New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough?

Discussion in 'Python' started by mogul, Dec 27, 2012.

  1. mogul

    mogul Guest

    'Aloha!

    I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

    Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

    Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?

    Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

    /mogul %-)
     
    mogul, Dec 27, 2012
    #1
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  2. mogul

    ian douglas Guest

    Some would argue that vim is always good enough, especially with its plugin
    system.

    I bounce between vim and Sublime Text 2, and recently bought PyCharm went
    it went on sale a week ago.
     
    ian douglas, Dec 27, 2012
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  3. mogul

    peter Guest

    On 12/27/2012 05:01 PM, mogul wrote:
    > 'Aloha!
    >
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    >
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?
    >
    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!
    >
    > /mogul %-)

    You going to create a war here. My honest advice, is just taste the
    different ides that are out there.

    - emacs
    - vi
    - aptana
    - eclipse
    - pycharm
    - wingide.
    - etc
    - etc.

    I currently use emacs for everything.
     
    peter, Dec 27, 2012
    #3
  4. > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix
    > alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.


    Welcome to the club!

    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
    > vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
    > me?


    Sure they will!

    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.


    Again, welcome to the club!

    > I should have made the switch much earlier!


    Indeed..

    BTW, I also use vim only,
    Daniel


    --
    Psss, psss, put it down! - http://www.cafepress.com/putitdown
     
    Daniel Fetchinson, Dec 27, 2012
    #4
  5. mogul

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 12/27/2012 3:01 PM, mogul wrote:
    > 'Aloha!
    >
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained
    > on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    >
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
    > or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
    > years too for me?


    We try to avoid religious issues on this list.
    Programming editors are a religious issue.
    Therefore ... ;-)

    Kidding aside, I am sure there is at least one core Python developer
    using vim (as well as emacs). I believe there are one or more
    'customization files' (or settings packages? don't know proper term for
    vim) which you should be able to find if you have not already.

    Some 'real IDE' users consider IDLE a limited beginner's toy. I use it
    happily for what *I* do. I don't even use all the features if *does* have.

    The one thing I would suggest is to make sure that you can run a python
    file with the '-i' flag so that the interpreter drops into interactive
    mode and gives a prompt instead of exiting when done. Then, if you get
    an exception like
    AttributeError: 'Foo' object has no 'frobulate attribute
    and you know the Foo object is named foo, you can enter (in the
    interpreter) 'dir(foo)' and perhaps see that it *does* has a 'fribulate'
    attribute. (When IDLE runs the code in an editor window, it stops with
    an interactive prompt in the shell window, and one can then enter code
    such as above.)

    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python
    > thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!


    Welcome to the club.

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Dec 27, 2012
    #5
  6. mogul

    Tim Chase Guest

    On 12/27/12 14:01, mogul wrote:
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I
    > do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the
    > next 20 years too for me?


    Coding Python (and before that C, Pascal, and even some VB in there)
    using vi/vim has worked for about 10 of the last 15 years of my
    career. Most VCS concepts carry over, even if the exact technology
    changes: I started off with zipfiles, then an unfortunate dance
    with VSS & CVS before finding Subversion, then Mercurial, and now
    git. So time spent with git won't be lost.

    Some like the hand-holding of a full-blown IDE, but I prefer to get
    intimate with the code and stick to a text editor.

    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this
    > python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!


    Alas, one of the worst parts about programming in Python is that I
    now find it hard to go back to any of the other languages that I
    know. :)

    -tkc
     
    Tim Chase, Dec 27, 2012
    #6
  7. On 12/27/2012 01:01 PM, mogul wrote:
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
    > or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
    > years too for me?


    I've never ever used an IDE with Python. With Python I can code for an
    hour in vim and it runs with only maybe one minor syntax error. Often
    the code runs first try, and runs correctly. Having a reference to the
    python standard library is about the only thing I need. I typically use
    python in a nutshell (dead tree) or just a browser page open to the
    official docs. Fortunately Python's use of namespaces and allowing the
    use of singleton objects (we call them modules!) eliminates must of the
    verbose rubbish that Java's libraries have.
     
    Michael Torrie, Dec 27, 2012
    #7
  8. On 12/27/2012 02:25 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
    > Alas, one of the worst parts about programming in Python is that I
    > now find it hard to go back to any of the other languages that I
    > know. :)


    Amen. I find myself wishing for a python-like language for programming
    Arduino boards.
     
    Michael Torrie, Dec 27, 2012
    #8
  9. mogul

    Modulok Guest

    > 'Aloha!
    >
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix
    > alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    >
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
    > vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
    > me?
    >
    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.
    > I should have made the switch much earlier!
    >
    > /mogul %-)



    No. If you want to test one out, great. If not, it's totally not required. I
    use jEdit (text editor) and a bunch of command line tools on FreeBSD. I've
    tried various IDEs and have yet to find one I totally agree with. Yet, I know
    guys who use them and wouldn't part with them 'til death. I always end up back
    in a customized text editor and a *nix command shell. I prefer it.

    There's a lot of *very* skilled programmers in both camps.
    -Modulok-
     
    Modulok, Dec 27, 2012
    #9
  10. On 27Dec2012 12:01, mogul <> wrote:
    | I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained
    | on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    |
    | Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    |
    | Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
    | or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
    | years too for me?

    Your Windows guys are weak. Use the tools that make you happy.

    Personally, my normal programming env is an editor window (vim for me,
    or vi) and a shell window. With the docs (2.x or 3.x, local
    all-in-one-HTML file saved on my desktop for instant open at need and
    offline use) in a browser window behind the terminals. (I'm usually on a
    Mac, so terminals and browser side-by-side aren't so easy with its
    desktop metaphor - it is a single keystroke to toggle back and forth
    though).

    | Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python
    | thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

    I thought that after biting the bullet a few years ago. I had (well,
    still have, though it grows not these days) this personal Perl library
    that kept me back, and hadn;t realised:

    - how many batteries are already included in the stdlib

    - how little of that library was current; re-implement the live stuff
    (better and cleaner) and move on - very liberating

    Cheers,
    --
    Cameron Simpson <>

    Avoid bickering and petty arguments by immediately punching anyone with whom
    you disagree. - (John Young)
     
    Cameron Simpson, Dec 27, 2012
    #10
  11. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 7:01 AM, mogul <> wrote:
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?


    Welcome!

    No, you don't *need* an IDE. Some people like them and are the more
    productive for them, but if standalone tools have served you well for
    20 years, they'll continue to do so. My current editor is SciTE,
    because it supports all the languages I use (except LilyPond - must
    look into that one day) and is available on Windows as well (I support
    both platforms), but there are plenty of other excellent editors, and
    vim is definitely one of them.

    When I'm on Windows, I like to keep IDLE handy, but not for editing
    source files. IDLE feels much nicer than command-line Python for
    interactive work; the ability to recall entire blocks of code, rather
    than individual lines, is hugely advantageous. (I don't do enough on
    Linux IDLE to be able to call the difference there, but GNU readline
    is so much better than the Windows interactive line reader that it's
    not as big an issue.) To me, IDLE is my calculator, my test space for
    python-list posts, and so on, but SciTE is where I write actual code.

    ChrisA
     
    Chris Angelico, Dec 27, 2012
    #11
  12. mogul

    TommyVee Guest

    "mogul" wrote in message
    news:...

    'Aloha!

    I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix
    alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

    Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

    Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
    vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
    me?

    Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.
    I should have made the switch much earlier!

    /mogul %-)

    I'd say start with IDLE. I wouldn't exactly consider it an "IDE", but it
    gives you a decent Python-oriented editor. For me it handles 95% of what I
    need to do (for more ambitious projects, I use PyScripter on the Windows
    platform).
     
    TommyVee, Dec 28, 2012
    #12
  13. mogul

    Roy Smith Guest

    In article <50dcf145$0$24782$>,
    "TommyVee" <> wrote:

    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
    > vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
    > me?


    You'll do fine with vim (or emacs, or whatever). You may find an IDE
    convenient, but it's certainly not necessary.
     
    Roy Smith, Dec 28, 2012
    #13
  14. On Thu, 27 Dec 2012 12:01:16 -0800, mogul wrote:

    > 'Aloha!
    >
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on
    > unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    >
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or
    > will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years
    > too for me?


    You only *need* an IDE when your environment has feeble stand-alone
    tools, like Windows. As far as I am concerned, Unix (including Linux) is
    itself the ultimate in hot-plug IDEs.

    http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/

    My own preferred IDE is:

    * The KDE editor Kate[1];

    * For preference, KDE's Konsole with multiple tabs, although any decent
    terminal app will do:

    - one tab for file system operations (e.g. renaming files) and source code
    control using hg or git;
    - one for running the script or stand-alone application I am writing,
    e.g. "python myscript.py", or if a library, for running unittests
    or doctests, e.g. "python -m doctest mylibrary.py"
    - at least one for running an interactive Python shell for testing code,
    reading documentation ("help(some_object)") etc.
    - anything else needed e.g. monitoring system load with top, etc.

    * A browser for searching the web and accessing the Python docs.

    I've never really got into automatic refactoring tools, but if I needed
    something more powerful than my editor's Find And Replace, I would
    investigate Bicycle Repair Man, or Rope. At a pinch, there's always sed,
    although I'm not a sed expert. (I can just about spell it... *wink*)

    I'm sure that IDEs have their good points, but in my experience whatever
    good points they have are overshadowed by the negatives (e.g. a clunky
    editor that doesn't respond instantly when you type). A Swiss Army Knife
    might be the best Swiss Army Knife money can buy, but in general it is no
    substitute for a toolbox filled with independent tools.

    In sports, it is said that "a champion team will beat a team of
    champions", but in software the opposite is the case: a set of excellent
    single-purpose tools is usually more powerful than a single tool that
    tries to do it all.

    Having said all that, if somebody has a personal preference for a
    specific IDE, then good for them, I certainly wouldn't tell them that
    they shouldn't use it.



    [1] KDE 3 only. KDE 4 is unspeakable. Gedit from Gnome 2 is almost a good
    substitute.

    --
    Steven
     
    Steven D'Aprano, Dec 28, 2012
    #14
  15. * mogul <> [2012-12-27 12:01:16 -0800]:

    > 'Aloha!
    >
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    >
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?
    >
    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!
    >
    > /mogul %-)


    If these are the tools you're used to, stick with them.

    I have a tmux session with however many terminals open I need. I use the
    traditional vi editor (not vim) and the python shell/interpreter as well
    as the UNIX tools I need. A web browser and a separate urxvt window for
    my mutt client when I need to mail a list for some help. That's it.

    The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
    all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
    believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing.
     
    Jamie Paul Griffin, Dec 28, 2012
    #15
  16. Use IDLE
     
    Yuvraj Sharma, Dec 28, 2012
    #16
  17. mogul

    Andrew Berg Guest

    On 2012.12.28 00:51, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
    > The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
    > all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
    > believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing.


    tmux is generally easily available for Linux, and these days, there's
    really no reason to use screen unless you absolutely cannot use tmux for
    some reason.

    To answer the OP's question, it's mostly personal preference. Use
    whatever makes you productive.
    --
    CPython 3.3.0 | Windows NT 6.2.9200.16461
     
    Andrew Berg, Dec 28, 2012
    #17
  18. On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Andrew Berg <> wrote:
    > On 2012.12.28 00:51, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
    >> The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
    >> all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
    >> believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing.

    >
    > tmux is generally easily available for Linux, and these days, there's
    > really no reason to use screen unless you absolutely cannot use tmux for
    > some reason.


    Hmm, interesting. I often use screen when I need a terminal on a
    remote system (via ssh) and I'm mobile on my laptop, with periodic
    connection dropouts. With screen(1), I can cope with that, but it's a
    bit ugly at times.

    *puts tmux on his "look into this some day" list*

    ChrisA
     
    Chris Angelico, Dec 28, 2012
    #18
  19. mogul

    Kwpolska Guest

    On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:01 PM, mogul <> wrote:
    > 'Aloha!

    Hello!
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.


    You are already awesome,

    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.


    and now you just became more awesome. (sans the Kubuntu part, but I
    do not care.)

    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years toofor me?


    Do you really think that those Windows idiots know what they are
    talking about? It’s Windows, for fuck’s sake. The only OSin the
    market that does not give a shit about POSIX. Windows does need an
    IDE, then, because it is really hard to do anything useful without
    one. Sure, this mail was sent from Windows, but I am using it for
    gaming purposes. If I want to do some programming, Linux is the
    proper environment. For me, it is Arch Linux with KDE and Konsole,
    running tabs of vim (with [python-mode][]) and ipython. And other
    useful tools (among others, Chrome with the docs.)

    [python-mode]: https://github.com/klen/python-mode

    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!


    That is great news.

    --
    Kwpolska <http://kwpolska.tk>
    stop html mail | always bottom-post
    www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
    GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16
     
    Kwpolska, Dec 28, 2012
    #19
  20. mogul

    gst Guest

    Le jeudi 27 décembre 2012 21:01:16 UTC+1, mogul a écrit :
    > 'Aloha!
    >


    holà !

    >
    > I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
    >


    About same than me, though I had not to use/work with perl for new projects, only in maintaining some existing stuffs in some previous jobs.


    >
    > Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
    >
    > Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years toofor me?
    >


    Obviously I have same comments than others ;) though I think it mainly depends on the project.. I do think/experience that big projects get some real advantage of advanced IDE, like eclipse/pycharm and others "big" python IDE.. Now which one to use is mainly a matter of taste, as always.


    >
    > Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.
    >


    as others said: welcome to the club :)


    > I should have made the switch much earlier!


    Don't be afraid of the late switch : you'll very quickly make amazing stuffs with Python and anyway it's (always) better late than never and it could be better now than some few years ago (I begin to make the switch about 3-4years ago and now I have the luck to work for a company where I'm 100% working with Python :)).
    Python3(.2+) effectively corrects some, I'd say, youth problems related to python2 and it's now quite highly deployed and about all majors libraries are already supporting it, if not they are about all on their way to do it sooner than later ;)


    > /mogul %-)


    good work/fun with Python,

    greg.
     
    gst, Dec 28, 2012
    #20
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