Mnemonic

Discussion in 'C Programming' started by jacob navia, Nov 3, 2007.

  1. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    Mnemonic means trying to remember.

    Mnemonic means making annotations that remind you.

    Speaking about mnemonic I saw this message.

    Tor Rustad wrote:
    > Richard wrote:
    >
    >> From some of the comments I read here, I often wonder if the people
    >> knocking debuggers have any idea whatsoever of just what they are, how
    >> they work and the results they can achieve.

    >
    > We are old. Debugging a 300.000 line monster, wasn't very practical on a
    > VT100 terminal. Something like 24 lines of code on the screen... so a
    > program listing was usually nearby.
    >


    One of the problems with old people is that they tend to live in the
    past.

    They will always start telling you their "war stories" to
    impress in the naive youths how HARD were the old times.

    Again and again, without ever paying attention to the bored look of the
    people around them...

    Who cares about the old times?

    TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!

    I am too old to live in the past. That was something I could afford
    only back then... I am younger now.

    TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!

    There is no more time to waste looking back into what was
    "back then", filling life with too much rubbish that
    can be safely forgotten.

    This group is looking like those old people groups,
    where each one starts the never ending stories, always repeated,

    "You remember back then?"

    When the Unisys XXX and his padding bits, 36.688 bit word
    existed?

    Ahhh the PDP11 and the VT100 terminal... Those were the times my friend.

    The problem with age is that you tend to be swallowed by your memories.

    You loose the future, the curiosity, the opennes of wondering. You
    become a prisoner of the past, you abhor change. C99 is way too new.

    Let's go back to C89... Those were the times my friend!

    TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!
    jacob navia, Nov 3, 2007
    #1
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  2. jacob navia

    santosh Guest

    jacob navia wrote:

    <snipped tedious rant against history>

    History teaches humility and perspective and gives a new value to
    current life as the result of a collective spirit and labour of many
    billions before use.

    Trying hard to forget the past is as sure a sign of abnormality as
    always wrapped up in it.

    PS. BTW by many points of view C itself is a legacy language or nearly
    one. Since you want to forget history and legacy so badly, why don't
    you consider developing for one of the many shiny new languages popping
    up every now and then. I suggest C#/CLI/.NET. It has many of the
    features that you are constantly trying to bolt onto C.
    santosh, Nov 3, 2007
    #2
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  3. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    santosh wrote:
    > jacob navia wrote:
    >
    > <snipped tedious rant against history>
    >
    > History teaches humility and perspective and gives a new value to
    > current life as the result of a collective spirit and labour of many
    > billions before use.
    >
    > Trying hard to forget the past is as sure a sign of abnormality as
    > always wrapped up in it.
    >
    > PS. BTW by many points of view C itself is a legacy language or nearly
    > one. Since you want to forget history and legacy so badly, why don't
    > you consider developing for one of the many shiny new languages popping
    > up every now and then. I suggest C#/CLI/.NET. It has many of the
    > features that you are constantly trying to bolt onto C.
    >


    I do not think that C is a legacy language. And I am not "against
    history" obviously. I am against people that live in the past.

    You do not forget history, but you do not live in the past. The
    past is a guide to the future, not just a remembering without
    any goal, like in the groups of some old people like this one.


    --
    jacob navia
    jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
    logiciels/informatique
    http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
    jacob navia, Nov 4, 2007
    #3
  4. In article <472d7d03$0$25934$>,
    jacob navia <> wrote:
    ....
    >I do not think that C is a legacy language. And I am not "against
    >history" obviously. I am against people that live in the past.


    C, as defined in this newsgroup, *is* a legacy language.

    Jacob (and others in the real world, not in this ng [e.g., Microsoft])
    want to "embrace and expand" C into something modern and useful (what
    one of the santoshes calls "bolting on"). The regs in this NG want no
    part of that.
    Kenny McCormack, Nov 4, 2007
    #4
  5. jacob navia

    Eric Sosman Guest

    Kenny McCormack wrote:
    > In article <472d7d03$0$25934$>,
    > jacob navia <> wrote:
    > ...
    >> I do not think that C is a legacy language. And I am not "against
    >> history" obviously. I am against people that live in the past.

    >
    > C, as defined in this newsgroup, *is* a legacy language.


    Is there something wrong with a legacy?

    leg.a.cy, n 1 : a gift by will esp. of money or other
    personal property : BEQUEST 2 : something received from
    an ancestor or predecessor or from the past
    -- Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary

    When the time comes (or came), will you (did you) refuse your
    inheritance?

    > Jacob (and others in the real world, not in this ng [e.g., Microsoft])
    > want to "embrace and expand" C into something modern and useful (what
    > one of the santoshes calls "bolting on"). The regs in this NG want no
    > part of that.


    To the final sentence (only): A-men, brother!

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Nov 4, 2007
    #5
  6. In article <>,
    Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    >Kenny McCormack wrote:
    >> In article <472d7d03$0$25934$>,
    >> jacob navia <> wrote:
    >> ...
    >>> I do not think that C is a legacy language. And I am not "against
    >>> history" obviously. I am against people that live in the past.

    >>
    >> C, as defined in this newsgroup, *is* a legacy language.

    >
    > Is there something wrong with a legacy?
    >
    > leg.a.cy, n 1 : a gift by will esp. of money or other
    > personal property : BEQUEST 2 : something received from
    > an ancestor or predecessor or from the past
    > -- Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary
    >
    >When the time comes (or came), will you (did you) refuse your
    >inheritance?


    Heh heh. While I certainly take your meaning, the fact is that, in
    modern computer industry vernacular, the word legacy is always a word of
    negative connotation.

    I didn't make the rules.
    Kenny McCormack, Nov 4, 2007
    #6
  7. jacob navia

    Eric Sosman Guest

    Kenny McCormack wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    >> Kenny McCormack wrote:
    >>> In article <472d7d03$0$25934$>,
    >>> jacob navia <> wrote:
    >>> ...
    >>>> I do not think that C is a legacy language. And I am not "against
    >>>> history" obviously. I am against people that live in the past.
    >>> C, as defined in this newsgroup, *is* a legacy language.

    >> Is there something wrong with a legacy?
    >>
    >> leg.a.cy, n 1 : a gift by will esp. of money or other
    >> personal property : BEQUEST 2 : something received from
    >> an ancestor or predecessor or from the past
    >> -- Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary
    >>
    >> When the time comes (or came), will you (did you) refuse your
    >> inheritance?

    >
    > Heh heh. While I certainly take your meaning, the fact is that, in
    > modern computer industry vernacular, the word legacy is always a word of
    > negative connotation.


    Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader
    that's more than fifteen years old, and whose origins go back
    at least twenty-three years? Each time you launch this piece
    of legacy software, written in a legacy language, running on
    your legacy computer, do you have a negative experience?

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Nov 4, 2007
    #7
  8. jacob navia

    Richard Guest

    Eric Sosman <> writes:

    > Kenny McCormack wrote:
    >> In article <>,
    >> Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    >>> Kenny McCormack wrote:
    >>>> In article <472d7d03$0$25934$>,
    >>>> jacob navia <> wrote:
    >>>> ...
    >>>>> I do not think that C is a legacy language. And I am not "against
    >>>>> history" obviously. I am against people that live in the past.
    >>>> C, as defined in this newsgroup, *is* a legacy language.
    >>> Is there something wrong with a legacy?
    >>>
    >>> leg.a.cy, n 1 : a gift by will esp. of money or other
    >>> personal property : BEQUEST 2 : something received from
    >>> an ancestor or predecessor or from the past
    >>> -- Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary
    >>>
    >>> When the time comes (or came), will you (did you) refuse your
    >>> inheritance?

    >>
    >> Heh heh. While I certainly take your meaning, the fact is that, in
    >> modern computer industry vernacular, the word legacy is always a word of
    >> negative connotation.

    >
    > Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader
    > that's more than fifteen years old, and whose origins go back
    > at least twenty-three years? Each time you launch this piece
    > of legacy software, written in a legacy language, running on
    > your legacy computer, do you have a negative experience?


    You appear to have missed his point. The language and "common usage" of
    legacy in the SW world is to mean ancient stuff kept on for
    compatibility/budget requirements. It is most definitely a negative
    connotation. Regardless of the dictionary meaning. And, FWIW, I agree
    with you that the old stuff has its place today. People scoff at me for
    using Gnus since its "non gui". Little do they know.
    Richard, Nov 4, 2007
    #8
  9. jacob navia

    jacob navia Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > You appear to have missed his point. The language and "common usage" of
    > legacy in the SW world is to mean ancient stuff kept on for
    > compatibility/budget requirements. It is most definitely a negative
    > connotation. Regardless of the dictionary meaning. And, FWIW, I agree
    > with you that the old stuff has its place today. People scoff at me for
    > using Gnus since its "non gui". Little do they know.
    >


    1) If C is a legacy language, as Santosh and the C++
    supporters in this group propose, then what is the
    purpose of doing anything here? Nobody cares about
    C since C is doomed to extinction. Why do they
    participate in this newsgroup?

    2) In my message I wasn't arguing against history or
    against old people. I was pointing out that the
    some people in this group are living in the past.
    Living in the past is a state of refusal of change,
    of anything new, and an adoration of the "old times"
    (C89) where everything was pure and uncontaminated.

    This is common in old people but not necessarily.
    There are young people that are older than my
    grandfather. Dead before they were born.

    3) The level of discussion of those people is just
    polemic. I presented (with source code) a proposal
    for a dynamic string container. None of them
    answered anything, there were only two answers.
    Why?
    Because they are utterly unable to discuss
    technical matters beyond the endless citing
    of the C89 standard...

    4) Obviously, the same people that attack me
    about me not disclosing the source code of
    my compiler system will never discuss a
    technical proposal even if I do publish the
    source code *in this group*.




    --
    jacob navia
    jacob at jacob point remcomp point fr
    logiciels/informatique
    http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~lcc-win32
    jacob navia, Nov 4, 2007
    #9
  10. Eric Sosman <> writes:
    > Kenny McCormack wrote:

    [snip]
    >
    > Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader

    [snip]

    Eric, please stop feeding the troll.

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Looking for software development work in the San Diego area.
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
    Keith Thompson, Nov 4, 2007
    #10
  11. On Sun, 04 Nov 2007 00:01:13 +0100, in comp.lang.c , jacob navia
    <> wrote:

    >Who cares about the old times?


    Santayana anyone?

    >There is no more time to waste looking back into what was
    >"back then", filling life with too much rubbish that
    >can be safely forgotten.


    We can safely assume you have no interest in learning from past
    mistakes or successes then.

    --
    Mark McIntyre

    "Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
    Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
    by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
    --Brian Kernighan
    Mark McIntyre, Nov 4, 2007
    #11
  12. jacob navia

    Eric Sosman Guest

    jacob navia wrote:
    > [...]
    > 3) The level of discussion of those people is just
    > polemic. I presented (with source code) a proposal
    > for a dynamic string container. None of them
    > answered anything, there were only two answers.
    > Why?


    Stop right there, Jacob: Do you claim paranormal powers?
    Have you been reading everyone's mind?

    > Because they are utterly unable to discuss
    > technical matters beyond the endless citing
    > of the C89 standard...


    Silly me! I thought my reasons for abstaining from that
    particular thread were entirely different -- but since you say
    otherwise, I must, of course, have been totally mistaken. Thank
    you for opening my blind eyes to the Truth that flows from Jacob.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Nov 4, 2007
    #12
  13. jacob navia

    Eric Sosman Guest

    Keith Thompson wrote:
    > Eric Sosman <> writes:
    >> Kenny McCormack wrote:

    > [snip]
    >> Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader

    > [snip]
    >
    > Eric, please stop feeding the troll.


    And your C question was ...?

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Nov 4, 2007
    #13
  14. jacob navia

    Tor Rustad Guest

    jacob navia wrote:

    > TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!


    "Ceux qui ne connaissent pas l'Histoire sont condamnés à la revivre"

    --
    Tor < | tr i-za-h a-z>
    Tor Rustad, Nov 5, 2007
    #14
  15. Eric Sosman <> writes:
    > Keith Thompson wrote:
    >> Eric Sosman <> writes:
    >>> Kenny McCormack wrote:

    >> [snip]
    >>> Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader

    >> [snip]
    >> Eric, please stop feeding the troll.

    >
    > And your C question was ...?


    Can you please help to improve the signal-to-noise ratio of this
    newsgroup, encouraging more discussion of C, by not feeding the troll?

    --
    Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
    Looking for software development work in the San Diego area.
    "We must do something. This is something. Therefore, we must do this."
    -- Antony Jay and Jonathan Lynn, "Yes Minister"
    Keith Thompson, Nov 5, 2007
    #15
  16. In article <>,
    Keith Thompson <> wrote:
    >Eric Sosman <> writes:
    >> Keith Thompson wrote:
    >>> Eric Sosman <> writes:
    >>>> Kenny McCormack wrote:
    >>> [snip]
    >>>> Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader
    >>> [snip]
    >>> Eric, please stop feeding the troll.

    >>
    >> And your C question was ...?

    >
    >Can you please help to improve the signal-to-noise ratio of this
    >newsgroup, encouraging more discussion of C, by not feeding the troll?


    Your C question was???
    Kenny McCormack, Nov 5, 2007
    #16
  17. Eric Sosman said:

    > jacob navia wrote:
    >> [...]
    >> 3) The level of discussion of those people is just
    >> polemic. I presented (with source code) a proposal
    >> for a dynamic string container. None of them
    >> answered anything, there were only two answers.
    >> Why?

    >
    > Stop right there, Jacob: Do you claim paranormal powers?
    > Have you been reading everyone's mind?


    He hasn't been reading mine, it seems. The reason I rarely bother to say
    anything about his proposals to change the language is that I cannot take
    seriously the views on C of a man who, it is evident from his own
    postings, knows so little about the language and is so hostile to those
    who point out his mistakes.

    --
    Richard Heathfield <http://www.cpax.org.uk>
    Email: -http://www. +rjh@
    Google users: <http://www.cpax.org.uk/prg/writings/googly.php>
    "Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
    Richard Heathfield, Nov 5, 2007
    #17
  18. In article <>,
    Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    ....
    > Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader
    >that's more than fifteen years old, and whose origins go back
    >at least twenty-three years? Each time you launch this piece
    >of legacy software, written in a legacy language, running on
    >your legacy computer, do you have a negative experience?


    Who said anything about me? I'm quite happy with my choice of
    newsreader/OS/language-of-implementation-of-said-newsreader.

    I was just objecting to your seeming attempt to cloud the discussion by
    changing the commonly accepted meaning of the word "legacy" (when
    applied to computer industry languages, etc). Obviously, the word has
    more positive connotations when used in regards to inheritances and
    college admissions (this later is intended semi-ironically).
    Kenny McCormack, Nov 5, 2007
    #18
  19. jacob navia

    Eric Sosman Guest

    Kenny McCormack wrote:
    > In article <>,
    > Eric Sosman <> wrote:
    > ...
    >> Why are you using a six-year-old version of a newsreader
    >> that's more than fifteen years old, and whose origins go back
    >> at least twenty-three years? Each time you launch this piece
    >> of legacy software, written in a legacy language, running on
    >> your legacy computer, do you have a negative experience?

    >
    > Who said anything about me? I'm quite happy with my choice of
    > newsreader/OS/language-of-implementation-of-said-newsreader.


    For you, then, "legacy" makes you "happy." Gotcha;
    thanks for the clarification; out.

    --
    Eric Sosman
    lid
    Eric Sosman, Nov 6, 2007
    #19
  20. jacob navia

    Guest

    On Nov 3, 5:01 pm, jacob navia <> wrote:
    > Mnemonic means trying to remember.
    >
    > Mnemonic means making annotations that remind you.
    >
    > Speaking about mnemonic I saw this message.
    >
    > Tor Rustad wrote:
    > > Richard wrote:

    >
    > >
    > >> From some of the comments I read here, I often wonder if the people
    > >> knocking debuggers have any idea whatsoever of just what they are, how
    > >> they work and the results they can achieve.

    > >
    > > We are old. Debugging a 300.000 line monster, wasn't very practical on a
    > > VT100 terminal. Something like 24 lines of code on the screen... so a
    > > program listing was usually nearby.
    > >

    >
    > One of the problems with old people is that they tend to live in the
    > past.
    >
    > They will always start telling you their "war stories" to
    > impress in the naive youths how HARD were the old times.
    >
    > Again and again, without ever paying attention to the bored look of the
    > people around them...
    >
    > Who cares about the old times?
    >
    > TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!
    >
    > I am too old to live in the past. That was something I could afford
    > only back then... I am younger now.
    >
    > TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!
    >
    > There is no more time to waste looking back into what was
    > "back then", filling life with too much rubbish that
    > can be safely forgotten.
    >
    > This group is looking like those old people groups,
    > where each one starts the never ending stories, always repeated,
    >
    > "You remember back then?"
    >
    > When the Unisys XXX and his padding bits, 36.688 bit word
    > existed?
    >
    > Ahhh the PDP11 and the VT100 terminal... Those were the times my friend.
    >
    > The problem with age is that you tend to be swallowed by your memories.
    >
    > You loose the future, the curiosity, the opennes of wondering. You
    > become a prisoner of the past, you abhor change. C99 is way too new.
    >
    > Let's go back to C89... Those were the times my friend!
    >
    > TO HELL WITH THE OLD TIMES!



    You're misunderstanding some of the reason that historical machines
    and architectures are discussed. Obviously they have many odd
    properties, but then so do *many* (usually embedded) environments that
    C is used in. These days, embedded applications may well be the
    predominant use of C. So why not refer to some architectural quirk of
    the DSP123-ABC-xyz instead of some oddness of the PDP-11? Because
    while we all know what the PDP-11 was, hardly anyone knows anything
    about the DSP123-ABC-xyz.
    , Nov 6, 2007
    #20
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