Mr. know it all Pugh

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Richard, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. Richard

    Richard Guest

    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    <TABLE BORDER="1">
    <TR>
    <TD>blah</TD>
    <TD>blah blah</TD>
    </TR>
    <table>
    <tr><td>inner table</td></tr>
    </table>

    <TR>
    <TD>blah blah blah</TD>
    <TD>blah blah blah</TD>
    </TR>
    </TABLE>

    Run that one through your smart ass brain and tell me exactly what you get.

    1.) Line 24, column 6: document type does not allow element "TABLE" here

    While OTOH, this version validates.

    <TABLE BORDER="1">
    <TR>
    <TD>1</TD>
    <TD>2</TD>
    </TR>
    <TR>
    <TD>3</TD>
    <TD>4</TD>
    </TR>
    <tbody>
    <tr><td>inner table</td></tr>
    </tbody>
    </TABLE>

    Care to comment on the errors of the validation routine?
    You say the use of tbody is not valid, while the valdiator apparently
    disagrees with you.
     
    Richard, Feb 25, 2005
    #1
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  2. Richard

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "Richard" <Anonymous@127.001> wrote:

    ><!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
    ><TABLE BORDER="1">
    ><TR>
    > <TD>blah</TD>
    > <TD>blah blah</TD>
    ></TR>
    ><table>
    ><tr><td>inner table</td></tr>
    ></table>
    >
    ><TR>
    > <TD>blah blah blah</TD>
    > <TD>blah blah blah</TD>
    ></TR>
    ></TABLE>
    >
    >Run that one through your smart ass brain and tell me exactly what you get.
    >
    >1.) Line 24, column 6: document type does not allow element "TABLE" here


    Quite right. table can not be a direct descendent of table. The inner
    table needs to be inside a cell.

    >While OTOH, this version validates.
    >
    ><TABLE BORDER="1">
    ><TR>
    > <TD>1</TD>
    > <TD>2</TD>
    ></TR>
    ><TR>
    > <TD>3</TD>
    > <TD>4</TD>
    ></TR>
    ><tbody>
    ><tr><td>inner table</td></tr>


    No, that is not an inner table, it's merely a grouping of rows in the
    single table. Try giving that inner table a larger number of rows
    compared with the 'parent' table. OIt would be a bit odd for an inner
    table to increase the number of columns in the parent table...

    ></tbody>
    ></TABLE>


    That's perfectly okay. You have two tbody elements, only one of which
    is marked up with explicit tags. What you have here is exactly the
    same as

    <TABLE BORDER="1">
    <tbody>
    <TR>
    <TD>1</TD>
    <TD>2</TD>
    </TR>
    <TR>
    <TD>3</TD>
    <TD>4</TD>
    </TR>
    </tbody>
    <tbody>
    <tr><td>second tbody</td></tr>
    </tbody>
    </TABLE>

    Every table contains an implicit tbody element. An author can add
    additional tbodys (and theads and tfoots) if they like.

    Read the HTML spec if you doubt me.
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-TBODY

    >Care to comment on the errors of the validation routine?


    No. There are no errors in the validator with respect to the two
    examples you've given. The validator accurately reports the errors or
    lack of them in the code.

    >You say the use of tbody is not valid,


    I never said that.
    <url:http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.html/msg/dacd91bf157f670d>
    I said that your previous example was missing a required sub-element
    of <tbody>. You had a <tbody> with no <tr> elements within, same as
    you had <table>s with no <tr>s in your first example.
    <url:http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.html/msg/9c82ccaa8b966c1d>

    >while the valdiator apparently disagrees with you.


    No it doesn't. You're just too stupid to understand what's being
    discussed.

    Steve


    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #2
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  3. Richard

    Steve Pugh Guest

    "Richard" <Anonymous@127.001> wrote:
    [snip the usual rubbish]

    Okay, just posted the technical answer. The shorter, non-technical
    answer is that I'd much rather be a 'Mr know it all' than a 'Mr know
    nothing' like Richard.

    Steve

    --
    "My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
    I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor

    Steve Pugh <> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
     
    Steve Pugh, Feb 25, 2005
    #3
  4. Richard

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Richard wrote:

    <snipped pointless stuff />

    Richard, you REALLY need to go on an HTML course, or sit back and think
    about how HTML is structured. You keep making the same newbie
    assumptions and mistakes and then start finger waving when you are
    blatantly WRONG. If you dont know something, you should comment, because
    you end up making yourself look like a real dick.

    Go back and re-read the posts, and take a look at the W3C specs for
    tables. You'll understand what Steve was talking about.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #4
  5. Richard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when SpaceGirl
    <> wrote:

    >Richard, you REALLY need to go on an HTML course,


    Why make some poor tutor suffer ? Do you really think he'd learn
    anything ? This is a guy who is stupid, ignorant and refuses to be
    told anything even when it's spelled out very simply for him. A
    course might fix the ignorant part, but it can do little for the
    others.
     
    Andy Dingley, Feb 25, 2005
    #5
  6. Richard

    Richard Guest

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:47:20 +0000 Andy Dingley wrote:

    > It was somewhere outside Barstow when SpaceGirl
    > <> wrote:


    >>Richard, you REALLY need to go on an HTML course,


    > Why make some poor tutor suffer ? Do you really think he'd learn
    > anything ? This is a guy who is stupid, ignorant and refuses to be
    > told anything even when it's spelled out very simply for him. A
    > course might fix the ignorant part, but it can do little for the
    > others.



    I at least run my stuff through the validator so I know what's proper and
    what isn't.
    When the validator says an item is not allowed here, I find out why and what
    should be proper.
    You call me stupid, but when someone wants certain help asking about an item
    which doesn't suit your fancy, you jump all over his case.
    I have learned how to stay away from tables except when needed.
    And if you have learned everything there is to know, why are you here?
     
    Richard, Feb 25, 2005
    #6
  7. Richard

    SpaceGirl Guest

    Richard wrote:
    > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:47:20 +0000 Andy Dingley wrote:
    >
    > I at least run my stuff through the validator so I know what's proper and
    > what isn't.
    > When the validator says an item is not allowed here, I find out why and what
    > should be proper.
    > You call me stupid, but when someone wants certain help asking about an item
    > which doesn't suit your fancy, you jump all over his case.
    > I have learned how to stay away from tables except when needed.


    You've got to be careful relying on the validators when you're not up to
    speed with HTML in the first place. The validator often gets things
    wrong, thanks to ONE broken tag causing a dozen following tags to also
    be wrong. Which is the real error? If you dont know the structure of
    HTML you may spend hours trying to fix something that isn't broken
    because of some really simple mistake elsewhere. It's just good advice
    that's all. Take the time to learn HTML properly before giving invalid
    or bad advice. You dont have the experience yet.

    --


    x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

    # lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
    # remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
     
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2005
    #7
  8. Richard

    Andy Dingley Guest

    It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Richard" <Anonymous@127.001>
    wrote:

    >I at least run my stuff through the validator so I know what's proper and
    >what isn't.


    Richard, you use a validator in much the same way that my cat uses a
    keyboard. You run up and down it and letters come out, but that
    doesn't mean you have any real understanding of what's happening.

    >When the validator says an item is not allowed here, I find out why


    No you don't, you very clearly don't have a clue. Your
    misunderstanding of <tbody> as some sort of "embeddable table" is
    laughable.

    >You call me stupid, but when someone wants certain help asking about an item
    >which doesn't suit your fancy, you jump all over his case.


    _Very_ rarely do I "jump all over someone's case" if they ask for help
    in a technical newsgroup. They have to do something particularly
    fsckwitted to trigger that. But you seem to manage on about 80% of
    your inane witterings.

    >And if you have learned everything there is to know, why are you here?


    To invent more of it.


    --
    Free the Sudan One !
     
    Andy Dingley, Feb 25, 2005
    #8
  9. Richard wrote:

    [snip]

    > I at least run my stuff through the validator so I know what's
    > proper and what isn't.


    Automated validation is no substitute for /knowing/ HTML. The
    validator should be used to prevent simple mistakes, much like a
    spelling or grammar checker. You should already know "what's proper
    and what isn't".

    It is important to realise that a validator only checks the structure
    and syntax of your mark-up. A document must also conform to the prose
    of the specification for it to be considered valid.

    [snip]

    > [...] but when someone wants certain help asking about an item
    > which doesn't suit your fancy, you jump all over his case.


    Would you mind getting over this aggression you perceive. If someone
    uses an element incorrectly, they'll be told so and what to do instead.

    The only aggression I've witnessed in situations like this is where
    the OP, or someone else with a contrary opinion, starts to vehemently
    challenge the advice complaining about responding posters failing to
    "answer the question", or something else just as lame, just because
    the answer isn't what they wanted. If a poster acts with hostility,
    they're going to receive the same in kind.

    [snip]

    > And if you [Andy] have learned everything there is to know, [...]


    No-one knows everything.

    Mike

    --
    Michael Winter
    Replace ".invalid" with ".uk" to reply by e-mail.
     
    Michael Winter, Feb 26, 2005
    #9
  10. Richard

    saz Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > It was somewhere outside Barstow when SpaceGirl
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Richard, you REALLY need to go on an HTML course,

    >
    > Why make some poor tutor suffer ? Do you really think he'd learn
    > anything ? This is a guy who is stupid, ignorant and refuses to be
    > told anything even when it's spelled out very simply for him. A
    > course might fix the ignorant part, but it can do little for the
    > others.
    >
    >
    >

    Why does anyone respond to this Richard bozo? I killfiled him weeks
    ago. Ignore him, he'll go away. Respond, and he will continue to post.
     
    saz, Feb 26, 2005
    #10
  11. saz wrote:

    > Why does anyone respond to this Richard bozo? I killfiled him
    > weeks ago. Ignore him, he'll go away. Respond, and he will
    > continue to post.


    Mostly, the posts are for telling the OPs that his advice is crap.

    Someone has to keep the newbies safe from him.

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Feb 26, 2005
    #11
  12. Richard wrote:

    > I at least run my stuff through the validator so I know what's proper and
    > what isn't.


    I have a spelling checker.
    It came with my PC.
    It plane lee marks four my revue
    Miss steaks aye can knot see.

    Eye ran this poem threw it.
    Your sure real glad two no.
    Its very polished in its weigh,
    My checker tolled me sew.

    - http://people.biola.edu/faculty/petes/linguistics/Spell_checker_poem.cfm

    --
    David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    Home is where the ~/.bashrc is
     
    David Dorward, Feb 26, 2005
    #12
  13. Richard

    Toby Inkster Guest

    saz wrote:

    > Ignore [Richard], he'll go away.


    We tried that and it didn't work.

    But as BTS, someone needs to keep the newbies safe from him.

    --
    Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
    Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
     
    Toby Inkster, Feb 26, 2005
    #13
  14. Toby Inkster wrote:
    > saz wrote:


    >> Ignore [Richard], he'll go away.


    > We tried that and it didn't work.


    > But as BTS, someone needs to keep the newbies safe from him.


    BTS?

    --
    BTS
     
    Blinky the Shark, Feb 26, 2005
    #14
  15. Blinky the Shark wrote:

    > Toby Inkster wrote:
    >
    >> saz wrote:

    >
    >>> Ignore [Richard], he'll go away.

    >
    >> We tried that and it didn't work.

    >
    >> But as BTS [said], someone needs to keep the newbies safe from him.

    >
    > BTS?


    That would be me ... <g>

    --
    -bts
    -This space intentionally left blank.
     
    Beauregard T. Shagnasty, Feb 26, 2005
    #15
  16. Richard

    saz Guest

    In article <>, lid
    says...
    > saz wrote:
    >
    > > Why does anyone respond to this Richard bozo? I killfiled him
    > > weeks ago. Ignore him, he'll go away. Respond, and he will
    > > continue to post.

    >
    > Mostly, the posts are for telling the OPs that his advice is crap.
    >
    > Someone has to keep the newbies safe from him.
    >


    Okay, I'll go along with that.

    I'll whitelist him again, I could use a laugh every now and then.
     
    saz, Feb 26, 2005
    #16
  17. Richard

    Jan Faerber Guest

    Richard ... output:

    <title>Re: Mr. know it all Pugh</td>

    I don't know anybody else who would be capable to explain html in such an
    excellent way.



    --
    Jan

    http://html.janfaerber.com
     
    Jan Faerber, Feb 26, 2005
    #17
  18. Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:
    > Blinky the Shark wrote:


    >> Toby Inkster wrote:


    >>> saz wrote:


    >>>> Ignore [Richard], he'll go away.


    >>> We tried that and it didn't work.


    >>> But as BTS [said], someone needs to keep the newbies safe from him.


    >> BTS?


    > That would be me ... <g>


    Ah! Between that and my being another BTS and the "said" up there not
    being there in the post to which I replied, things were getting
    strange. :)

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
     
    Blinky the Shark, Feb 26, 2005
    #18
  19. Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

    > Blinky the Shark wrote:


    >> Toby Inkster wrote:


    >>> saz wrote:


    >>>> Ignore [Richard], he'll go away.


    >>> We tried that and it didn't work.


    >>> But as BTS [said], someone needs to keep the newbies safe from him.


    >> BTS?


    > That would be me ... <g>


    ADD: And trying to decipher it, first time around, I went through
    four pages of "BTS"s on an acronym-finder site, and came up dry for
    this context. :)

    --
    Blinky Linux Registered User 297263
    Who has implemented Usenet Solution #45933:
    Now killing all posts originating at Google Groups
     
    Blinky the Shark, Feb 26, 2005
    #19
  20. Richard

    Toby Inkster Guest

    Toby Inkster, Feb 27, 2005
    #20
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