Netbeans Vs Eclipse platforms

Discussion in 'Java' started by mia.news.speakeasy.net, Nov 9, 2003.

  1. Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!

    Hi all.
    I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
    I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
    developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
    I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
    for desktop applications.

    The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
    platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better? and
    which one is likely to outlive the other?

    thanks
    hilz
     
    mia.news.speakeasy.net, Nov 9, 2003
    #1
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  2. mia.news.speakeasy.net wrote:
    > Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!
    >
    > Hi all.
    > I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
    > I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
    > developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
    > I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
    > for desktop applications.
    >
    > The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
    > platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better? and
    > which one is likely to outlive the other?
    >
    > thanks
    > hilz
    >
    >



    Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
    *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
    created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
    using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
    so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.

    --
    John
     
    John O'Conner, Nov 10, 2003
    #2
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  3. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    David Segall Guest

    John O'Conner <> wrote:

    >mia.news.speakeasy.net wrote:
    >> Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!
    >>
    >> Hi all.
    >> I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
    >> I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
    >> developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
    >> I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
    >> for desktop applications.
    >>
    >> The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
    >> platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better? and
    >> which one is likely to outlive the other?
    >>
    >> thanks
    >> hilz
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
    >*want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
    >created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
    >using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
    >so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.

    That's true of the Java Class Libraries in general and I agree that
    locating the part you do want is a challenge. Fortunately, "Netbeans
    The Definitive Guide" (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/netbeans/)
    provides an excellent user manual for NetBeans and a thorough
    introduction to the beans. There are links to some diverse
    applications built on NetBeans here:
    http://www.netbeans.org/about/third-party.html.
     
    David Segall, Nov 10, 2003
    #3
  4. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    David Segall Guest

    "mia.news.speakeasy.net" <> wrote:

    >Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!
    >
    >Hi all.
    >I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
    >I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
    >developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
    >I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
    >for desktop applications.
    >
    >The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
    >platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better?

    I think you have to choose between the GUI widgets. Eclipse uses SWT
    and NetBeans uses standard Swing. I'm not capable of conducting the
    arguments on either side.
    >which one is likely to outlive the other?

    I suspect that IBM will outlast Sun but I would not choose on that
    basis.
    >thanks
    >hilz
    >
     
    David Segall, Nov 10, 2003
    #4
  5. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    hilz Guest

    > Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
    > *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
    > created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
    > using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
    > so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.
    >
    > --
    > John
    >


    I have not decided to use it yet. i am just planning to learn how it works,
    so i might start using it if i find it beneficial.
    what i am expecting out of it is to give applications a more professional
    look, and to make them more standard, and just to learn something new.
     
    hilz, Nov 10, 2003
    #5
  6. John O'Conner wrote:
    > Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
    > *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
    > created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
    > using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
    > so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.


    Waste of *what*?

    When all's said and done, a good framework can save you a *LOT* of coding time
    on bigger projects. It may not seem as exciting as designing it all yourself
    from scratch, but "exciting" counts little versus getting it done in a third of
    the time due to reuse and fewer bugs.
     
    Michael Borgwardt, Nov 10, 2003
    #6
  7. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    nos Guest

    I have heard this kind of claim before (3 times faster
    to develop) but there is no credibility. I just use eclipse
    as an editor. In really big waterfall type projects coding
    is about 10 percent of the total effort. I suppose it is
    more for extreme programming where you start
    coding on day one and you need a good editor because
    you change it every day.

    "Michael Borgwardt" <> wrote in message
    news:booa1m$1g2nek$-berlin.de...
    > John O'Conner wrote:
    > > Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
    > > *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
    > > created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
    > > using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
    > > so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.

    >
    > Waste of *what*?
    >
    > When all's said and done, a good framework can save you a *LOT* of coding

    time
    > on bigger projects. It may not seem as exciting as designing it all

    yourself
    > from scratch, but "exciting" counts little versus getting it done in a

    third of
    > the time due to reuse and fewer bugs.
    >
     
    nos, Nov 10, 2003
    #7
  8. nos wrote:
    > I have heard this kind of claim before (3 times faster
    > to develop) but there is no credibility. I just use eclipse
    > as an editor. In really big waterfall type projects coding
    > is about 10 percent of the total effort.


    As I said: you do not only save time on coding, but also a LOT of testing
    and error-fixing due to the framework code already being tried and tested.
    Furthermore, there may well be gains in the design or even specification
    phase because you don't have to specify and design the framework components.

    Besides, using the waterfall process in a really big project is probably
    the overall worst mistake you can make (well, apart from using no defined
    process at all).
     
    Michael Borgwardt, Nov 11, 2003
    #8
  9. Michael Borgwardt wrote:
    >
    > Waste of *what*?



    Look, I'm not religious about this. However, it seems that all the great
    things that make NetBeans so wonderful are not typically present in a
    small application...explorer windows, various types of editors, console
    output windows, a plugin architecture, etc.

    There's a lot of good code there to learn about and to use, but I
    maintain that most applications (which tend to be small) won't benefit
    significantly from a framework because the overhead of the framework
    (space requirements, startup time, RAM usage, complexity, learning time)
    is often orders of magnitude greater than the basic application itself.
    That would deter me, but hey, like I said, I don't want to discourage
    anyone from learning and using a framework, especially if they can claim
    productivity gains.

    --
    John O'Conner
     
    John O'Conner, Nov 11, 2003
    #9
  10. John O'Conner wrote:
    > Look, I'm not religious about this. However, it seems that all the great
    > things that make NetBeans so wonderful are not typically present in a
    > small application...explorer windows, various types of editors, console
    > output windows, a plugin architecture, etc.


    You didn't previously say "small application". Besides, not using
    most the features offered (nearly any app will use *some*) is not yet
    in itself a waste of anything.


    > There's a lot of good code there to learn about and to use, but I
    > maintain that most applications (which tend to be small) won't benefit


    Maybe most applications *you* have worked on are small, but this is not
    necessarily so for others.


    > significantly from a framework because the overhead of the framework
    > (space requirements, startup time, RAM usage, complexity, learning time)
    > is often orders of magnitude greater than the basic application itself.


    I'd say that it would have to be a *really* small application and/or a
    really badly documented framework for the complexity and learning time to
    outweigh the gains. IMO most programmers' preference for doing stuff from
    scratch is counterproductive.

    However, I'll have to agree concerning the performance overheads: those
    are a really good reason not to use the framework - IF size and speed really
    are important for the application's intended running environment. This
    is becoming rarer all the time, with the cheapest new computer you can buy
    having a 1GHz CPU and 256MB RAM...
     
    Michael Borgwardt, Nov 11, 2003
    #10
  11. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    Implacabile Guest

    Implacabile, Nov 11, 2003
    #11
  12. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    Chris Smith Guest

    > >The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
    > >platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better?


    David Segall wrote:
    > I think you have to choose between the GUI widgets. Eclipse uses SWT
    > and NetBeans uses standard Swing. I'm not capable of conducting the
    > arguments on either side.


    Nope, that's rather untrue. Eclipse happens to be written in SWT, but
    aside from some theoretical limits on portability of the development
    environment itself, that's not particularly relevant. I write Swing-
    based applications in Eclipse all the time; even maintain one as a large
    part of my job.

    There *is* a difference in that Netbeans has a GUI editor, whereas with
    Eclipse you have to go out and find one... and I haven't heard of anyone
    find a good solid GUI editor for Swing, but I wouldn't know because I
    don't use the things. If they are your cup of tea, though, I'd suggest
    looking around for something suitable before settling on Eclipse as your
    environment.

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
     
    Chris Smith, Nov 24, 2003
    #12
  13. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    David Segall Guest

    Chris Smith <> wrote:

    >> >The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
    >> >platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better?

    >
    >David Segall wrote:
    >> I think you have to choose between the GUI widgets. Eclipse uses SWT
    >> and NetBeans uses standard Swing. I'm not capable of conducting the
    >> arguments on either side.

    >
    >Nope, that's rather untrue. Eclipse happens to be written in SWT, but
    >aside from some theoretical limits on portability of the development
    >environment itself, that's not particularly relevant. I write Swing-
    >based applications in Eclipse all the time; even maintain one as a large
    >part of my job.

    The OP was not asking which IDE to use to _develop_ his application he
    was asking whether to use the source code of Eclipse or NetBeans as
    the _basis_ of his application. He could use the Swing based NetBeans
    beans but choose Eclipse as his IDE or vice-versa but his application
    would be SWT or Swing based depending on the choice of the underlying
    framework.
    >There *is* a difference in that Netbeans has a GUI editor, whereas with
    >Eclipse you have to go out and find one... and I haven't heard of anyone
    >find a good solid GUI editor for Swing, but I wouldn't know because I
    >don't use the things. If they are your cup of tea, though, I'd suggest
    >looking around for something suitable before settling on Eclipse as your
    >environment.
     
    David Segall, Nov 24, 2003
    #13
  14. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    Chris Smith Guest

    David Segall wrote:
    > The OP was not asking which IDE to use to _develop_ his application he
    > was asking whether to use the source code of Eclipse or NetBeans as
    > the _basis_ of his application.


    Oh! That's what I get for jumping into the middle of a thread. Sorry!

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
     
    Chris Smith, Nov 24, 2003
    #14
  15. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    Juha Laiho Guest

    Chris Smith <> said:
    >There *is* a difference in that Netbeans has a GUI editor, whereas with
    >Eclipse you have to go out and find one... and I haven't heard of anyone
    >find a good solid GUI editor for Swing, but I wouldn't know because I
    >don't use the things. If they are your cup of tea, though, I'd suggest
    >looking around for something suitable before settling on Eclipse as your
    >environment.


    I think I just saw an announcement that IBM has donated a GUI editor
    to Eclipse. Didn't verify, as I'm using NetBeans myself (currently,
    at least) - but might be a thing to check.
    --
    Wolf a.k.a. Juha Laiho Espoo, Finland
    (GC 3.0) GIT d- s+: a C++ ULSH++++$ P++@ L+++ E- W+$@ N++ !K w !O !M V
    PS(+) PE Y+ PGP(+) t- 5 !X R !tv b+ !DI D G e+ h---- r+++ y++++
    "...cancel my subscription to the resurrection!" (Jim Morrison)
     
    Juha Laiho, Nov 24, 2003
    #15
  16. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    Dale King Guest

    "Juha Laiho" <> wrote in message
    news:bpthon$ua7$-int...
    > Chris Smith <> said:
    > >There *is* a difference in that Netbeans has a GUI editor, whereas with
    > >Eclipse you have to go out and find one... and I haven't heard of anyone
    > >find a good solid GUI editor for Swing, but I wouldn't know because I
    > >don't use the things. If they are your cup of tea, though, I'd suggest
    > >looking around for something suitable before settling on Eclipse as your
    > >environment.

    >
    > I think I just saw an announcement that IBM has donated a GUI editor
    > to Eclipse. Didn't verify, as I'm using NetBeans myself (currently,
    > at least) - but might be a thing to check.



    Yes they have. See http://www.eclipse.org/vep/
    --
    Dale King
     
    Dale King, Nov 25, 2003
    #16
  17. mia.news.speakeasy.net

    hilz Guest

    > The OP was not asking which IDE to use to _develop_ his application he
    > was asking whether to use the source code of Eclipse or NetBeans as
    > the _basis_ of his application.


    That is correct!

    Another aspect i that comes into play is:

    Say five years down the road, which might look better on a resume:

    developed applications based on the NetBeans platform
    or
    developed applications based on the Eclipse platform.

    I know that "both" might be a better choice, but i guess that would be
    unrealistic.

    One thing that I did not pay attension to (and thanks to some of the people
    who answered to the OP and opened my eyes) is that it also come to choosing
    between SWING and SWT.
    so this might be a totally different approach of looking at the problem.
    but lets not go there for now!

    thanks
    hilz
     
    hilz, Nov 26, 2003
    #17
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