menu usable?

T

Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record

Hello

Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
accessibility issues?

Can someone test with older browsers on a MAC and make
a screencap?

Thanks
chlori
Looks good.
nearly 'A' compliant. - needs a alt tag for the image.
nearly 'AAA' compliant. needs a language identifier.

With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
also validate.

Test for yourself http://validator.w3.org/ for validating code.
Test your CSS here http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Test for A, AA & AAA here http://webxact.watchfire.com/

<A message to top posters. Type your reply here>
 
B

brucie

In alt.html chlori said:
Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS?

· unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
100 of them.

· common problem with those types of menus is falling apart with small
windows and/or large fonts. perhaps a min-width in ems so it adjusts
with the font size (min-width not supported by IE) but then you'll get
icky horizontal scroll bars.

· apart from those issues and not being able to read a word i found it
very clear, easy to use and to know where i was. not so easy without css
but i suspect its just because i cant read it.

· the site works with just vanilla html so i don't think you need to
worry about it not working in browsers. it even works in prehistoric NS2
and web tv.
Any accessibility issues?

· your logo should be in a <h1> with alt text of whatever the image
says. only one <h1> per page, use less important <hx> as required
through the page.

· think of more appropriate alt texts.

· i expect a big bag lollies (soft squishy ones, i don't like hard ones)
 
C

chlori

Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record schrieb am
05.11.2004 10:30:
With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
also validate.

How important is A, AA, AAA compliance? And for who is
it important? (I've never heard of this before.)

chlori
 
C

chlori

brucie schrieb am 05.11.2004 10:42:
· unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
100 of them.

So: "Font size 1em in not the same size as 100%!"?
And: "Never use 'em' for font-sizes!"?

Is it safe not to define the font size at all? Is there
a difference between '100%' and 'no defined font size'?
· your logo should be in a <h1> with alt text of whatever the image
says. only one <h1> per page, use less important <hx> as required
through the page.

Is that for search enginges or speech-/text-browsers?

Thanks
chlori
 
B

brucie

In alt.html chlori said:
How
g'day

important is A, AA, AAA compliance?

not very, it just a guide to point you in the right direction for making
your site accessible to the widest range of users but design your site
to be accessible not to appease a program or list of checkpoints.
they're not the same thing and sometimes conflict.

and i forgot to mention in my previous post you may have an issue with
the contrast of the blue on blue text.
And for who is it important?

everyone because everyone benefits.

30 days to a more accessible web site
http://diveintoaccessibility.org/

Web Accessibility Initiative (W3C)
http://www.w3.org/WAI/

Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/

Accessibility checking - can programs do it? (not really)
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/acctools.html

a-prompt: http://aprompt.snow.utoronto.ca/
cynthia says (508/wcag): http://www.contentquality.com/
website analysis http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
website checklist http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html
 
B

brucie

In alt.html chlori said:
So: "Font size 1em in not the same size as 100%!"?

not always with IE.
And: "Never use 'em' for font-sizes!"?

IE gets upset sometimes, it just easier to use % rather than risk
invoking the ems bug.
Is it safe not to define the font size at all?

if you don't the visitor will get their default sizes. the visitor
wouldn't set the size to something they cant read so you know they'll be
able to read the text.

use whatever sizes you like but don't go below 100% unless for some
reason you want to make it more difficult for your visitors to read
something.
Is there a difference between '100%' and 'no defined font size'?

no. the default size whatever it may be is always 100%.
Is that for search enginges or speech-/text-browsers?

and semantics.

wheres my bag of lollies?
 
J

Jan Faerber

brucie said:
· apart from those issues and not being able to read a word i found it
very clear, easy to use and to know where i was. not so easy without css
but i suspect its just because i cant read it.

'ALZ Maschinen für die Bäckerei-, Biscuit- und Schokoladenindustrie'
=> dough mixer and other maschines for the industrial production of biscuits
and chocolate
· i expect a big bag lollies (soft squishy ones, i don't like hard ones)

rofl -
 
C

chlori

brucie schrieb am 05.11.2004 11:18:
wheres my bag of lollies?

downstairs. but i only have a bag of hard *and* soft
lollies. do i have to sort them manually? :)

chlori
 
B

brucie

In alt.html chlori said:
downstairs. but i only have a bag of hard *and* soft
lollies. do i have to sort them manually? :)

no, its fine, i'll get pelt the hard ones at you as i get to them.
 
J

Jukka K. Korpela

Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record said:
- -
Looks good.

No it doesn't. The text is _grossly_ too small. Moreover, there's no
obvious indication that the links are links. They resemble too much
the normal (non-link) text in the logo. Moreover, the image on the page
looks as if there were for images that are links, since in common
browsers, image links by default have blue border around them.

The currently chosen page's entry in the list is shown as different from
the rest, quite correctly. But it's still a link. A page should not
contain a link to itself - it's confusing.

On the positive side, the link texts themselves, verbally, constitute a
fairly good menu - even I can understand what the items are, and my
German is rather rusty. And it's properly written as <ul> at the markup
level, so that non-graphic browsers will present it suitably, except for
the feature that one of the links points to the page itself and is in no
way different from the other links (when CSS is not in use).
With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
also validate.

This mainly shows that "accessibility checkers" aren't. But we knew that
already. And WAI recommendations are just rough guidelines that should
help, rather than restrict, the analysis of accessibility.
 
T

Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record

No it doesn't. The text is _grossly_ too small. Moreover, there's no
obvious indication that the links are links. They resemble too much
the normal (non-link) text in the logo. Moreover, the image on the page
looks as if there were for images that are links, since in common
browsers, image links by default have blue border around them.

The currently chosen page's entry in the list is shown as different from
the rest, quite correctly. But it's still a link. A page should not
contain a link to itself - it's confusing.

On the positive side, the link texts themselves, verbally, constitute a
fairly good menu - even I can understand what the items are, and my
German is rather rusty. And it's properly written as <ul> at the markup
level, so that non-graphic browsers will present it suitably, except for
the feature that one of the links points to the page itself and is in no
way different from the other links (when CSS is not in use).


This mainly shows that "accessibility checkers" aren't. But we knew that
already. And WAI recommendations are just rough guidelines that should
help, rather than restrict, the analysis of accessibility.

His pages are far more aesthetically pleasing to yours.
On my machine the text looked good.
The code almost validates.
With a little more effort he will have it right.

<A message to top posters. Type your reply here>
 
N

Neal

His pages are far more aesthetically pleasing to yours.

Aesthetics != accessibility. A page can be both, but a failure in
aesthetics can still be accessible, while an inaccessible page can't be
saved by aesthetics. Jukka's pages aren't about looking pretty, anyhow.
Apples and bananas.
On my machine the text looked good.

Only a few million machines to go...
The code almost validates.

That's like being "a little pregnant".
With a little more effort he will have it right.

I agree. No reason to slug it out, though.
 
H

Henry

brucie said:
In alt.html chlori said:




· unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
100 of them.

BS! Looks perfect in IE6 and Firefox1.00.

Brucie needs sex badly and lack of it causing serious vision problems!

Can you read Google, brucie?

If font is equal to fonts used by users in menu browser or bigger, the
size is perfectly readable.

Tahoma 9pt is not to small.

Check one of the biggest and most often read pages, like Google,
Yahoo... http://www.yahoo.com/

BTW. nice job in css at Yahoo! And source ready to copy on the same page.

· common problem with those types of menus is falling apart with small
windows and/or large fonts.

80% pages are falling apart with small windows, Yahoo included. Your
page can be really narrow and no probs at all. Performs better than
Yahoo page.

Don't be depressed by these dinosaurs.

:)
 
H

Henry

Henry wrote:

Check one of the biggest and most often read pages, like Google,
Yahoo... http://www.yahoo.com/


BTW. Yahoo has nearly indentical menu as on your page, just different
colours and... SMALLER FONTS.

(Poor brucie has no chances to read it, if he wan unable read yours!

Sleep well!

:)
 
B

brucie

In alt.html Mr Bean said:
That's not how it looks in Firefox 100 and

i didn't say there was an issue with FF.
IE6.0 SP2.

for **** sake. this may come as a shock but not everyone has the same
fucking browser setup as you do. i'll say it again nice and slowly: IE
has a bug with ems. clearly your setup doesn't invoke the bug. that does
not mean the bug doesn't exist.
Just checked in IE 5.0 and still looks good.

i cant remember if IE5 also has the bug. set your font size to smallest
and have a look at: http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/
 

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