new page... little help please?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by DaKitty, Nov 20, 2004.

  1. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side includes
    Here's the page I'm creating:
    http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp

    This time it actually has a functional navbar.

    I know, I know, it's a table based layout... I'm not up on CSS stuff yet.
    Maybe I'll learn more about it on my next project.
    oh, yea, if you're curious, the SSI page alone is:
    http://www.socalolympians.org/navbar.asp

    I ran it through the validator... it is complaining about alt tag missing on
    shim image... I think I'll pass that one up. I relied on Fireworks to do the
    layout, and didn't go creating the table myself, from scratch... I'm not
    completely sure why it's using shims... when I remove them, the whole thing
    gets jumbled up, so I'm not touching them (for now).

    The part I don't understand is the 'doctype' declaration that the validator
    got hung up on. What should my doctype be?

    I'm wondering if the other messages about margin etc... won't disappear
    after a correct doctype has been declared???

    Thanks to the validator, I remembered to put alt tags in my navbar images...
    I gather it's a very good coding practice to do that? What does it do?
    Displays text tag for those who aren't seeing the images for one reason or
    another? Is that correct? Is there more to it?

    Another thing, I think across the bottom, in a little less conspicuous spot
    I'll put a basic text navigation bar?
    Much like I have on this site: http://mastersmvnswim.org/Main.htm near the
    bottom. Is it a good practice to do those?
    And... no looking at the code on this one.. I inherited that site... I don't
    wanna know what you'll find there, I think it'll just give me a headache,
    and I won't know or have much time to fix it all :( In few months I'll get
    to redesign it from scratch, I hope!

    Thanks,
    Connie
     
    DaKitty, Nov 20, 2004
    #1
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  2. DaKitty

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:56:19 -0800, "DaKitty"
    <> wrote:

    >Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side includes
    >Here's the page I'm creating:
    >http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp
    >
    >This time it actually has a functional navbar.


    But no content?

    And are you going to do something about the fact that all the pages
    link to themselves?

    >I ran it through the validator... it is complaining about alt tag missing on
    >shim image... I think I'll pass that one up.


    Why? Is adding alt="" to the (frankly pointless spacer images) too
    much work?

    You also need to add alts to the header images. Turn off image loading
    and your page has no heading. Whoops.

    >The part I don't understand is the 'doctype' declaration that the validator
    >got hung up on. What should my doctype be?


    Based on your code, HTML 4.01 Transitional.

    >I'm wondering if the other messages about margin etc... won't disappear
    >after a correct doctype has been declared???


    No. Your using code that doesn't exist in any published version of
    HTML. So that will be reported as an error whatever doctype you use
    (unless you fancy writing your own DTD and referencing that in your
    doctype).

    >Thanks to the validator, I remembered to put alt tags in my navbar images...
    >I gather it's a very good coding practice to do that? What does it do?
    >Displays text tag for those who aren't seeing the images for one reason or
    >another? Is that correct? Is there more to it?


    Correct.

    >Another thing, I think across the bottom, in a little less conspicuous spot
    >I'll put a basic text navigation bar?


    Not much need for it as far as I can see.

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Nov 20, 2004
    #2
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  3. auntie_biotic, Nov 21, 2004
    #3
  4. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:56:19 -0800, "DaKitty"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side includes
    > >Here's the page I'm creating:
    > >http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp
    > >
    > >This time it actually has a functional navbar.

    >
    > But no content?


    Not at the moment... The powers to be just emailed me a bunch of word
    documents with content. WIP

    > And are you going to do something about the fact that all the pages
    > link to themselves?


    What do you mean by 'they link to themselves?'
    It links to a different page each time, it's just that they all look the
    same at the moment. I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

    One thing I would like to do is have the navbar display a down image first,
    depending on what page you're on... as a little indicator where you are.
    in general programming terms, I suppose it would be an if/then loop, if
    current page is:...... then initialy display down image, else.... (what's
    there now)
    I suspect that would have to be written insice the navbar.asp code.
    I have no idea how to go by doing that. Does html have a conditional loop
    that could do this, or does it need to be a javascript piece?

    > >I ran it through the validator... it is complaining about alt tag missing

    on
    > >shim image... I think I'll pass that one up.

    >
    > Why? Is adding alt="" to the (frankly pointless spacer images) too
    > much work?


    I'm not fully understanding their function yet, but I suspected theyre not
    necessary, at least that's what I'm starting to gather. So I put off dealing
    with that later. I may end up rfemoving them completely... Although, on my
    first try, the table layout got all jumbled up. Need to experiment more.

    > You also need to add alts to the header images. Turn off image loading
    > and your page has no heading. Whoops.


    Good point! Thanks.

    > >The part I don't understand is the 'doctype' declaration that the

    validator
    > >got hung up on. What should my doctype be?

    >
    > Based on your code, HTML 4.01 Transitional.


    I don't know. At this point I use whatever dreamweaver mx comes up with. I
    don't know enough yet to do straight HTML.
    I keep the code window open, so I can slowly learn what does what.

    > >I'm wondering if the other messages about margin etc... won't disappear
    > >after a correct doctype has been declared???

    >
    > No. Your using code that doesn't exist in any published version of
    > HTML.


    So why does dreamweaver put it there? Will the page look diofferent if I
    take that code out?
    (Sorry.. I'm really *that* new to all this)

    > So that will be reported as an error whatever doctype you use
    > (unless you fancy writing your own DTD and referencing that in your
    > doctype).


    What does DTD stand for?

    > >Thanks to the validator, I remembered to put alt tags in my navbar

    images...
    > >I gather it's a very good coding practice to do that? What does it do?
    > >Displays text tag for those who aren't seeing the images for one reason

    or
    > >another? Is that correct? Is there more to it?

    >
    > Correct.
    >
    > >Another thing, I think across the bottom, in a little less conspicuous

    spot
    > >I'll put a basic text navigation bar?

    >


    I was reading somewhere that it's needed in case a user has images turned
    off, or there are some other navbar malfunctions?
    But, other than knowing that alt tags in images will help this, I haven't
    got a clue what other 'malfunctions' could happen.
    Does this mean any more to you than it does to me???

    Thank you very much for your input!
     
    DaKitty, Nov 21, 2004
    #4
  5. DaKitty

    neredbojias Guest

    Without quill or qualm, DaKitty quothed:

    > Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side includes
    > Here's the page I'm creating:
    > http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp


    I get something completely different from IE in Mozilla. In the latter,
    the menu is way down the page.

    --
    Neredbojias
    Contrary to popular belief, it is believable.
     
    neredbojias, Nov 21, 2004
    #5
  6. DaKitty

    Steve Pugh Guest

    On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:21:01 -0800, "DaKitty"
    <> wrote:
    >"Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:56:19 -0800, "DaKitty"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side includes
    >> >Here's the page I'm creating:
    >> >http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp
    >> >
    >> >This time it actually has a functional navbar.

    >>
    >> And are you going to do something about the fact that all the pages
    >> link to themselves?

    >
    >What do you mean by 'they link to themselves?'
    >It links to a different page each time, it's just that they all look the
    >same at the moment. I'm not sure I understand what you mean?


    http://www.socalolympians.org/about_us.asp has a link to
    http://www.socalolympians.org/about_us.asp

    http://www.socalolympians.org/news.asp has a link to
    http://www.socalolympians.org/news.asp

    and so on.

    It can be confusing to users, to be presented to a link to About Us
    when they think they're already on the About Us page, so the follow
    the link and reach the same page again. Pages should not link to
    themselves. So modify your navigation include so that the navigation
    image to the current page is not a link.

    >One thing I would like to do is have the navbar display a down image first,
    >depending on what page you're on... as a little indicator where you are.
    >in general programming terms, I suppose it would be an if/then loop, if
    >current page is:...... then initialy display down image, else.... (what's
    >there now)
    >I suspect that would have to be written insice the navbar.asp code.


    Yes. Obviously this should be combined with my suggestion above.

    >I have no idea how to go by doing that. Does html have a conditional loop
    >that could do this, or does it need to be a javascript piece?


    No. As you're using ASP for the includes you would do it with ASP.

    >> >I ran it through the validator... it is complaining about alt tag missing

    >on
    >> >shim image... I think I'll pass that one up.

    >>
    >> Why? Is adding alt="" to the (frankly pointless spacer images) too
    >> much work?

    >
    > I'm not fully understanding their function yet, but I suspected theyre not
    >necessary, at least that's what I'm starting to gather. So I put off dealing
    >with that later. I may end up rfemoving them completely... Although, on my
    >first try, the table layout got all jumbled up. Need to experiment more.


    Removing the spacer images is likely to make the tables based layout
    fall apart. Ideally you should aim to remove the tables based layout.

    If you feel that you aren't skilled enough to do this then you should
    add alt="" to all the spacer images. This helps to prevent a speech
    browser from saying 'image' every time it encounters one of these
    images.

    >> >The part I don't understand is the 'doctype' declaration that the
    >> > validator got hung up on. What should my doctype be?

    >>
    >> Based on your code, HTML 4.01 Transitional.

    >
    >I don't know. At this point I use whatever dreamweaver mx comes up with. I
    >don't know enough yet to do straight HTML.
    >I keep the code window open, so I can slowly learn what does what.


    HTML comes in various versions. The version that comes closest to
    matching what you have used is HTML 4.01 Transitional thus the doctype
    you should include
    <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    as the first line of your code.

    The specification for HTML 4.01 can be found at
    http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/

    As you become more skilled and less reliant on tools like Firewoks and
    Dreamweaver you should aim to write to HTML 4.01 Strict rather than
    Transitional.

    >> >I'm wondering if the other messages about margin etc... won't disappear
    >> >after a correct doctype has been declared???

    >>
    >> No. Your using code that doesn't exist in any published version of
    >> HTML.

    >
    >So why does dreamweaver put it there? Will the page look diofferent if I
    >take that code out?
    >(Sorry.. I'm really *that* new to all this)


    Yes, the page will look different. But you can replace this
    non-standard HTML code with standard CSS.

    body {
    margin: 0; padding: 0;
    }

    will set the page margins to zero in browsers with decent CSS support
    (IE4+, Opera, Netscape 6+, Safari, Konqueror, Mozilla, Firefox, etc.)
    The only browsers that support the non-standard HTML but not the CSS
    equivalents are IE3 and NN4. IE3 can safely be ignored these days and
    more and more authors are deciding that NN4 can be ignored as well.

    >> So that will be reported as an error whatever doctype you use
    >> (unless you fancy writing your own DTD and referencing that in your
    >> doctype).

    >
    >What does DTD stand for?


    Document Type Definition

    It's the formal definition of the HTML version being used.
    e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/loose.dtd
    and is what the doctype is referencing. This is what the validator
    checks your code against.


    >> >Another thing, I think across the bottom, in a little less conspicuous
    >> >spot I'll put a basic text navigation bar?

    >>

    >I was reading somewhere that it's needed in case a user has images turned
    >off, or there are some other navbar malfunctions?


    If your navigation was an image map rather than separate images, or
    relied upon JavaScript or Flash or some other optional client side
    technology then it might not work for some users. But as your
    navigation is just simple links with suitable alt texts there's little
    chance of it failing totally.

    What you may need to consider is that some users may find the text in
    your images difficult to read. A text only backup has the advantage
    that the user can override the colour scheme or enlarge the text. And
    if you are going to have pages with lots of content then some users
    may prefer to find a duplicated set of navigation at the bottom of the
    page (lazy buggers can't be botherd to go back to the top).

    Steve
     
    Steve Pugh, Nov 21, 2004
    #6
  7. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    "Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 16:21:01 -0800, "DaKitty"
    > <> wrote:
    > >"Steve Pugh" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Sat, 20 Nov 2004 14:56:19 -0800, "DaKitty"
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side

    includes
    > >> >Here's the page I'm creating:
    > >> >http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp
    > >> >
    > >> >This time it actually has a functional navbar.
    > >>
    > >> And are you going to do something about the fact that all the pages
    > >> link to themselves?

    > >
    > >What do you mean by 'they link to themselves?'
    > >It links to a different page each time, it's just that they all look the
    > >same at the moment. I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

    >
    > http://www.socalolympians.org/about_us.asp has a link to
    > http://www.socalolympians.org/about_us.asp
    >
    > http://www.socalolympians.org/news.asp has a link to
    > http://www.socalolympians.org/news.asp
    >
    > and so on.
    >
    > It can be confusing to users, to be presented to a link to About Us
    > when they think they're already on the About Us page, so the follow
    > the link and reach the same page again. Pages should not link to
    > themselves. So modify your navigation include so that the navigation
    > image to the current page is not a link.


    Oh, gotcha!
    I would like to do that... except with making the navbar an SSI, I don't
    know how to make the link inactive when on a particular page.
    Don't know enough coding yet.

    > >One thing I would like to do is have the navbar display a down image

    first,
    > >depending on what page you're on... as a little indicator where you are.
    > >in general programming terms, I suppose it would be an if/then loop, if
    > >current page is:...... then initialy display down image, else.... (what's
    > >there now)
    > >I suspect that would have to be written insice the navbar.asp code.

    >
    > Yes. Obviously this should be combined with my suggestion above.
    >
    > >I have no idea how to go by doing that. Does html have a conditional loop
    > >that could do this, or does it need to be a javascript piece?

    >
    > No. As you're using ASP for the includes you would do it with ASP.


    Don't know how to do it in ASP ot Javascript or PHP either. My whole
    point/question is, I need to see a sample of a code that does this.
    I'm starting to gather that ASP uses some of the VBscript? At least that;s
    what I read in an ASP tutorial yesterday.
    Well, looks like I have little ways to go befor I can figure out hiw to do
    it.
    If you happen to know a shortcu to a piece of code that does this - or
    something very similar, I'd really pappreciate a link. Seems like I pick up
    on things and remember them quicker when I 'reverse engineer' them.

    As for ASP vs. php vs. Javascript... I don't know which is better to use in
    what case. Hoping to learn more as I go....

    > >> >I ran it through the validator... it is complaining about alt tag

    missing
    > >on
    > >> >shim image... I think I'll pass that one up.
    > >>
    > >> Why? Is adding alt="" to the (frankly pointless spacer images) too
    > >> much work?

    > >
    > > I'm not fully understanding their function yet, but I suspected theyre

    not
    > >necessary, at least that's what I'm starting to gather. So I put off

    dealing
    > >with that later. I may end up rfemoving them completely... Although, on

    my
    > >first try, the table layout got all jumbled up. Need to experiment more.

    >
    > Removing the spacer images is likely to make the tables based layout
    > fall apart. Ideally you should aim to remove the tables based layout.


    I hear ya.
    I made a first attempt at CSS yesterday on the about Us page... Another one
    I need to learn more about!

    > If you feel that you aren't skilled enough to do this then you should
    > add alt="" to all the spacer images. This helps to prevent a speech
    > browser from saying 'image' every time it encounters one of these
    > images.


    Ah, good point about the speech browsers! This place does deal with
    Olympians AND Paralympians, so there may be more handicapped access than
    your usual run of the mill targeting general public website.

    > >> >The part I don't understand is the 'doctype' declaration that the
    > >> > validator got hung up on. What should my doctype be?
    > >>
    > >> Based on your code, HTML 4.01 Transitional.

    > >
    > >I don't know. At this point I use whatever dreamweaver mx comes up with.

    I
    > >don't know enough yet to do straight HTML.
    > >I keep the code window open, so I can slowly learn what does what.

    >
    > HTML comes in various versions. The version that comes closest to
    > matching what you have used is HTML 4.01 Transitional thus the doctype
    > you should include
    > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
    > "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
    > as the first line of your code.
    >
    > The specification for HTML 4.01 can be found at
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
    >
    > As you become more skilled and less reliant on tools like Firewoks and
    > Dreamweaver you should aim to write to HTML 4.01 Strict rather than
    > Transitional.


    Cool, thanks for that tidbit!!! I had no idea. :)

    > >> >I'm wondering if the other messages about margin etc... won't

    disappear
    > >> >after a correct doctype has been declared???
    > >>
    > >> No. Your using code that doesn't exist in any published version of
    > >> HTML.

    > >
    > >So why does dreamweaver put it there? Will the page look diofferent if I
    > >take that code out?
    > >(Sorry.. I'm really *that* new to all this)

    >
    > Yes, the page will look different. But you can replace this
    > non-standard HTML code with standard CSS.
    >
    > body {
    > margin: 0; padding: 0;
    > }
    >
    > will set the page margins to zero in browsers with decent CSS support
    > (IE4+, Opera, Netscape 6+, Safari, Konqueror, Mozilla, Firefox, etc.)
    > The only browsers that support the non-standard HTML but not the CSS
    > equivalents are IE3 and NN4. IE3 can safely be ignored these days and
    > more and more authors are deciding that NN4 can be ignored as well.


    Thanks! :)

    > >> So that will be reported as an error whatever doctype you use
    > >> (unless you fancy writing your own DTD and referencing that in your
    > >> doctype).

    > >
    > >What does DTD stand for?

    >
    > Document Type Definition
    >
    > It's the formal definition of the HTML version being used.
    > e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/loose.dtd
    > and is what the doctype is referencing. This is what the validator
    > checks your code against.


    Ah!? Gotcha!

    > >> >Another thing, I think across the bottom, in a little less conspicuous
    > >> >spot I'll put a basic text navigation bar?
    > >>

    > >I was reading somewhere that it's needed in case a user has images turned
    > >off, or there are some other navbar malfunctions?

    >
    > If your navigation was an image map rather than separate images, or
    > relied upon JavaScript or Flash or some other optional client side
    > technology then it might not work for some users. But as your
    > navigation is just simple links with suitable alt texts there's little
    > chance of it failing totally.
    >
    > What you may need to consider is that some users may find the text in
    > your images difficult to read. A text only backup has the advantage
    > that the user can override the colour scheme or enlarge the text. And
    > if you are going to have pages with lots of content then some users
    > may prefer to find a duplicated set of navigation at the bottom of the
    > page (lazy buggers can't be botherd to go back to the top).


    Got it!

    Hey, thanks for all the great input!
    So much to learn... it will take me some time to process it all!
    I hope my silly beginners questions aren't too annoying!
    I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things! :)

    -Connie
     
    DaKitty, Nov 21, 2004
    #7
  8. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    "neredbojias" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Without quill or qualm, DaKitty quothed:
    >
    > > Okay, so I've gotten the little bit if a hang on the Server Side

    includes
    > > Here's the page I'm creating:
    > > http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp

    >
    > I get something completely different from IE in Mozilla. In the latter,
    > the menu is way down the page.


    oops, that's no good.
    Thanks for pointing that out.
    Any hints as to why? (Wile I'm off troubleshooting it)
     
    DaKitty, Nov 21, 2004
    #8
  9. DaKitty

    Nik Coughlin Guest

    DaKitty wrote:
    >
    > Hey, thanks for all the great input!
    > So much to learn... it will take me some time to process it all!
    > I hope my silly beginners questions aren't too annoying!
    > I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things! :)
    >


    You show a willingness to listen which people around here probably find
    endearing.
     
    Nik Coughlin, Nov 21, 2004
    #9
  10. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    "Nik Coughlin" <nrkn!hopefully no spam!@woosh.co.nz> wrote in message
    news:...
    > DaKitty wrote:
    > >
    > > Hey, thanks for all the great input!
    > > So much to learn... it will take me some time to process it all!
    > > I hope my silly beginners questions aren't too annoying!
    > > I really appreciate you taking the time to explain things! :)
    > >

    >
    > You show a willingness to listen which people around here probably find
    > endearing.
    >

    Thanks :)
    Well, I hope I don't look like I want you guys to do it all for me...
    I try on my own too. There's just so much of it, especially when starting
    out, it's hard to know where to even begin.
    I have a pile of about 7-8 books I got in last few months...
    It really helps tremendously when you have a resource where you can ask a
    few pointed questions to get you over the hump... and you guys are being so
    nice to me, even though I'm sure you've heard the same questions over and
    over and over again! :)
     
    DaKitty, Nov 21, 2004
    #10
  11. DaKitty

    Kris Guest

    In article <qG7od.340056$a85.42633@fed1read04>,
    "DaKitty" <> wrote:

    > It really helps tremendously when you have a resource where you can ask a
    > few pointed questions to get you over the hump...


    What has been a lot of help to me is to continuously read this group
    (and others), not just threads that I have started or contributed to. I
    do that for over 1.5 years now and I am still learning. You can gain a
    lot when you take half an hour per day skimming for topics that catch
    your interest and read what experts have to say about it. It beats
    watching Dr. Phil.

    --
    Kris
    <> (nl)
     
    Kris, Nov 21, 2004
    #11
  12. DaKitty

    rf Guest

    DaKitty wrote:
    >
    > "neredbojias" <> wrote in message


    > > > http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp

    > >
    > > I get something completely different from IE in Mozilla. In the latter,
    > > the menu is way down the page.

    >
    > oops, that's no good.
    > Thanks for pointing that out.
    > Any hints as to why? (Wile I'm off troubleshooting it)


    You don't have a doctype specified, causing IE to function in quirks mode
    and thus reproducing the box model bugs from IE5.x. You then produce your
    page taking these bugs into account. When viewing the page with a real
    browser that does not have the bugs you get all sorts of weird things.

    In this case it looks like margin problems. IE in quirks mode thinks the
    margin is part of the body of an element so the margins width is included in
    the width: of the element. Other browsers correctly seperate margin from the
    elements width.

    So, with FF for instance, that big white area is too wide. Your top
    background tiles to the right and also down, as the navigation has been
    bumped to below the white area.

    All this is theory, I then went to your HTML to have a look.

    Oh my :)

    What is all of that nasty dreamweaver stuff doing in there? *ALL* of that
    silly mouseover stuff can be done quite readily with a couple of CSS rules.

    You are also allowing dreamweaver to use deprecated things like <font>
    elements. Don't. In fact don't let dreamweaver insert *any* code for you.
    Whatever code it does insert is usually rubbish.

    Start again by reproducing the page with a real editor. Not a WYSIWYDG one,
    something text only like notepad or crimson. Really. You will be far better
    off.

    This time use real text for the navbar, not pictures of text.

    <aside>
    If I were given the page as it stands to change I would immediately ask the
    client for enough money to re-write it totally. If the client refused I
    would give him the yellow pages so as to find another developer.
    </aside>

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 21, 2004
    #12
  13. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    "Kris" <> wrote in message
    news:4all.nl...
    > In article <qG7od.340056$a85.42633@fed1read04>,
    > "DaKitty" <> wrote:
    >
    > > It really helps tremendously when you have a resource where you can ask

    a
    > > few pointed questions to get you over the hump...

    >
    > What has been a lot of help to me is to continuously read this group
    > (and others), not just threads that I have started or contributed to. I
    > do that for over 1.5 years now and I am still learning. You can gain a
    > lot when you take half an hour per day skimming for topics that catch
    > your interest and read what experts have to say about it. It beats
    > watching Dr. Phil.


    oh, yeah, Dr. Phil... who was it that discovered him, was it Oprah...
    Created a monster!

    I need a TV channel that has Law & Order, Trading Spaces, Tech TV, Monk and
    Carol Duvall show rotating every hour.
     
    DaKitty, Nov 21, 2004
    #13
  14. DaKitty

    DaKitty Guest

    "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    news:vw9od.44270$...
    > DaKitty wrote:
    > >
    > > "neredbojias" <> wrote in message

    >
    > > > > http://www.socalolympians.org/Page2.asp
    > > >
    > > > I get something completely different from IE in Mozilla. In the

    latter,
    > > > the menu is way down the page.

    > >
    > > oops, that's no good.
    > > Thanks for pointing that out.
    > > Any hints as to why? (Wile I'm off troubleshooting it)

    >
    > You don't have a doctype specified, causing IE to function in quirks mode
    > and thus reproducing the box model bugs from IE5.x. You then produce your
    > page taking these bugs into account. When viewing the page with a real
    > browser that does not have the bugs you get all sorts of weird things.
    >
    > In this case it looks like margin problems. IE in quirks mode thinks the
    > margin is part of the body of an element so the margins width is included

    in
    > the width: of the element. Other browsers correctly seperate margin from

    the
    > elements width.
    >
    > So, with FF for instance, that big white area is too wide. Your top
    > background tiles to the right and also down, as the navigation has been
    > bumped to below the white area.


    I've seen that happen in the dreamweaver editor as well.
    I suspect that has to do with rowspans...

    > All this is theory, I then went to your HTML to have a look.
    >
    > Oh my :)
    >
    > What is all of that nasty dreamweaver stuff doing in there? *ALL* of that
    > silly mouseover stuff can be done quite readily with a couple of CSS

    rules.

    I suspected that... Another thing to learn.
    What do I do with people who want their website, and are totally in love
    with the graphics, and won't go for the text only...
    You need to be able to accomodate them somehow.

    > You are also allowing dreamweaver to use deprecated things like <font>
    > elements. Don't. In fact don't let dreamweaver insert *any* code for you.
    > Whatever code it does insert is usually rubbish.
    >
    > Start again by reproducing the page with a real editor. Not a WYSIWYDG

    one,
    > something text only like notepad or crimson. Really. You will be far

    better
    > off.


    Hah! I wish I knew how to do all that!
    Maybe in a few months or so of learning, I'll know... umh.... 1/3 of it...

    Well, looks like it will be a looong time before I have a 'perfect' html.
    Yikes.
     
    DaKitty, Nov 22, 2004
    #14
  15. On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:59:18 -0800, DaKitty <>
    wrote:

    >
    > "Kris" <> wrote in message
    > news:4all.nl...
    >> In article <qG7od.340056$a85.42633@fed1read04>,
    >> "DaKitty" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > It really helps tremendously when you have a resource where you can

    >> ask

    > a
    >> > few pointed questions to get you over the hump...

    >>
    >> What has been a lot of help to me is to continuously read this group
    >> (and others), not just threads that I have started or contributed to. I
    >> do that for over 1.5 years now and I am still learning. You can gain a
    >> lot when you take half an hour per day skimming for topics that catch
    >> your interest and read what experts have to say about it. It beats
    >> watching Dr. Phil.

    >
    > oh, yeah, Dr. Phil... who was it that discovered him, was it Oprah...
    > Created a monster!
    >
    > I need a TV channel that has Law & Order, Trading Spaces, Tech TV, Monk
    > and
    > Carol Duvall show rotating every hour.
    >

    And how is that going to improve your html ablilities, hmm?
    No, really. If you get the TV channel you want, there wouldn't be much
    time left to try if Kris' advice can work for you. It is really an
    excellent advise. I've read newsgroups on www authoring and design for
    well over a year now, and my skills have improved drastically because of
    that and I'm still learning something new almost every day.

    I doubt if that had been the case had there been a TV channel, that has
    all the great British detective TV series with atleast Morse and the Ruth
    Rendell series, rotating every hour :) .


    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Nov 22, 2004
    #15
  16. DaKitty

    Els Guest

    Barbara de Zoete wrote:

    > On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 15:59:18 -0800, DaKitty
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> "Kris" <> wrote in message
    >> news:4all.nl..
    >> .
    >>> In article <qG7od.340056$a85.42633@fed1read04>,
    >>> "DaKitty" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> > It really helps tremendously when you have a resource
    >>> > where you can ask a few pointed questions to get you
    >>> > over the hump...
    >>>
    >>> What has been a lot of help to me is to continuously read
    >>> this group (and others), not just threads that I have
    >>> started or contributed to. I do that for over 1.5 years
    >>> now and I am still learning. You can gain a lot when you
    >>> take half an hour per day skimming for topics that catch
    >>> your interest and read what experts have to say about it.
    >>> It beats watching Dr. Phil.

    >>
    >> oh, yeah, Dr. Phil... who was it that discovered him, was
    >> it Oprah... Created a monster!
    >>
    >> I need a TV channel that has Law & Order, Trading Spaces,
    >> Tech TV, Monk and Carol Duvall show rotating every hour.
    >>

    > And how is that going to improve your html ablilities, hmm?
    > No, really. If you get the TV channel you want, there
    > wouldn't be much time left to try if Kris' advice can work
    > for you. It is really an excellent advise. I've read
    > newsgroups on www authoring and design for well over a
    > year now, and my skills have improved drastically because
    > of that and I'm still learning something new almost every
    > day.
    >
    > I doubt if that had been the case had there been a TV
    > channel, that has all the great British detective TV
    > series with atleast Morse and the Ruth Rendell series,
    > rotating every hour :) .


    It's all a matter of what's interesting to you. I used to
    watch TV several hours per day, all the sitcoms I liked had
    repeats on some channel at some hour, but since getting into
    webdesign / Usenet I seem to forget what's on telly, no matter
    if it's my favourite show :)

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Now playing: David Bowie - John, I'm Only Dancing
     
    Els, Nov 22, 2004
    #16
  17. On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 16:18:01 -0800, DaKitty <>
    wrote:

    > "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in message
    > news:vw9od.44270$...
    >
    >> You are also allowing dreamweaver to use deprecated things like <font>
    >> elements. Don't. In fact don't let dreamweaver insert *any* code for
    >> you.
    >> Whatever code it does insert is usually rubbish.
    >>
    >> Start again by reproducing the page with a real editor. Not a WYSIWYDG

    > one,
    >> something text only like notepad or crimson. Really. You will be far

    > better
    >> off.

    >
    > Hah! I wish I knew how to do all that!
    > Maybe in a few months or so of learning, I'll know... umh.... 1/3 of
    > it...
    >
    > Well, looks like it will be a looong time before I have a 'perfect' html.
    > Yikes.
    >


    If you look into html and css you will find it is more easy to learn how
    to code by hand (a trade you'll have use for for as long as you code for
    the www) than to learn how to use a program (which is only useful as long
    as you use that program).

    With html all you really need at first is knowledge on the basic page
    structure and knowlegde on a handful of elements and their attributes. If
    you master those, you can already write and code pages with solid
    structure that are semantically right and that any browser can parse. And
    you can write those pages fast too.
    Depending on what you do in your page, for me those elements are:
    - <h#>
    - <p>
    - <ul> and <ol>, with <li>
    - <img>
    - <a>
    - <table>, with <colgroup>, <col>, <thead>, <tfoot>, <tbody>, <tr>,
    <th>, <td>
    - <div>
    - <span>
    - and an occasional <iframe> because my server doesn't allow me to
    <!--#include

    CSS is probably a bit different in that the possibilities for using css
    seems indefinite. If you start out to style the basic elements for your
    pages (even on an attribute level if you want, although Internet Explorer
    doesn't support that) and once you know what you're doing there, you move
    on to laying out the page itself (with <div> and [id] so you can do with
    isolated and identifiable parts of a page what ever you want to), it
    shouldn't be too long before you can come up with some pretty nice styling
    and lay out too.

    Anyway, I think that is the way to learn. Get the basical structure,
    understand how to use semantically correct markup, style the elements you
    use (instead of using a lot of [class]es and [id]'s), lay out the page
    with unique [id]'s on some containing <div>'s. Done.
    Not only is that the way to learn, it is also (I think) the correct order
    to create any new page. So once you start learning in this order, you keep
    learning with every page you create. :) At least, that is my experience.


    --
    Weblog | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/_private/weblog.html>
    Webontwerp | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/webontwerp.html>
    Zweefvliegen | <http://home.wanadoo.nl/b.de.zoete/html/vliegen.html>
     
    Barbara de Zoete, Nov 22, 2004
    #17
  18. DaKitty

    rf Guest

    Els wrote:

    > I used to watch TV several hours per day


    Hmmm.

    > since getting into webdesign / Usenet I seem to forget what's on telly


    Hooked :)

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 22, 2004
    #18
  19. DaKitty

    Els Guest

    rf wrote:

    > Els wrote:
    >
    >> I used to watch TV several hours per day

    >
    > Hmmm.
    >
    >> since getting into webdesign / Usenet I seem to forget
    >> what's on telly

    >
    > Hooked :)


    Ssshh!! <g>

    --
    Els http://locusmeus.com/
    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Now playing: David Bowie - Rock & Roll Suicide
     
    Els, Nov 22, 2004
    #19
  20. DaKitty

    rf Guest

    Barbara de Zoete

    > - <h#>
    > - <p>
    > - <ul> and <ol>, with <li>
    > - <img>
    > - <a>


    Yes.

    > - <table>, with <colgroup>, <col>, <thead>, <tfoot>, <tbody>, <tr>,
    > <th>, <td>


    Only of course if the data in that table is tabular in nature.

    > - <div>


    Essential.

    > - <span>


    Only if the content can not be styled *without* using that element.

    > - and an occasional <iframe> because my server doesn't allow me to
    > <!--#include


    It is time for you to get a server that does support includes, preferable
    one that suports server side scripting.

    <stuff about id and class>

    Class is the way to go. ID is for other things, like fiddling with the DOM
    using javascript.

    --
    Cheers
    Richard.
     
    rf, Nov 22, 2004
    #20
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