<span style="display:none;"> </span>garten
    >>

    > Would this not be simpler?
    >
    > <p>... kinder<span>garten</span> ... </p>


    I give up.

    Is it the same thing?

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    <html>
    <head>
    <script type="text/javascript">
    function blip(){
    tip=(document.body.textContent)?document.body.textContent:
    document.body.innerText;
    alert(tip)
    }
    window.onload=blip;
    </script>
    <title></title>
    </head>
    <body>
    <p>kinder<span style="display:none;"> </span>garten</p>
    <p>kinder<span>garten</span></p>
    </body>
    </html>

    --
    BootNic Saturday, February 11, 2006 12:36 PM

    One must learn by doing the thing, for though you think you know it,
    you have no certainty until you try.
    *Aristotle*
    BootNic, Feb 11, 2006
    #4
  5. Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 11, 2006
    #5
  6. "Greg N." <> wrote:

    > I need to mark up a compound noun such that it looks like one word
    > on screen, but I want search bots to see two separate words.


    Won't work, but you might cause some damage in trying to achieve that.

    > Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for the
    > word "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.


    I don't think that's any of your real examples.

    > I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between
    > "kinder" and "garten".


    And what happens when font size is forced by the user (or by the user
    agent)? How will speech browsers read it?

    > My web sites are written in German. In this language, as you might
    > know, the problem described above is ubiquitous.


    Surely there are situations where we would like to make components of a
    compound word key words in searching. In that case,
    a) use <meta name="keywords" content="kinder,garten">, which will
    not help much but won't cause damage either
    b) formulate the texts so that the relevant words appears as separate
    words, too; this should be possible if they can be significant
    content words in discussing the topic of the page - and if they
    aren't, should the page really match them in searches?
    c) hope that search engines will improve; did you actually check
    what Google finds when you use the search words
    kinder garten
    ? (You'll be surprised. But unfortunately, it's still rather
    limited functionality.)

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 11, 2006
    #6
  7. Greg N.

    Greg N. Guest

    Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    >>Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for the
    >>word "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.


    > I don't think that's any of your real examples.


    What are you trying to imply here? Of course it's not a real example, I
    was just trying to use a compound word that works well as an example in
    German and English.

    >>I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between
    >>"kinder" and "garten".

    >
    > And what happens when font size is forced by the user (or by the user
    > agent)? How will speech browsers read it?


    You tell me. You're the smart one around here.

    > In that case,
    > a) use .... which will not help much...


    Oh thanks.

    > b) formulate the texts so that the relevant words appears as separate
    > words, too; this should be possible if they can be significant
    > content words in discussing the topic of the page - and if they
    > aren't, should the page really match them in searches?


    again, you seem to imply I'm trying something unethical here, maybe
    keyword spamming? If I were as competent as you think you are, I'd only
    imply that after spotting some evidence.

    > c) ... did you actually check what Google finds when you use the search words
    > kinder garten? (You'll be surprised....


    What do you think it finds? Not Kindergarten, anyways, unless that site
    contains the words kinder and garten separately as well.

    --
    Gregor's Motorradreisen:
    http://hothaus.de/greg-tour/
    Greg N., Feb 12, 2006
    #7
  8. Greg N.

    Greg N. Guest

    Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    >> kinder<span style="display:none;"> </span>garten

    > Did you forget that CSS is for optional presentational suggestions?


    Well, is there really a problem? Whether a screen reader says "kinder
    garten" or "kindergarten" makes probably little or no audible
    difference. And if the CSS is not properly rendered by some browser,
    the user will see an extra space which will appear as a minor spelling
    quirk but not affect the meaning of the text.

    --
    Gregor's Motorradreisen:
    http://hothaus.de/greg-tour/
    Greg N., Feb 12, 2006
    #8
  9. Greg N.

    Neredbojias Guest

    With neither quill nor qualm, Greg N. quothed:

    > I need to mark up a compound noun such that it looks like one word on
    > screen, but I want search bots to see two separate words.
    >
    > Take, for example the word "Kindergarten". I want a search for the word
    > "kinder" or the word "garten" to hit upon my page.
    >
    > I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between "kinder"
    > and "garten". Are there other, maybe more elegant ways?
    >
    > My web sites are written in German. In this language, as you might
    > know, the problem described above is ubiquitous.


    This seems to work well at several different sizes and fonts:

    tel <span style="margin-left:-.25em;">star</span>

    Of course, I didn't check _all_ the sizes and fonts nor letter
    combinations nor how it breaks etc., etc.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
    Neredbojias, Feb 12, 2006
    #9
  10. Greg N.

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Greg N. wrote:

    > I was thinking to insert a &nbsp; in a tiny font size between "kinder"
    > and "garten". Are there other, maybe more elegant ways?


    kinder<small style="display:none">-</small>garten

    kindergarten

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Feb 12, 2006
    #10
  11. Greg N.

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Greg N. wrote:

    > What are you trying to imply here? Of course it's not a real example, I
    > was just trying to use a compound word that works well as an example in
    > German and English.


    Although "kindergarten" is used in English, "kinder" and "garten" alone
    aren't. Well, "kinder" (more kind) is spelt the same as "kinder" (German
    for child), but it's not really the same word.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Feb 12, 2006
    #11
  12. Jonathan N. Little wrote:

    > Would this not be simpler?
    >
    > <p>... kinder<span>garten</span> ... </p>
    >


    or maybe:

    <p> ... <span title="kinder, garten">kindergarten</span> ... </p>

    don't bots index the "title" attributes? You'll get a tooltip though...

    --
    cheers
    /chromatic_aberration
    chromatic_aberration, Feb 12, 2006
    #12
  13. "Greg N." <> wrote:

    > Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
    >
    >>> kinder<span style="display:none;"> </span>garten

    >> Did you forget that CSS is for optional presentational
    >> suggestions?

    >
    > Well, is there really a problem?


    Yes, the markup would indeed create a problem (probably without solving
    any problem).

    > Whether a screen reader says
    > "kinder garten" or "kindergarten" makes probably little or no
    > audible difference.


    Did you actually try it?

    > And if the CSS is not properly rendered by
    > some browser, the user will see an extra space which will appear as
    > a minor spelling quirk but not affect the meaning of the text.


    If it does not matter, why don't you just misspell the word as
    "kinder garten" and forget the complexities? Then you, as an author,
    would not too easily miss to see the problem you have created.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 12, 2006
    #13
  14. "Greg N." <> wrote:

    >> I don't think that's any of your real examples.

    >
    > What are you trying to imply here?


    That you did not present your real problem.

    > You tell me. You're the smart one around here.


    I find it mildly disguisting that you make nasty notes about a named
    person and hide yourself under an incomplete name.

    > again, you seem to imply I'm trying something unethical here, maybe
    > keyword spamming?


    I am implying that you did not present your real problem, and you seem
    to prove it by not explaining it, by not giving any URL or other real
    examples that would illustrate it, and by trying to insult.

    > If I were as competent as you think you are, I'd
    > only imply that after spotting some evidence.


    Is this your usual way of talking to people who are capable of helping
    and were even willing to do that for free?

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 12, 2006
    #14
  15. Toby Inkster <> wrote:

    > kinder<small style="display:none">-</small>garten


    That's not elegant at all, because the hyphen would appear in small
    font when CSS is disabled but <small> markup is honored. Besides, the
    way Google handles hyphenated compounds is somewhat mysterious.

    Using kinder&shy;garten might be reasonable _if_ you think that it is
    acceptable to spell the word as "kinder-garten", too.

    > kindergarten


    The U+FEFF character is a space character. Though it has nominally no
    width, it may be expanded in justification, and it also constitutes an
    allowed line break point - a direct line break point, not a hyphenation
    point. Would you like to have the word split as "kinder" (without a
    hyphen) at the end of a line.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 12, 2006
    #15
  16. Greg N.

    Greg N. Guest

    Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    >>>I don't think that's any of your real examples.

    >>What are you trying to imply here?

    > That you did not present your real problem.


    I think I did.

    >>You tell me. You're the smart one around here.

    > I find it mildly disguisting that you make nasty notes about a named
    > person and hide yourself under an incomplete name.


    Come on, there is more information about me on the web than about most
    other netcitizens. I'm not hiding at all, and you _know_ that.

    >>again, you seem to imply I'm trying something unethical here, maybe
    >>keyword spamming?

    >
    > I am implying that you did not present your real problem, and you seem
    > to prove it by not explaining it, by not giving any URL or other real
    > examples that would illustrate it, and by trying to insult.


    I thought I described my problem very accurately, so that no URL was
    required. When Im opened the thread, there was just text, no html or
    css (yet) pertaining to the problem.

    All I have is a compund noun in German that I want Google to treat both
    parts of separately. Do you really need an URL for such a simple
    question?

    But if you insist, ok. It is the site in my sig below. And it is not
    the word "Kindergarten" but, for instance, "Motorradreisen". By now, I
    have changed it in ways suggested here by others.

    > Is this your usual way of talking to people who are capable of helping
    > and were even willing to do that for free?


    Well, it's not always apparent to me that you're going out of your way
    trying to help.

    Many of your posts are of the "you're asking the wrong question", or
    "you're not explaining all of it", or "what if a speech browser sees
    this", etc.. Ok, sometimes this helps, thank you.

    But sometimes, I get the impression you know a straightforward answer,
    and you're hinting but not telling, just to rub our nose into the fact
    that you know better.

    You may say, this is all insulting and rude, and you may plonk me. Or
    you may think about it.

    --
    Gregor's Motorradreisen:
    http://hothaus.de/greg-tour/
    Greg N., Feb 12, 2006
    #16
  17. Greg N.

    dorayme Guest

    In article <Xns9768F011216BFjkorpelacstutfi@193.229.4.246>,
    "Jukka K. Korpela" <> wrote:

    > "Greg N." <> wrote:
    >
    > >> I don't think that's any of your real examples.

    > >
    > > What are you trying to imply here?

    >
    > That you did not present your real problem.
    >
    > > You tell me. You're the smart one around here.

    >
    > I find it mildly disguisting that you make nasty notes about a named
    > person and hide yourself under an incomplete name.
    >


    This is silly indeed. In general, if you had learnt from my
    previous advice to you, you would see that there are far more
    serious types of "personal " deceptions than the use of nom de
    plumes on email addresses for newsgroups. But in particular, this
    is quite outlandishly bad, this GregN, for God's sake has
    published pictures of himself on motorbikes. There's not much
    that is incomplete about this. How about a picture of you on a
    motorbike for us to see? Or a camel?

    > > again, you seem to imply I'm trying something unethical here, maybe
    > > keyword spamming?

    >
    > I am implying that you did not present your real problem, and you seem
    > to prove it by not explaining it, by not giving any URL or other real
    > examples that would illustrate it, and by trying to insult.
    >
    > > If I were as competent as you think you are, I'd
    > > only imply that after spotting some evidence.

    >
    > Is this your usual way of talking to people who are capable of helping
    > and were even willing to do that for free?


    Once again, you have obviously not learnt from my previous
    lessons to you about this sentiment. In case I never put it this
    way, getting advice from you is rarely free, it so often comes at
    the price of humiliation.

    --
    dorayme
    dorayme, Feb 13, 2006
    #17
  18. Greg N.

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    > The U+FEFF character is a space character. Though it has nominally no
    > width, it may be expanded in justification, and it also constitutes an
    > allowed line break point - a direct line break point, not a hyphenation
    > point. Would you like to have the word split as "kinder" (without a
    > hyphen) at the end of a line.


    U+FEFF is the zero-width NON-BREAKING space.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
    Toby Inkster, Feb 13, 2006
    #18
  19. "Greg N." <> wrote:

    >> That you did not present your real problem.

    >
    > I think I did.


    You can keep thinking that way, but it won't help you.

    >>>You tell me. You're the smart one around here.

    >> I find it mildly disguisting that you make nasty notes about a
    >> named person and hide yourself under an incomplete name.

    >
    > Come on, there is more information about me on the web than about
    > most other netcitizens. I'm not hiding at all, and you _know_
    > that.


    I know that you are using a protocol-incorrect From field; "Greg N."
    cannot be your full name. Whether you indirectly reveal your identity
    is immaterial.

    > I thought I described my problem very accurately, so that no URL
    > was required.


    People generally ask for help when they expect that someone else knows
    better the issue at hand. Then it is reasonable to assume that if
    others ask for further information, they _know_ that more information
    is needed.

    > All I have is a compund noun in German that I want Google to treat
    > both parts of separately. Do you really need an URL for such a
    > simple question?


    No, but you would have needed to post it. Whether you believe it or
    not, I know the topic better than you, and I know that the problem
    cannot be solved in such an abstract form and in isoltation.

    > But if you insist, ok. It is the site in my sig below.


    Sigs are for fun and for "nice to know" stuff. Don't rely on sigs in
    any way. For all that you can know, I may have configured my newsreader
    to suppress sigs, since they are mostly just boring or worse. And
    mentioning a site isn't sufficient; you haven't told _how_ the issue
    would be relevant there.

    > And it is
    > not the word "Kindergarten" but, for instance, "Motorradreisen".


    "For instance"? Was there _any_ other word you worried about?
    (And you probably worried about a split to main components only, not to
    "Motor", "Rad", and "Reisen". So it _was_ rather specific.)

    > By now, I have changed it in ways suggested here by others.


    That's your prerogative. You can mistype words in a misguided attempt
    at boosting your page in Google. After all, Usenet is an almost
    infinite supply of wrong advice, especially to those who fail to
    formulate their questions reasonably even after continued attempts at
    helping them.

    Now your main heading says you don't care about elementary rules of
    orthography of the language you are writing in. Believe it or not, the
    trick _is_ visible, even on graphic browsers.

    > You may say, this is all insulting and rude,


    No, this time you just exercised pointless babbling.

    > and you may plonk me.


    That's irrelevant to you, actually; you seem to be destined to use only
    the advice that looks pleasant to you.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 15, 2006
    #19
  20. Toby Inkster <> wrote:

    > Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
    >
    >> The U+FEFF character is a space character. Though it has nominally
    >> no width, it may be expanded in justification, and it also
    >> constitutes an allowed line break point - a direct line break
    >> point, not a hyphenation point. Would you like to have the word
    >> split as "kinder" (without a hyphen) at the end of a line.

    >
    > U+FEFF is the zero-width NON-BREAKING space.


    You're right; I should try to remember that I don't remember all
    Unicode characters yet. (And I really _should_ remember correctly what
    U+FEFF is. [Slaps himself.])

    The defined meaning of U+FEFF is that it is a) a byte order mark (BOM),
    b) an invisible control character for preventing a line break, and in
    the latter role, U+2060 WORD JOINER is preferred. This means, in
    effect, that by Unicode recommendations, U+FEFF should only be used at
    the start of a text file as BOM.

    This is somewhat theoretic of course, since U+2060 is poorly supported.
    Besides, HTML specifications do not require that Unicode semantics be
    obeyed; on the other hand, this means that the effect of U+FEFF in an
    HTML document is _undefined_.

    What you are really saying by using kindergarten is that the
    word "kindergarten" be not divided into its components in word
    division. This has little effect at present, since browsers don't do
    word division.

    So in that sense, it might be a harmless trick in an attempt to make
    indexing robots treat the construct as two words. However, we have no
    guarantee that this actually happens (after all, search engines _could_
    be Unicode-aware and treat a word with prevented line break inside as
    very much a single word).

    Some user agents will choke on . Such user agents are rare
    these days, but before taking a risk, I would like to see that
    something can possibly be gained. If the split into components is
    natural (and "kinder" and "garten" is not, for English text), then it
    would be better to _use_ the component words in natural sentences as
    healthy, natural food for search engines. If it isn't, the whole trick
    is probably quite pointless; nobody is going to search for "kinder" and
    "garten" if he wants to find info on kindergartens.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 15, 2006
    #20
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