nesting instead of id ing??

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Tim W, Feb 5, 2013.

  1. Tim W

    Tim W Guest

    I am looking at the site template here:
    http://www.html5-templates.co.uk/archive/temps/beadysite/
    The Nav menu is in the html like this:

    <ul>
    <li>
    <h2>Menu </h2>
    <ul>
    <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">blogs</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">arcade</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">gallery</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">links</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">contact us</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">forums</a></li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    </ul>

    And the Nav has no id but is selected in the css as
    #sidebar li li {.... }

    I realise the futility of sometimes looking for purpose and design in a
    world in which meaning is almost always elusive but here is my question:
    Is it normal or common this nesting of lists instead of giving them a
    class or an id? I have never seen it before. And Why?

    Tim W
    Tim W, Feb 5, 2013
    #1
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  2. Tim W

    richard Guest

    On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 22:08:29 +0000, Tim W wrote:

    > I am looking at the site template here:
    > http://www.html5-templates.co.uk/archive/temps/beadysite/
    > The Nav menu is in the html like this:
    >
    > <ul>
    > <li>
    > <h2>Menu </h2>
    > <ul>
    > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">blogs</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">arcade</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">gallery</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">links</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">contact us</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">forums</a></li>
    > </ul>
    > </li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > And the Nav has no id but is selected in the css as
    > #sidebar li li {.... }
    >
    > I realise the futility of sometimes looking for purpose and design in a
    > world in which meaning is almost always elusive but here is my question:
    > Is it normal or common this nesting of lists instead of giving them a
    > class or an id? I have never seen it before. And Why?
    >
    > Tim W


    this is rather common.
    the container for the list has the id of #sidebar.
    the css now defines further by stating that only the second level of <li>
    should have this format.
    You might also see something like #diebar li {}, which would give the first
    level of <li> an entirely different format.

    If you had another nested list in another container, this css styling
    method would have no effect on that list.
    richard, Feb 6, 2013
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Tim W

    TimW Guest

    On Wednesday, February 6, 2013 1:47:26 AM UTC, richard wrote:
    > On Tue, 05 Feb 2013 22:08:29 +0000, Tim W wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > I am looking at the site template here:

    >
    > > http://www.html5-templates.co.uk/archive/temps/beadysite/

    >
    > > The Nav menu is in the html like this:

    >
    > >

    >
    > > <ul>

    >
    > > <li>

    >
    > > <h2>Menu </h2>

    >
    > > <ul>

    >
    > > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">blogs</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">arcade</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">gallery</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">links</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">contact us</a></li>

    >
    > > <li><a href="#">forums</a></li>

    >
    > > </ul>

    >
    > > </li>

    >
    > > </ul>

    >
    > >

    >
    > > And the Nav has no id but is selected in the css as

    >
    > > #sidebar li li {.... }

    >
    > >

    >
    > > I realise the futility of sometimes looking for purpose and design in a

    >
    > > world in which meaning is almost always elusive but here is my question:

    >
    > > Is it normal or common this nesting of lists instead of giving them a

    >
    > > class or an id? I have never seen it before. And Why?

    >
    > >

    >
    > > Tim W

    >
    >
    >
    > this is rather common.
    >
    > the container for the list has the id of #sidebar.
    >
    > the css now defines further by stating that only the second level of <li>
    >
    > should have this format.
    >
    > You might also see something like #diebar li {}, which would give the first
    >
    > level of <li> an entirely different format.
    >
    >
    >
    > If you had another nested list in another container, this css styling
    >
    > method would have no effect on that list.


    My news server has conked out again. I posted the same message three tmes because I couldn't see it appear. Now I can't really get involved in any discussion except by google. Apologies, and thanks for the reply

    Tim W
    TimW, Feb 11, 2013
    #3
  4. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/5/2013 5:08 PM, Tim W wrote:
    > I am looking at the site template here:
    > http://www.html5-templates.co.uk/archive/temps/beadysite/
    > The Nav menu is in the html like this:
    >
    > <ul>
    > <li>
    > <h2>Menu </h2>
    > <ul>
    > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">blogs</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">arcade</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">gallery</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">links</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">contact us</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">forums</a></li>
    > </ul>
    > </li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > And the Nav has no id but is selected in the css as
    > #sidebar li li {.... }
    >
    > I realise the futility of sometimes looking for purpose and design in a
    > world in which meaning is almost always elusive but here is my question:
    > Is it normal or common this nesting of lists instead of giving them a
    > class or an id? I have never seen it before. And Why?


    It is all content within (nested in) a DIV ID'd as sidebar.

    #sidebar li li {..rules..}
    Says:
    The rule(s) shall apply to the li which is a child of another li, which
    in turn is a child of the id ID'd as sidebar.
    (nested in = child of = descendant of)

    All CSS 2.1 selectora:
    <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/selector.html>

    Specific to your question - descendant-selector:
    <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/selector.html#descendant-selectors>

    --
    Gus
    Gus Richter, Feb 11, 2013
    #4
  5. Tim W

    Tim W Guest

    On 11/02/2013 17:13, Gus Richter wrote:
    > On 2/5/2013 5:08 PM, Tim W wrote:
    >> I am looking at the site template here:
    >> http://www.html5-templates.co.uk/archive/temps/beadysite/
    >> The Nav menu is in the html like this:
    >>
    >> <ul>
    >> <li>
    >> <h2>Menu </h2>
    >> <ul>
    >> <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">blogs</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">arcade</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">gallery</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">links</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">contact us</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">forums</a></li>
    >> </ul>
    >> </li>
    >> </ul>
    >>
    >> And the Nav has no id but is selected in the css as
    >> #sidebar li li {.... }
    >>
    >> I realise the futility of sometimes looking for purpose and design in a
    >> world in which meaning is almost always elusive but here is my question:
    >> Is it normal or common this nesting of lists instead of giving them a
    >> class or an id? I have never seen it before. And Why?

    >
    > It is all content within (nested in) a DIV ID'd as sidebar.
    >
    > #sidebar li li {..rules..}
    > Says:
    > The rule(s) shall apply to the li which is a child of another li, which
    > in turn is a child of the id ID'd as sidebar.
    > (nested in = child of = descendant of)
    >
    > All CSS 2.1 selectora:
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/selector.html>
    >
    > Specific to your question - descendant-selector:
    > <http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/selector.html#descendant-selectors>
    >


    Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of just
    id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    can just call it what it is?

    Is there any reason?

    Tim w
    Tim W, Feb 12, 2013
    #5
  6. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/11/2013 7:32 PM, Tim W wrote:
    > Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    > see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of just
    > id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    > can just call it what it is?


    Show how you would do it.

    --
    Gus
    Gus Richter, Feb 12, 2013
    #6
  7. Tim W

    Tim W Guest

    On 12/02/2013 03:23, Gus Richter wrote:
    > On 2/11/2013 7:32 PM, Tim W wrote:
    >> Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    >> see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of just
    >> id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    >> can just call it what it is?

    >
    > Show how you would do it.
    >


    Instead of:

    <ul>
    <li>
    <h2>Menu </h2>
    <ul>
    <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    </ul>

    Why not:

    <h2>Menu </h2>
    <ul id="menu">
    <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    </ul>

    which istm is easier to understand, shorter, will be simpler to find in
    the css and doesn't include a list of one item
    Tim W, Feb 12, 2013
    #7
  8. Tim W wrote:
    > On 12/02/2013 03:23, Gus Richter wrote:
    >> On 2/11/2013 7:32 PM, Tim W wrote:
    >>> Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    >>> see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of just
    >>> id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    >>> can just call it what it is?

    >>
    >> Show how you would do it.
    >>

    >
    > Instead of:
    >
    > <ul>
    > <li>
    > <h2>Menu </h2>
    > <ul>
    > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    > </ul>
    > </li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > Why not:
    >
    > <h2>Menu </h2>
    > <ul id="menu">
    > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > which istm is easier to understand, shorter, will be simpler to find in
    > the css and doesn't include a list of one item
    >
    >



    Simple, because like a lot of "pro" templates it's not very *pro*. Case
    in point the <br /> following the UL block element.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 12, 2013
    #8
  9. Tim W

    Tim W Guest

    On 12/02/2013 13:17, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Tim W wrote:
    >> On 12/02/2013 03:23, Gus Richter wrote:
    >>> On 2/11/2013 7:32 PM, Tim W wrote:
    >>>> Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    >>>> see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of
    >>>> just
    >>>> id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    >>>> can just call it what it is?
    >>>
    >>> Show how you would do it.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Instead of:
    >>
    >> <ul>
    >> <li>
    >> <h2>Menu </h2>
    >> <ul>
    >> <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    >> </ul>
    >> </li>
    >> </ul>
    >>
    >> Why not:
    >>
    >> <h2>Menu </h2>
    >> <ul id="menu">
    >> <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    >> </ul>
    >>
    >> which istm is easier to understand, shorter, will be simpler to find in
    >> the css and doesn't include a list of one item
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > Simple, because like a lot of "pro" templates it's not very *pro*. Case
    > in point the <br /> following the UL block element.
    >


    I presume you are saying it's neater to separate elements with css than
    by just bunging in a <br/> ? I am sure you are right but it's a finer
    point really. This template was a bit of a muddle when I came to look at
    it. Classes in the html not mentioned in the css, and classes and ids in
    the css which weren't in the html, missing images, bits of redundant
    junk code presumably from a previous use. But it's free.

    Tim ?w
    Tim W, Feb 12, 2013
    #9
  10. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/12/2013 6:55 AM, Tim W wrote:
    > On 12/02/2013 03:23, Gus Richter wrote:
    >> On 2/11/2013 7:32 PM, Tim W wrote:
    >>> Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    >>> see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of just
    >>> id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    >>> can just call it what it is?

    >>
    >> Show how you would do it.
    >>

    >
    > Instead of:
    >
    > <ul>
    > <li>
    > <h2>Menu </h2>
    > <ul>
    > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    > </ul>
    > </li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > Why not:
    >
    > <h2>Menu </h2>
    > <ul id="menu">
    > <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    > <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    > </ul>
    >
    > which istm is easier to understand, shorter, will be simpler to find in
    > the css and doesn't include a list of one item


    I understand now what you meant. Let's assume that he started off as you
    did and then decided that he wanted the extra white space after the h2.
    Since there are three other h2 for which he gave zero margins, he would
    have to give the Menu h2 an id in order to cancel and/or readjust to his
    liking. He may then have decided that it would be just as simple/handy
    to use the h2 in another list item. There are many ways to skin a cat
    and as long as it works ...... but I get your point.

    --
    Gus
    Gus Richter, Feb 12, 2013
    #10
  11. Tim W wrote:
    > On 12/02/2013 13:17, Jonathan N. Little wrote:


    >> Simple, because like a lot of "pro" templates it's not very *pro*. Case
    >> in point the <br /> following the UL block element.
    >>

    >
    > I presume you are saying it's neater to separate elements with css than
    > by just bunging in a <br/> ?


    Yes and also makes more sense. <br> means break line but there is NO
    line to break, it is preceded but a BLOCK element. If you need to
    adjusted the top or bottom margins of a block then change the CSS
    margin-top and/or margin-bottom of the said block element.

    > I am sure you are right but it's a finer
    > point really.


    The finer point is maintainability. If you space out for example
    paragraphs using trailing BRs (I have seen this)

    <p>Sample text...</p>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <p>More sample text...</p>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>
    <p>And more sample text...</p>
    <br>
    <br>
    <br>

    And then your client says that they you would half the distance between
    each paragraphs and you have done this on an umpteen-paged site, now
    that you do you?

    In contrast via CSS stylesheet;

    p {bottom-margin: 5em; }

    With markup:

    <p>Sample text...</p>
    <p>More sample text...</p>
    <p>And more sample tex
    t...</p>

    And to make the change edit one file and in place
    p {bottom-margin: 2.5em; }

    Done.


    > This template was a bit of a muddle when I came to look at
    > it. Classes in the html not mentioned in the css, and classes and ids in
    > the css which weren't in the html, missing images, bits of redundant
    > junk code presumably from a previous use. But it's free.



    Again 'a lot of "pro" templates it's not very *pro*.' There is just no
    substitute for knowing what you are doing, except hiring somebody else
    that does know what they are doing.


    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 12, 2013
    #11
  12. Gus Richter wrote:
    > On 2/12/2013 6:55 AM, Tim W wrote:
    >> On 12/02/2013 03:23, Gus Richter wrote:
    >>> On 2/11/2013 7:32 PM, Tim W wrote:
    >>>> Yeah I can see how it works and i can see that it does work but I can't
    >>>> see why you would ever want to select the menu like that instead of
    >>>> just
    >>>> id-ing it. Why declare a list inside alist which isn't a list when you
    >>>> can just call it what it is?
    >>>
    >>> Show how you would do it.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Instead of:
    >>
    >> <ul>
    >> <li>
    >> <h2>Menu </h2>
    >> <ul>
    >> <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    >> </ul>
    >> </li>
    >> </ul>
    >>
    >> Why not:
    >>
    >> <h2>Menu </h2>
    >> <ul id="menu">
    >> <li><a href="index.html">home</a></li>
    >> <li><a href="#">about us</a></li>
    >> </ul>
    >>
    >> which istm is easier to understand, shorter, will be simpler to find in
    >> the css and doesn't include a list of one item

    >
    > I understand now what you meant. Let's assume that he started off as you
    > did and then decided that he wanted the extra white space after the h2.
    > Since there are three other h2 for which he gave zero margins, he would
    > have to give the Menu h2 an id in order to cancel and/or readjust to his
    > liking. He may then have decided that it would be just as simple/handy
    > to use the h2 in another list item. There are many ways to skin a cat
    > and as long as it works ...... but I get your point.
    >


    The only other reason other than incompetence (a bit strong a word but
    the rest of the template displays amateur-hour errors) would be submenus
    or items within the "list"

    <ul id="sidebar">
    <li>
    <h2>Menu</h2>
    <ul>
    <li>Menu item</li>
    <li>Menu item</li>
    <li>Menu item</li>
    <li>Menu item</li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    <li>
    <h2>Features</h2>
    <ul>
    <li>Featured item</li>
    <li>Featured item</li>
    <li>Featured item</li>
    <li>Featured item</li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    <li>
    <h2>Adverts ?</h2>
    <ul>
    <li>Ad</li>
    <li>Ad</li>
    <li>Ad</li>
    <li>Ad</li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    </ul>


    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 12, 2013
    #12
  13. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/12/2013 12:36 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > The only other reason other than incompetence (a bit strong a word but
    > the rest of the template displays amateur-hour errors) would be submenus
    > or items within the "list"


    Agreed.
    Here are some of my thoughts since the page professes to be a template
    for HTML5:

    1. It uses XHTML construct, whereas it serves the page up as text/html,
    2. it uses <header> and <footer> only, whereas <nav>, <section>,
    <article> and <aside> should have been used as well for a "template".
    The <main> element is probably too new for this template.
    3. although the type attribute used for stylesheet links such as
    type="text/plain" or type="text/css" may be used, the latter is not
    necessary in HTML5 since it is understood to be text/css.
    4. although in HTML5 the values are not required to be quoted, it is
    required in some instances and therefore it is good practice to quote
    all values such as in the template <html lang="en"> and <meta
    charset="UTF-8"> are not quoted whereas others in the template are.

    I note that the <meta charset=UTF-8> is the first item in <head>
    which is as it should be in order to avoid a security vulnerability.

    This is what I consider as a "barebones" template for HTML5:

    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html lang="en">
    <head>
    <meta charset="utf-8">
    <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" >
    <style>
    /* Rules for Embedded stylesheet */
    </style>
    </head>
    <body>
    <!-- This is an HTML5 Template -->
    This is an HTML5 Template!
    </body>
    </html>

    --
    Gus
    Gus Richter, Feb 12, 2013
    #13
  14. Gus Richter wrote:
    > <!DOCTYPE html>
    > <html lang="en">
    > <head>
    > <meta charset="utf-8">
    > <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    > <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" >


    <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" />

    ;-)

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, Feb 12, 2013
    #14
  15. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/12/2013 4:25 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Gus Richter wrote:
    >> <!DOCTYPE html>
    >> <html lang="en">
    >> <head>
    >> <meta charset="utf-8">
    >> <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    >> <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" >

    >
    > <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" />
    Gus Richter, Feb 12, 2013
    #15
  16. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/12/2013 4:25 PM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
    > Gus Richter wrote:
    >> <!DOCTYPE html>
    >> <html lang="en">
    >> <head>
    >> <meta charset="utf-8">
    >> <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    >> <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" >

    >
    > <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" />


    Served as text/html (sorry about the accidental space):
    <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css">

    --
    Gus ;-)
    Gus Richter, Feb 12, 2013
    #16
  17. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    On 2/12/2013 3:28 PM, Gus Richter wrote:
    > This is what I consider as a "barebones" template for HTML5:


    Added script element:

    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html lang="en">
    <head>
    <meta charset="utf-8">
    <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" >
    <style>
    /* Rules for Embedded stylesheet */
    </style>
    <script>
    // Javascript is the default
    </script>
    </head>
    <body>
    <!-- This is an HTML5 Template -->
    This is an HTML5 Template!
    </body>
    </html>

    --
    Gus
    Gus Richter, Feb 13, 2013
    #17
  18. HTML5 templates

    2013-02-13 12:48, Gus Richter wrote under Subject
    "Re: nesting instead of id ing??":

    > On 2/12/2013 3:28 PM, Gus Richter wrote:
    >> This is what I consider as a "barebones" template for HTML5:

    >
    > Added script element:
    >
    > <!DOCTYPE html>
    > <html lang="en">
    > <head>
    > <meta charset="utf-8">
    > <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    > <link rel="stylesheet" href="whatever.css" >
    > <style>
    > /* Rules for Embedded stylesheet */
    > </style>
    > <script>
    > // Javascript is the default
    > </script>
    > </head>
    > <body>
    > <!-- This is an HTML5 Template -->
    > This is an HTML5 Template!
    > </body>
    > </html>


    There's a lot one could say about this, but I will only make two
    comments, in rather opposite directions:

    If you want to have good general template, consider reading the HTML5
    Boilerplate template from http://html5boilerplate.com and, once you have
    understood its bits and pieces, create your custom version of it. It
    will handle many quirks and oddities in browsers, some of which might be
    of little practical importance, but why not take a safe route when it is
    so easy?

    On the other hand, if you want a minimal HTML document for an "HTML5
    application", here it is:

    <!doctype html><script src=app.js></script>

    It doesn't validate, due to lack of <title> element, but it works. You
    can make app.js add a <title> element, as well as any other content in
    the document and any <style> element or <link> element. The <!doctype
    html> string is needed to put browsers into Standards Mode (in
    JavaScript, the variable that tells the browser mode is read-only, and
    so is the variable containing the doctype string).

    I'm not recommending the minimal HTML for an HTML5 application for any
    other purpose than making a point about the role of HTML tags in "HTML5
    applications". You really need just two tags. You will need *elements*
    of course, but you can create them in JavaScript without using any tags.

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 13, 2013
    #18
  19. Tim W

    Gus Richter Guest

    Re: HTML5 templates

    On 2/13/2013 6:44 AM, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

    > There's a lot one could say about this


    Not so, if one understands what is presented.

    > If you want to have good general template, consider reading the HTML5
    > Boilerplate template from http://html5boilerplate.com and, once you have
    > understood its bits and pieces, create your custom version of it. It
    > will handle many quirks and oddities in browsers, some of which might be
    > of little practical importance, but why not take a safe route when it is
    > so easy?


    The "HTML5 Boilerplate" is excellent and I'm familiar with it (as well
    as with Modernizr and Normalize.css), even though you suggest that I
    need to understand its bits and pieces. Granted that I am weak in areas
    which don't relate to my needs. Who isn't? Its basic structure as
    presented in its documentation is NOT a basic structure. Compare it to
    mine, if you please. Your easy and safe route is not comparable to my
    "Template" which is a simple, *basic* structure of an HTML5 document - a
    starting point of understanding and sufficient for a simple document.
    The HTML5 Boilerplate goes beyond my HTML5 Template.

    Two demos with the document structured using my Template as a guide:
    <http://tinyurl.com/d6bgsls>
    <http://tinyurl.com/6nhz37q>

    How would you see HTML Boilerplate making it safe and in an easy way for
    any of the two demos?

    Coming back to your first quoted portion above, what would be a few
    examples of your "There's a lot one could say about this" for the two demos?

    > On the other hand, if you want a minimal HTML document for an "HTML5
    > application", here it is:


    I am not interested in a minimal version. Somewhere, either in this
    thread or elsewhere, I pointed out that I recommend to quote values,
    although it is optional. In fact I recommend to use all optional items.
    My "Template", which I submitted, simply demonstrates the basic
    structure for an HTML5 document/site to be served as text/html. It's
    easy to copy as a start for a new document and delete portions not needed.

    --
    Gus
    Gus Richter, Feb 13, 2013
    #19
  20. Re: HTML5 templates

    2013-02-13 15:53, Gus Richter wrote:

    > Coming back to your first quoted portion above, what would be a few
    > examples of your "There's a lot one could say about this" for the two
    > demos?


    A template should be evaluated as a template, not on the basis of some
    creations based on it. And I'm not sure whether it is useful to analyze
    your template, but on request, here are three comments that first came
    into my mind:

    1) <html lang="en">
    A template should not have a particular language code wired in. There
    are far too many web pages that claim to be in English but aren't,
    either because they were based on wrong templates or because some
    authoring software spits out lang="en" no matter what.

    2) <head>
    Not needed, and does not serve a useful purpose.

    3) <title>Template for HTML5</title>
    No reason to put any text inside the element. It serves no purpose, it
    just needs to be erased when actually using the template, and there
    *are* people who just won't change the text.

    4) <style>
    Embedded style sheets should be avoided. There are situations where they
    are a comfortable tool, but a template should not encourage the use of
    embedded CSS.

    5) <script>
    Linked JavaScript files should be preferred. And if embedded JS is used,
    it should often go the end of the body, or otherwise inside the body,
    not in the head. (Think about simply referring to elements by their ids
    in straight code not wrapped in functions.)

    --
    Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
    Jukka K. Korpela, Feb 13, 2013
    #20
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