menu usable?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by chlori, Nov 5, 2004.

  1. chlori

    chlori Guest

    Hello

    Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
    accessibility issues?

    Can someone test with older browsers on a MAC and make
    a screencap?

    Thanks
    chlori
    chlori, Nov 5, 2004
    #1
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  2. On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 09:47:18 +0100, chlori <chlori@.invalid> wrote:

    >Hello
    >
    >Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    >readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
    >accessibility issues?
    >
    >Can someone test with older browsers on a MAC and make
    >a screencap?
    >
    >Thanks
    >chlori

    Looks good.
    nearly 'A' compliant. - needs a alt tag for the image.
    nearly 'AAA' compliant. needs a language identifier.

    With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
    also validate.

    Test for yourself http://validator.w3.org/ for validating code.
    Test your CSS here http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
    Test for A, AA & AAA here http://webxact.watchfire.com/

    <A message to top posters. Type your reply here>

    --
    Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur
    built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
    Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record, Nov 5, 2004
    #2
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  3. chlori

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html chlori said:

    > Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    > readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS?


    · unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
    100 of them.

    · common problem with those types of menus is falling apart with small
    windows and/or large fonts. perhaps a min-width in ems so it adjusts
    with the font size (min-width not supported by IE) but then you'll get
    icky horizontal scroll bars.

    · apart from those issues and not being able to read a word i found it
    very clear, easy to use and to know where i was. not so easy without css
    but i suspect its just because i cant read it.

    · the site works with just vanilla html so i don't think you need to
    worry about it not working in browsers. it even works in prehistoric NS2
    and web tv.

    > Any accessibility issues?


    · your logo should be in a <h1> with alt text of whatever the image
    says. only one <h1> per page, use less important <hx> as required
    through the page.

    · think of more appropriate alt texts.

    · i expect a big bag lollies (soft squishy ones, i don't like hard ones)

    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
    brucie, Nov 5, 2004
    #3
  4. chlori

    Alan Cole Guest

    In article <cmfeld$kb0$-plus.net>, chlori <chlori@.invalid>
    wrote:

    > Hello
    >
    > Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    > readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
    > accessibility issues?
    >
    > Can someone test with older browsers on a MAC and make
    > a screencap?
    >
    > Thanks
    > chlori


    Looks fine here on a Mac (Modern browsers not old ones.)

    Al.

    --
    Alan Cole. E-mail: justal at lineone dot net
    http://www.forces-of-nature.co.uk [Coastal Sports]
    http://www.tsunami-site-design.co.uk [Website Design]
    http://tinyurl.com/64xrd [Plusnet ISP]
    Alan Cole, Nov 5, 2004
    #4
  5. chlori

    chlori Guest

    Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record schrieb am
    05.11.2004 10:30:
    > With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
    > also validate.


    How important is A, AA, AAA compliance? And for who is
    it important? (I've never heard of this before.)

    chlori
    chlori, Nov 5, 2004
    #5
  6. chlori

    chlori Guest

    brucie schrieb am 05.11.2004 10:42:
    > · unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
    > 100 of them.


    So: "Font size 1em in not the same size as 100%!"?
    And: "Never use 'em' for font-sizes!"?

    Is it safe not to define the font size at all? Is there
    a difference between '100%' and 'no defined font size'?

    > · your logo should be in a <h1> with alt text of whatever the image
    > says. only one <h1> per page, use less important <hx> as required
    > through the page.


    Is that for search enginges or speech-/text-browsers?

    Thanks
    chlori
    chlori, Nov 5, 2004
    #6
  7. chlori

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html chlori said:

    > How


    g'day

    > important is A, AA, AAA compliance?


    not very, it just a guide to point you in the right direction for making
    your site accessible to the widest range of users but design your site
    to be accessible not to appease a program or list of checkpoints.
    they're not the same thing and sometimes conflict.

    and i forgot to mention in my previous post you may have an issue with
    the contrast of the blue on blue text.

    > And for who is it important?


    everyone because everyone benefits.

    30 days to a more accessible web site
    http://diveintoaccessibility.org/

    Web Accessibility Initiative (W3C)
    http://www.w3.org/WAI/

    Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0
    http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/

    Accessibility checking - can programs do it? (not really)
    http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www/acctools.html

    a-prompt: http://aprompt.snow.utoronto.ca/
    cynthia says (508/wcag): http://www.contentquality.com/
    website analysis http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
    website checklist http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html

    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
    brucie, Nov 5, 2004
    #7
  8. chlori

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html chlori said:

    >> · unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
    >> 100 of them.


    > So: "Font size 1em in not the same size as 100%!"?


    not always with IE.

    > And: "Never use 'em' for font-sizes!"?


    IE gets upset sometimes, it just easier to use % rather than risk
    invoking the ems bug.

    > Is it safe not to define the font size at all?


    if you don't the visitor will get their default sizes. the visitor
    wouldn't set the size to something they cant read so you know they'll be
    able to read the text.

    use whatever sizes you like but don't go below 100% unless for some
    reason you want to make it more difficult for your visitors to read
    something.

    > Is there a difference between '100%' and 'no defined font size'?


    no. the default size whatever it may be is always 100%.

    >> · your logo should be in a <h1> with alt text of whatever the image
    >> says. only one <h1> per page, use less important <hx> as required
    >> through the page.


    > Is that for search enginges or speech-/text-browsers?


    and semantics.

    wheres my bag of lollies?


    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
    brucie, Nov 5, 2004
    #8
  9. chlori

    Jim Higson Guest

    chlori wrote:

    > Hello
    >
    > Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    > readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
    > accessibility issues?
    >
    > Can someone test with older browsers on a MAC and make
    > a screencap?
    >
    > Thanks
    > chlori


    Fine in Konqueror 3.2
    Jim Higson, Nov 5, 2004
    #9
  10. chlori

    Jan Faerber Guest

    brucie wrote:

    > · apart from those issues and not being able to read a word i found it
    > very clear, easy to use and to know where i was. not so easy without css
    > but i suspect its just because i cant read it.


    'ALZ Maschinen für die Bäckerei-, Biscuit- und Schokoladenindustrie'
    => dough mixer and other maschines for the industrial production of biscuits
    and chocolate

    > · i expect a big bag lollies (soft squishy ones, i don't like hard ones)


    rofl -



    --
    Jan

    http://www.janfaerber.com
    Jan Faerber, Nov 5, 2004
    #10
  11. chlori

    chlori Guest

    brucie schrieb am 05.11.2004 11:18:
    > wheres my bag of lollies?


    downstairs. but i only have a bag of hard *and* soft
    lollies. do i have to sort them manually? :)

    chlori
    chlori, Nov 5, 2004
    #11
  12. chlori

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html chlori said:

    >> wheres my bag of lollies?


    > downstairs. but i only have a bag of hard *and* soft
    > lollies. do i have to sort them manually? :)


    no, its fine, i'll get pelt the hard ones at you as i get to them.


    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
    brucie, Nov 5, 2004
    #12
  13. Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record <> wrote:

    >>Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    >>readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
    >>accessibility issues?

    - -
    > Looks good.


    No it doesn't. The text is _grossly_ too small. Moreover, there's no
    obvious indication that the links are links. They resemble too much
    the normal (non-link) text in the logo. Moreover, the image on the page
    looks as if there were for images that are links, since in common
    browsers, image links by default have blue border around them.

    The currently chosen page's entry in the list is shown as different from
    the rest, quite correctly. But it's still a link. A page should not
    contain a link to itself - it's confusing.

    On the positive side, the link texts themselves, verbally, constitute a
    fairly good menu - even I can understand what the items are, and my
    German is rather rusty. And it's properly written as <ul> at the markup
    level, so that non-graphic browsers will present it suitably, except for
    the feature that one of the links points to the page itself and is in no
    way different from the other links (when CSS is not in use).

    > With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
    > also validate.


    This mainly shows that "accessibility checkers" aren't. But we knew that
    already. And WAI recommendations are just rough guidelines that should
    help, rather than restrict, the analysis of accessibility.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
    Jukka K. Korpela, Nov 5, 2004
    #13
  14. On Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:58:12 +0000 (UTC), "Jukka K. Korpela"
    <> wrote:

    >Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record <> wrote:
    >
    >>>Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    >>>readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS? Any
    >>>accessibility issues?

    >- -
    >> Looks good.

    >
    >No it doesn't. The text is _grossly_ too small. Moreover, there's no
    >obvious indication that the links are links. They resemble too much
    >the normal (non-link) text in the logo. Moreover, the image on the page
    >looks as if there were for images that are links, since in common
    >browsers, image links by default have blue border around them.
    >
    >The currently chosen page's entry in the list is shown as different from
    >the rest, quite correctly. But it's still a link. A page should not
    >contain a link to itself - it's confusing.
    >
    >On the positive side, the link texts themselves, verbally, constitute a
    >fairly good menu - even I can understand what the items are, and my
    >German is rather rusty. And it's properly written as <ul> at the markup
    >level, so that non-graphic browsers will present it suitably, except for
    >the feature that one of the links points to the page itself and is in no
    >way different from the other links (when CSS is not in use).
    >
    >> With the alt tag fixed it would be 'AA' compliant and your xhtml would
    >> also validate.

    >
    >This mainly shows that "accessibility checkers" aren't. But we knew that
    >already. And WAI recommendations are just rough guidelines that should
    >help, rather than restrict, the analysis of accessibility.


    His pages are far more aesthetically pleasing to yours.
    On my machine the text looked good.
    The code almost validates.
    With a little more effort he will have it right.

    <A message to top posters. Type your reply here>

    --
    Never be afraid to try something new. Remember that a lone amateur
    built the Ark. A large group of professionals built the Titanic.
    Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record, Nov 5, 2004
    #14
  15. chlori

    Neal Guest

    On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 18:39:37 GMT, Titus A Ducksass - AKA broken-record
    <> wrote:

    > His pages are far more aesthetically pleasing to yours.


    Aesthetics != accessibility. A page can be both, but a failure in
    aesthetics can still be accessible, while an inaccessible page can't be
    saved by aesthetics. Jukka's pages aren't about looking pretty, anyhow.
    Apples and bananas.

    > On my machine the text looked good.


    Only a few million machines to go...

    > The code almost validates.


    That's like being "a little pregnant".

    > With a little more effort he will have it right.


    I agree. No reason to slug it out, though.
    Neal, Nov 5, 2004
    #15
  16. chlori

    Henry Guest

    brucie wrote:
    > In alt.html chlori said:
    >
    >
    >>Is the menu (http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/)
    >>readable and usable in 'every' browser/OS?

    >
    >
    > · unreadably small text in IE due to bug with ems. use percentages and
    > 100 of them.


    BS! Looks perfect in IE6 and Firefox1.00.

    Brucie needs sex badly and lack of it causing serious vision problems!

    Can you read Google, brucie?

    If font is equal to fonts used by users in menu browser or bigger, the
    size is perfectly readable.

    Tahoma 9pt is not to small.

    Check one of the biggest and most often read pages, like Google,
    Yahoo... http://www.yahoo.com/

    BTW. nice job in css at Yahoo! And source ready to copy on the same page.


    > · common problem with those types of menus is falling apart with small
    > windows and/or large fonts.


    80% pages are falling apart with small windows, Yahoo included. Your
    page can be really narrow and no probs at all. Performs better than
    Yahoo page.

    Don't be depressed by these dinosaurs.

    :)
    Henry, Nov 5, 2004
    #16
  17. chlori

    Henry Guest

    Henry wrote:


    > Check one of the biggest and most often read pages, like Google,
    > Yahoo... http://www.yahoo.com/



    BTW. Yahoo has nearly indentical menu as on your page, just different
    colours and... SMALLER FONTS.

    (Poor brucie has no chances to read it, if he wan unable read yours!

    Sleep well!

    :)
    Henry, Nov 5, 2004
    #17
  18. chlori

    brucie Guest

    brucie, Nov 6, 2004
    #18
  19. chlori

    Mr Bean Guest

    Mr Bean, Nov 6, 2004
    #19
  20. chlori

    brucie Guest

    In alt.html Mr Bean said:

    >> using .9em;
    >> http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/screencap001.png [2.6k]
    >> using 90%;
    >> http://moreshit.usenetshit.info/screencap002.png [2.6k]


    > That's not how it looks in Firefox 100 and


    i didn't say there was an issue with FF.

    > IE6.0 SP2.


    for **** sake. this may come as a shock but not everyone has the same
    fucking browser setup as you do. i'll say it again nice and slowly: IE
    has a bug with ems. clearly your setup doesn't invoke the bug. that does
    not mean the bug doesn't exist.

    > Just checked in IE 5.0 and still looks good.


    i cant remember if IE5 also has the bug. set your font size to smallest
    and have a look at: http://www.alz-maschinen.ch/vorschlag1/


    --
    the facts and opinions expressed by brucies
    l i t t l e v o i c e s
    are not necessarily the same as those held by brucie.
    brucie, Nov 6, 2004
    #20
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