Netscape 4 tips.

Discussion in 'HTML' started by spaghetti, Nov 17, 2003.

  1. spaghetti

    spaghetti Guest

    Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well in
    Netscape 4 and worse. I need to rely on tables for positioning and have
    setup a decent looking page that isn't cluttered and doesn't use too much
    table-bloat. But I'm still having quite a few problems in general with
    Netscape 4. I guess I just don't understand all it's quirks and failures. At
    this point I'm wondering how the hell Netscape 4 ever happened. It's like
    raping my mind of pure layout and CSS skills!

    So I'm just looking for some tips that might help me along the way. I know
    already I pretty much can't use CSS unless it's for insanely simple things.
    And I have to set rules specifically since it can't understand all the
    shortcuts. And it doesn't do ems. And it is the only browser that can cause
    a page to look a bit different on every refresh.

    But anything else I should know before I finish braving the wild of this
    screwy browser?

    Thanks guys.

    -spag

    (And I deny the accusation of having blow-up dolls of all my favorite
    alt.html celebrities.)
    spaghetti, Nov 17, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. spaghetti

    Blorn Hauser Guest

    "spaghetti" <> wrote in message
    news:f59ub.5134$...
    > Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well in
    > Netscape 4 and worse. I need to rely on tables for positioning and have
    > setup a decent looking page that isn't cluttered and doesn't use too much
    > table-bloat. But I'm still having quite a few problems in general with
    > Netscape 4. I guess I just don't understand all it's quirks and failures.

    At
    > this point I'm wondering how the hell Netscape 4 ever happened. It's like
    > raping my mind of pure layout and CSS skills!
    >
    > So I'm just looking for some tips that might help me along the way. I know
    > already I pretty much can't use CSS unless it's for insanely simple

    things.
    > And I have to set rules specifically since it can't understand all the
    > shortcuts. And it doesn't do ems. And it is the only browser that can

    cause
    > a page to look a bit different on every refresh.
    >
    > But anything else I should know before I finish braving the wild of this
    > screwy browser?
    >
    > Thanks guys.
    >
    > -spag
    >
    > (And I deny the accusation of having blow-up dolls of all my favorite
    > alt.html celebrities.)
    >
    >


    I feel your pain and await group responses. i've recently sunk my claws into
    css. i don't know how i built table-based sites for so long. well i'm
    testing all my css in netscape 4.7 (css1 stuff) and it is disgraceful. it
    has little respect of simple box elements such as margin. also nesting spans
    / divs is a crap-shoot.

    as a developer i've dealt with cross-browser / platform issues since '96. I
    think i am going to do my best to write off netscape completely. now we have
    safari which i don't know much about. the bottomline is that the internet
    audience is primarily IE based. I can't imagine how many web dev man hours
    could have been saved if netscape had just complied with MS standards:)

    carl
    Blorn Hauser, Nov 17, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. spaghetti

    kchayka Guest

    Blorn Hauser wrote:
    >
    > I can't imagine how many web dev man hours
    > could have been saved if netscape had just complied with MS standards:)


    That's funny, I was just thinking how many hours I could have saved if
    MSIE had just complied with W3C standards. ;)

    --
    To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
    address is considered spam and automatically deleted.
    kchayka, Nov 17, 2003
    #3
  4. spaghetti

    spaghetti Guest


    > That's funny, I was just thinking how many hours I could have saved if
    > MSIE had just complied with W3C standards. ;)


    The thing is Netscape 4 focks up the basic stuff so badly in the first
    place. I mean I understand nobody was really following standards at that
    time, but this thing isn't even in the same ballpark as anyone else. It's
    like they assumed everyone would build pages with <img> and <font> tags
    alone.
    spaghetti, Nov 17, 2003
    #4
  5. spaghetti

    Kevin Scholl Guest

    spaghetti wrote:

    >>That's funny, I was just thinking how many hours I could have saved if
    >>MSIE had just complied with W3C standards. ;)


    Amen.

    > The thing is Netscape 4 focks up the basic stuff so badly in the first
    > place. I mean I understand nobody was really following standards at that
    > time, but this thing isn't even in the same ballpark as anyone else. It's
    > like they assumed everyone would build pages with <img> and <font> tags
    > alone.


    Well, Netscape 4 was released in 1996. At that time, it wasn't so much
    that "nobody was really following standards" -- the standards,
    particularly as we know them today, didn't really even exist. Can you
    really fault a 7 year old browser?

    Heck, Netscape 4 was reasonably cutting edge when it was released.

    --

    *** Remove the DELETE from my address to reply ***

    ======================================================
    Kevin Scholl http://www.ksscholl.com

    ------------------------------------------------------
    Information Architecture, Web Design and Development
    ------------------------------------------------------
    We are the music makers, and we are the dreamers of
    the dreams...
    ======================================================
    Kevin Scholl, Nov 18, 2003
    #5
  6. spaghetti

    Barefoot Kid Guest

    "spaghetti" <> wrote in message
    news:f59ub.5134$...
    | Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well in
    | Netscape 4 and worse. I need to rely on tables for positioning and have
    | setup a decent looking page that isn't cluttered and doesn't use too much
    | table-bloat. But I'm still having quite a few problems in general with
    | Netscape 4. I guess I just don't understand all it's quirks and failures. At
    | this point I'm wondering how the hell Netscape 4 ever happened. It's like
    | raping my mind of pure layout and CSS skills!
    |
    | So I'm just looking for some tips that might help me along the way. I know
    | already I pretty much can't use CSS unless it's for insanely simple things.
    | And I have to set rules specifically since it can't understand all the
    | shortcuts. And it doesn't do ems. And it is the only browser that can cause
    | a page to look a bit different on every refresh.
    |
    | But anything else I should know before I finish braving the wild of this
    | screwy browser?
    |
    | Thanks guys.

    beware of bg images of table tiling within the tables cells!!!

    http://www.webdevelopersnotes.com/tips/html/14.php3
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Hung Diep
    New Media Designer
    www.intro-spect.co.uk
    0795 6576 319
    Barefoot Kid, Nov 18, 2003
    #6
  7. spaghetti

    Andrew Tang Guest

    "spaghetti" <> wrote in message
    news:f59ub.5134$...
    > Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well in
    > Netscape 4 and worse. I need to rely on tables for positioning and have
    > setup a decent looking page that isn't cluttered and doesn't use too much
    > table-bloat. But I'm still having quite a few problems in general with
    > Netscape 4. I guess I just don't understand all it's quirks and failures.

    At
    > this point I'm wondering how the hell Netscape 4 ever happened. It's like
    > raping my mind of pure layout and CSS skills!
    >
    > So I'm just looking for some tips that might help me along the way. I know
    > already I pretty much can't use CSS unless it's for insanely simple

    things.
    > And I have to set rules specifically since it can't understand all the
    > shortcuts. And it doesn't do ems. And it is the only browser that can

    cause
    > a page to look a bit different on every refresh.
    >
    > But anything else I should know before I finish braving the wild of this
    > screwy browser?
    >
    > Thanks guys.
    >
    > -spag
    >
    > (And I deny the accusation of having blow-up dolls of all my favorite
    > alt.html celebrities.)
    >
    >


    Some questions of my own first. :)

    Does it need to look good in NS4? Are a majority of your users going to be
    using NS4, or are you just supporting Netscape 4 because a minority are
    using it.

    Nowadays, sites can be create in pure CSS for design, and HTML for
    structure, whilst still working in NS4 by degrading gracefully. The problem
    with this approach is that Netscape 4 users will see a very bland page as if
    it is not done with any styling whatsoever. The advantages are that it works
    in all browsers (they all get the content which is the most important aspect
    usually), and people with newer browsers has the ability to see the full
    design in full colour.

    All that needs to be done is write out the page in HTML first with -no- CSS,
    and this will define your sites structure and what NS4 users will see. Then
    create an external stylesheet for the page, using the import command.

    Andy

    PS Some good CSS sites if you don't know already
    http://www.csszengarden.com/
    Andrew Tang, Nov 18, 2003
    #7
  8. Robert Frost-Bridges, Nov 18, 2003
    #8
  9. spaghetti

    John C Guest

    On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:13:15 GMT spaghetti posted:

    > Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well in
    > Netscape 4 and worse. I need to rely on tables for positioning and have
    > [snip]
    > But anything else I should know before I finish braving the wild of this
    > screwy browser?


    This might help, in addition to pointers in other replies:

    http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=NetscapeFour

    I've done okay without tables using css 3-column fluid layout with header
    and footer sections, working fine in NN4 as well as modern browsers.
    Instead of hiding css from NN4, I start out with a stylesheet that NN4
    understands, and then add second stylesheet with @import to bring in
    refinements for modern browsers plus IE5 hacks. And validating 4.01
    strict and CSS2. The main thing I found was that rules often don't
    inherit in NN4, so things have to be repeated for many elements, bloating
    the stylesheet in comparison to what works in today's browsers. I found
    it harder to deal with IE5x than with NN4, however.

    Good luck! In my case, it was nothing other than personal satisfaction to
    see some pages look the same in NN4 as IE5, IE6, Mozilla 1.5, etc. after
    people told me it couldn't be done. Don't think I'd want to have to count
    on it for my livelihood, though!

    --
    John C
    John C, Nov 19, 2003
    #9
  10. spaghetti

    charliek Guest

    On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:13:15 GMT, "spaghetti" <>
    wrote:

    >Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well in
    >Netscape 4 and worse. I need to rely on tables for positioning and have
    >setup a decent looking page that isn't cluttered and doesn't use too much
    >table-bloat. But I'm still having quite a few problems in general with
    >Netscape 4. I guess I just don't understand all it's quirks and failures. At
    >this point I'm wondering how the hell Netscape 4 ever happened. It's like
    >raping my mind of pure layout and CSS skills!
    >
    >So I'm just looking for some tips that might help me along the way. I know
    >already I pretty much can't use CSS unless it's for insanely simple things.
    >And I have to set rules specifically since it can't understand all the
    >shortcuts. And it doesn't do ems. And it is the only browser that can cause
    >a page to look a bit different on every refresh.
    >
    >But anything else I should know before I finish braving the wild of this
    >screwy browser?
    >
    >Thanks guys.
    >
    >-spag
    >
    >(And I deny the accusation of having blow-up dolls of all my favorite
    >alt.html celebrities.)
    >


    Netscape 4 is old, you can not blame it for not supporting todays
    standards. If you want to blame somebody blame whoever is forcing you
    to support netscape 4

    To make your site look good use tables for layout and lots of font
    tags. Don't use CSS. This would suck to hand code, and I would
    recommend that you use dreamweaver or something similar. Don't use
    images as backgrounds in tables. It should not be that hard but the
    page source will become longer.

    AND HAVE FUN.

    Charlie
    charliek, Nov 20, 2003
    #10
  11. spaghetti

    Paul Aitch Guest

    "charliek" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 19:13:15 GMT, "spaghetti" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Necessity has forced me to build a site that works (reasonably) well

    in
    > >Netscape 4 and worse.

    <snip>
    > To make your site look good use tables for layout and lots of font
    > tags. Don't use CSS. This would suck to hand code, and I would
    > recommend that you use dreamweaver or something similar. Don't use
    > images as backgrounds in tables. It should not be that hard but the
    > page source will become longer.
    >
    > AND HAVE FUN.
    >
    > Charlie


    You can use CSS with care. Main problem is that NS4 doesn't always
    inherit. If you set, say body {font-size: 24px} and then have a div
    governed by a class that sets {font-size: 18px}, when you exit the div
    the font-size sometimes doesn't revert to 24. You have to reset it to 24
    with a style statement in the new div. A pain in the proverbial. That's
    why you'll find a lot of redundant-seeming style statements in many of
    my pages - see
    http://www.guycroft.clara.net

    Paul
    Paul Aitch, Nov 20, 2003
    #11
  12. spaghetti

    rf Guest

    "Paul Aitch" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "charliek" <> wrote in message
    > news:...


    [Netscape 4.x]
    >
    > You can use CSS with care. Main problem is that NS4 doesn't always
    > inherit. If you set, say body {font-size: 24px} and then have a div
    > governed by a class that sets {font-size: 18px}, when you exit the div
    > the font-size sometimes doesn't revert to 24. You have to reset it to 24
    > with a style statement in the new div. A pain in the proverbial.


    Another good reason for never setting the font-size, especially in pixels.
    And why would one set font-size: 24px for the <body> element? That is over
    half again as big as I like my font. I would have to lean on my mouse wheel
    to bring the font size back to what I like to read.

    Cheers
    Richard.
    rf, Nov 20, 2003
    #12
  13. spaghetti

    Mark Parnell Guest

    Sometime around Thu, 20 Nov 2003 07:22:00 GMT, rf is reported to have
    stated:
    >
    > [Netscape 4.x]
    >
    > And why would one set font-size: 24px for the <body> element? That is over
    > half again as big as I like my font. I would have to lean on my mouse wheel
    > to bring the font size back to what I like to read.
    >


    Doesn't work in NS4. Ctrl+[ and Ctrl+] to decrease and increase font size
    respectively. :p

    --
    Mark Parnell
    http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
    Mark Parnell, Nov 20, 2003
    #13
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Kent P. Iler
    Replies:
    2
    Views:
    519
    Kent P. Iler
    Sep 18, 2003
  2. Tom
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    490
  3. Mickey Segal
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    659
    Mickey Segal
    May 21, 2004
  4. yaktipper
    Replies:
    10
    Views:
    277
    Richard Cornford
    Jul 10, 2003
  5. Replies:
    1
    Views:
    3,125
    Arne Vajhøj
    Jul 31, 2012
Loading...

Share This Page