New to the idea of programming

T

Thai

I haven't done any my computer skills are limited to Web Design, Graphics design, some Dos scripting some very low level python. I've done some simple work with hardware I'm pretty web adept but I've never done any programming.
I was going to start working with Python but when I asked about development on the Android Developers group the response I got back said to try Java. Any help suggestions for someone starting unsure if Java or Python should be my path or if tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for starting out programming.

Thank you all in advance
 
T

Travers Naran

I haven't done any my computer skills are limited to Web Design,
Graphics design, some Dos scripting some very low level python. I've
done some simple work with hardware I'm pretty web adept but I've
never done any programming. I was going to start working with Python
but when I asked about development on the Android Developers group
the response I got back said to try Java. Any help suggestions for
someone starting unsure if Java or Python should be my path or if
tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for starting out
programming.

Thank you all in advance

Programming is hard. Ask yourself if there might not be some easier way
to make lots of money like becoming a lawyer or doctor.

If you hate brain teasers, puzzles and riddles, then you're not going to
like programming.

If you do want to become a programmer, then please read this blog:
http://the-programmers-stone.com/the-original-talks/ Follow the
original talks on the right-hand side. I don't consider his point of
view "ideal", but it will help you learn how to re-see the world.

If you don't know how to write a good program, especially in an
object-oriented manner, start with Python. It's more forgiving, gives
you instant feedback, and there's lots of "learning to program" websites
using Python.

Once you feel comfortable writing good programs, then pick up an
introductory Java book and DO ALL THE EXERCISES! Personally, I liked
the Sun Java tutorials.
 
A

Arved Sandstrom

I haven't done any my computer skills are limited to Web Design, Graphics design, some Dos scripting some very low level python. I've done some simple work with hardware I'm pretty web adept but I've never done any programming.
I was going to start working with Python but when I asked about development on the Android Developers group the response I got back said to try Java. Any help suggestions for someone starting unsure if Java or Python should be my path or if tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for starting out programming.

Thank you all in advance

Is this a career choice? If so, are you start of career or mid-career?
And also if so, are you looking to centre your career on programming, or
is this an enhancement to skills like you describe? Or is this a
interests & mental recreational choice?

AHS
 
N

Natalie

I haven't done any my computer skills are limited to Web Design,
Graphics design, some Dos scripting some very low level python. I've
done some simple work with hardware I'm pretty web adept but I've never
done any programming. I was going to start working with Python but when
I asked about development on the Android Developers group the response I
got back said to try Java. Any help suggestions for someone starting
unsure if Java or Python should be my path or if tackling both is a
good/bad idea Or even suggestions for starting out programming.

Thank you all in advance

You indicate you are interested in Android? I'm an Android programmer - I
have been doing it for a year and a half but when I started, I had very
little programming experience besides web design and some scripting.

I started very simply by reading through the Android Fundamentals section
on the developers website then loading up one of their examples and then
trying to change it. I then read a book that really helped me understand
object oriented programming, this is called "object thinking" by Dave
West. I recommend you read this, but only after having spent a couple of
months playing around with Android examples and other simple examples you
see on line and trying to make up your own simple apps, as this book will
benefit you more once you have already tried yourself to design an app in
Java (or any other OO lang). When reading existing code, limit yourself
to tutorials at first and make sure you understand each line. If
something is unclear, Google is your friend! Then you can read more
complicated tutorials and code examples, then you can progress to making
up your own from scratch.

To answer your other question, no, I wouldn't recommend starting with 2
languages at first. If you want to program apps for Android, start with
Java and the Android API. If you aren't sure what you want to program,
start with Python.

Good luck with your new adventure, it sure is fun!
 
S

Stefan Ram

TheGunslinger said:
However, many colleges and universities are using JAVA to introduce
the concepts of Object Oreiented Programming (OOP), and then moving up
to OOP with C++ after 1-2 semesters of JAVA.

A good start is to learn the name of the language: »Java«.
Java, BTW, is a case-sensitive language.
The beauty of both JAVA and C++ is there are IDE (Integrated
Development Environments) and SDK (Software Developer Kits) available
for free that are more standard to the ISO specs than others.

Beauty of a programming languages has nothing to do with
the availability of IDEs for it, but with the expressivity
of the language proper.
 
L

Lew

Guess you should take your own advice:: it is called the JDK >> JAVA
Developer Kit and NOT Java...

The name of the language is "Java". The "J" in "JDK" stands for
"Java", not "JAVA", and the "D" for "Development", not "Developer".
<http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/index.html>
"... the JDK (Java Development Kit), ... "

Note that "Java" is a trademark, and as such its spelling is rigidly
defined down to case. Note further that two minutes with the
trademark holder's web site straightens this question out.

Besides, do you have an anal fixation of correcting people and

Do you have an aversion to being correct? You should be falling all
over yourself thanking him, not being all snarky about it.

bullying them into your thought patterns so thay can repeat your
mistakes???

"Bullying"? That's what you're doing. All he did was provide correct
information. Thank him.
IMHO,

Funny.

Take your flames elsewhere, not appreciated or needed.

You are the one flaming. All he did was provide accurate technical
information, which is the purpose of this newsgroup. If you don't
want accurate technical information, you came to the wrong place,
mister.
 
M

markspace

No, HE started flaming...

His comments were totally OT to the question, JUST like yours.


There's no rule that says that all comments must be rigidly on topic.
Discussion here is wide ranging and frequently diverges into other areas
that are of interest to the posters.

It can be frustrating to be corrected, but it really is better to learn
to be accurate in your written communication. It's often the first
thing a potential employer or customer sees from you, and if your
spelling is incorrect and your choice of wording seems imprecise, it can
make a big negative impression. Do try to be correct at all times, it's
really is important for a professional Java programmer.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Guess you should take your own advice:: it is called the JDK>> JAVA
Developer Kit and NOT Java...

Maybe the 10 year olds in the school yard were impressed
when you came up with fast lies.

But no so in cljp.

SUN/Oracle call it "Java Development Kit".

Not all uppercase JAVA.

And not "Developer".
Besides, do you have an anal fixation of correcting people and
bullying them into your thought patterns so thay can repeat your
mistakes???

Well - he was not mistaken. You were.
Take your flames elsewhere, not appreciated or needed.

You started the flaming in this thread.

May I suggest that you take it elsewhere.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

I haven't done any my computer skills are limited to Web Design,
Graphics design, some Dos scripting some very low level python. I've
done some simple work with hardware I'm pretty web adept but I've
never done any programming. I was going to start working with Python
but when I asked about development on the Android Developers group
the response I got back said to try Java. Any help suggestions for
someone starting unsure if Java or Python should be my path or if
tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for starting out
programming.

If you want to program Android, then you should pick Java.

Start by learning general Java.

Buy a Java book and/or read the SUN/Oracle Java tutorial.

Then go to Android.

Again buy a book and/or use the material on the internet.

Arne
 
R

Roedy Green

I was going to start working with Python but when I asked about development=
on the Android Developers group the response I got back said to try Java. =
Any help suggestions for someone starting unsure if Java or Python should b=
e my path or if tackling both is a good/bad idea Or even suggestions for st=
arting out programming.

Java is more strict. It will teach you better habits and it will be
easier to figure out why your programs are not working. Python is a
sort of sloppy shorthand for quick and dirty rapid prototype
programming. That is an exaggeration, but I do that to make the
difference clear.

--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
To err is human, but to really foul things up requires a computer.
~ Farmer's Almanac
It is breathtaking how a misplaced comma in a computer program can
shred megabytes of data in seconds.
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Java is more strict. It will teach you better habits and it will be
easier to figure out why your programs are not working. Python is a
sort of sloppy shorthand for quick and dirty rapid prototype
programming. That is an exaggeration, but I do that to make the
difference clear.

Python as being useful for prototyping is one of those
myths that seems very persistent among programmers that
do not program in Python.

I don't think I have ever seen it used that way in real
life.

There is among other a small web site known as Youtube
that is based on Python.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

As well. Not "instead".

Unless the person is very academic, then I believe that
it would be best to actual start learning Java before
diving into the more philosophical views on programming.

Arne
 
J

Joshua Cranmer

Python as being useful for prototyping is one of those
myths that seems very persistent among programmers that
do not program in Python.

Python is indeed useful for prototyping, but that does not imply that it
not also useful for more powerful things.

Having done a great deal of work in Python, I find it is most useful for
smaller applications or scripts (and this includes web applications).
 
T

Travers Naran

Unless the person is very academic, then I believe that
it would be best to actual start learning Java before
diving into the more philosophical views on programming.

Then he will FAIL and become frustrated and give up. I've seen this
with my own two-eyes, Arne. Some people have a "natural" aptitude to
code, but most ordinary people do not, grow frustrated and give up.
Part of my day job is to help these people cross that threshold.

Much like art and music, it's an aptitude that has to be cultivated, and
the first step is to change the way you view the world. And actually,
it doesn't take that long. Or at least that long to read what you need
to know to begin reshaping the way you think.

I believe it is a myth that people are "natural born programmers". I
believe you can teach people to "see" how to solve a problem by
programming just as one can teach ordinary people to draw (Example:
"Drawing with the Right Side of the Brain") and play music.

I agree with you that Python is not a prototyping language -- it is a
full & proper language. But it has a low barrier to entry, you can make
good, useful programs from the get go, and the habits and "seeing" you
learn in Python is universal, IMHO.

Java is nice, but it's kind of like a programming language designed by
lawyers. There is a steeper learning curve before you can become
productive in Java because you have to know a whole lot of stuff before
you actually start learning Java. Just as there's a whole body of law
you need to learn before you can properly interpret the law.
 
A

Arved Sandstrom

It's not only that, but there are a whole load of hoops you have to jump
through to get anything done in Java. They may make sense to more experienced
programmers, who have the background to see /why/ the hoops are there (what
mistakes they are saving you from, what benefits they bring), but if you are
new to programming, then they are just extra "magic incantations" that you have
to learn.

Python is reasonably clean (unlike some popular dynamic languages), and
reasonably free from "hoops"; as such I can see good reasons to start with
Python if the aim is to become (or at least to make a start at becoming) a
/programmer/. Java looks like a poor place to start in comparison.

Of course, if the aim is to become a /Java programmer/ -- a much more
restricted, but much more targeted ambition -- then one can make a
correspondingly stronger case for starting with Java. Whether the benefits of
starting where you mean to end up overweigh the downsides of having to deal
with the mess from day one is open (at least, /I/ don't know of a killer
argument on either side).

-- chris

I generally agree with both you and Travers. I'll add this - Travers
mentioned "natural born programmers". There certainly _are_ a fair few
people with natural aptitude for programming, although they are a
minority of the population. Some have moderate aptitude, some great.
It's not related directly to IQ but to some creative variant of
problem-solving intelligence, I think, but I'm not getting into
that...what matters is that (1) many people don't get it at all, (2) a
few get it completely and quickly, and (3) some get it slowly but
adequately.

I surmise that with group #1 it doesn't matter anyway (and never will),
and with group #2 it doesn't matter much either. It's with group #3 -
the majority of working programmers - that it does make a difference
which language gets chosen first. And then arguments such as those
presented both of you come into play.

Personally, if I were teaching a novice with some promise, I'd pick
Python over Java as a starter language. IMO the ability of a person to
pick up adequate coding skills in at least 2 languages, within 6 months,
from a standing start, is an indicator of their future success. I get
worried about people who feel the need to start with Java because (1)
that's their target professional programming language, and (2) they
don't think they can handle more.

AHS
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Python is indeed useful for prototyping, but that does not imply that it
not also useful for more powerful things.

Having done a great deal of work in Python, I find it is most useful for
smaller applications or scripts (and this includes web applications).

I have seen it used for both scripts and web apps.

But I don't think I have ever seen it used for prototyping.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Personally, if I were teaching a novice with some promise, I'd pick
Python over Java as a starter language.

It will enable them to focus more on programming logic
than on data types and various rules for those.

But it is a double edged sword. They may be up for a pretty
bad experience when they move to a more strict language.
IMO the ability of a person to
pick up adequate coding skills in at least 2 languages, within 6 months,
from a standing start, is an indicator of their future success.

6 months is not much for learning programming.
I get
worried about people who feel the need to start with Java because (1)
that's their target professional programming language, and (2) they
don't think they can handle more.

If the driver for learning programming is a wish to program
their Android phone, then there are some logic in starting
with Java.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Then he will FAIL and become frustrated and give up. I've seen this with
my own two-eyes, Arne. Some people have a "natural" aptitude to code,
but most ordinary people do not, grow frustrated and give up. Part of my
day job is to help these people cross that threshold.

Most people actually learn programming by learning programming
not about what programming is.

So your claim that they will fail is observable false.
Much like art and music, it's an aptitude that has to be cultivated, and
the first step is to change the way you view the world. And actually, it
doesn't take that long. Or at least that long to read what you need to
know to begin reshaping the way you think.

That is not what young people interested in programming
want to learn.

Arne
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
473,744
Messages
2,569,482
Members
44,901
Latest member
Noble71S45

Latest Threads

Top